Prophesying and preaching the Gospel at a Psychic Fair
A group of IHOP–KC evangelists went to a psychic fair in Kansas City recently. They set up a table and began prophesying God’s destiny over approximately 100 people involved in New Age religion and witchcraft. God broke in and did amazing things. Since the weekend of the fair, people from the fair have contacted the evangelism team wanting to know where they can meet with them to recieve ministry, and several have been saved since. It was an exciting weekend, where the Lord moved and people were born again, including one of the mediums working the fair. Click below to read and listen to the testimonies. http://www.ihop.org/group/group.aspx?id=1000003885
Please read this article that I found on the IHOP website. There is so much wrong here that I can not begin to fathom it. Remember that the New Age Jesus is not the same as our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan comes as an angel of light and professes love and peace. I have highlighted many of the red flags in red….my comments in blue. I would like to add that it sounds as though some good came out of this, but hard to say.
***UPDATE*** IHOP has pulled this article from their website so the above link no longer works, but it is preserved here on my blog.
A Weekend with the Witches
By Ken DeBenedictis
I’ve been having these conversations with fellow believers about the “New Age
Movement” for years now. I know, I know… it’s evil. It’s deceptive. Witchcraft.
Demons. Cooties.. Look out their gonna get you..blah, blah, blah. I have to admit that the
very fact that it causes so much nervousness and controversy amongst the prophetic Body
of Christ makes me want to set my coordinates and head straight in. So when the
opportunity came for some friends and I to go to a Psychic Fair, I couldn’t have been
happier.
My friend, Erika had noticed an ad on a billboard announcing the fair and felt a tug from
the Lord to explore the idea of being involved. She gave me a call and the two of us
began to search out the contacts on the website that she read off the billboard. I gave the
organization a call and had a real interesting conversation with one of the head
organizers. He asked me who I was what I was wanting. I simply told him that we were a
network of friends called the “Mystics of Yeshua” ( this is deceptive) and that we wanted to be involved as
venders. He began to interview me and wanted to know just what kind of “vendors” we
were. Wisdom began to speak through me (to deceive another person?) and I explained that we work as a group of
interconnected “readers” and “seers” who channel Yeshua’s energy into people. We also
do aura cleansing. He seemed to like that answer and began to ask further about the
cleansing. I said that if people coming to us had any negative energy that they wanted to
get rid of, the pure light from Yeshua would remove any dark energy that they might be
carrying. I figured the answer was satisfactory, because the next thing out of his mouth
was him telling me we could have a section of the “reading room” and share it with the
other psychics and mediums.
“How much do you charge?” he asked.
“Uuhm…nothing”, I replied. “We believe that if you give this kind of service away free
of charge, it comes back to you somehow”.
He said he knew what I was talking about and put me on hold.
We exchanged information and were told the process of how to apply. Apparently the
registration was already past and this was a “unique situation” for the organization.
Nonetheless, within minutes I was told that we could have two tables and we could pretty
much set up the way we wanted. I thanked him very much for the opportunity and knew
right then that Yeshua was on the move.
Within two days we had assembled a team of eleven people through cell phones and
emails and gathered together at a coffee shop to get everyone on the same page. Our first
rule of thumb was no Christianese or church-language of any kind. (sounds like Willow Creek) If we were going to
get through to anyone in this environment, we had to speak THEIR language, not try to
make them understand ours. Speaking “energy” was a key and walking with Wisdom was
essential to this mission. In order to follow Him in this strategy, we truly had to be sheep
in wolves clothing.
Erika, Liz and myself arrived at the Community College where it was to be held and
strolled in past the crystal tables, wolf skins, and witchcraft how-to books. A hypnotic
toned base flute was playing in the background, as was the lingering smell of Nepalese
incense. It couldn’t have been more ideal. We found a stocked pond full of fish and we
were the only ones at this derby! We met the director of the fair and she told us that she
had been expecting us. We signed the code of ethics statement, which to my surprise
impressed me with their integrity more so than some of the prophetic ministries I have
been to. (?) We walked in with our gear to a wide-open expo center. There were stalls of
tarot card readers, psychics and mediums all around the edges of it with rows of chairs
for people to wait in the middle. I couldn’t help but think of some of the prophecy teams
that I have ministered with at prophetic conferences. Surprisingly, it was very similar in
appearance until I looked to my right to notice an albino woman’s eyes roll back in her
head as she read her cards for a nice young couple. Not exactly lining up with
1Corinthians 14:3, but it seemed to flow with the spirit of the thing. We proceeded over
to our area and by the director’s recommendation and grabbed two stalls next to each
other at a corner so that “our energies could stay together”. We politely thanked her for
her help and suggestions and began to set up shop. I looked over at Erika who was now
hugging one of the witches, and realized we had just entered into a large door of God’s
grace. It was truly remarkable how cooperative everyone was being and how much love
seemed to be exuding from us. The Lord was opening doors one right after the other.
It didn’t take long to get started. We put up our sign, anointed ourselves with oil and
prayed in tongues for a few minutes. When the time was right, Yeshua’s Spirit began to
lead people over one by one. Our first customers was a grandmother, mother, daughter
trio who sat there intently listening as Erika began to speak Word’s of Love into their
hungry hearts. It truly flowed like a river and within seconds woman number one was in
tears. We couldn’t believe how easy it was. Before long, a steady flow of people began to
come. We started getting in the groove pretty quick. We’d introduce ourselves, explain
what “Yeshua” meant, informed them that one person would be the “channel” while the
other would be the “oracle”. That there was no need for fear because it’s the same spirit
that’s working through both of us. We told them it would be pure love and light that they
would feel and to be open to receive it. Time quickly went by under this anointing and we
all felt the power of the Spirit upon us. I looked over at Liz who was now having a good
time with the folks, as she had her hands in the air trying to catch the next wave of Love
Energy. The wide-eyed couple across from her was whispering, “Yes, we feel it! Yes we
feel it”. It was quite a scene. The Lord was loving it. By now we were beginning to create
quite a buzz at the expo center and people began to ask about us to the people in charge
of the fair.
Like any good leadership group would do, they sent an inquiry.
“What is Yeshua?” a woman would ask.
We’d explain it in its most basic terms until; they decided that they too wanted a reading.
We knew we were being tested and gave them a quick prophetic word in the most loving
way we knew how. I didn’t think it was much, but apparently she did because within a
half hour we learned the registration people were sending people over to us. According to
them and a lot of the other readers, our energy was the “hottest”.
By the second day, we were in our flow. We now had three booths given to us and up to
five people ministering. My friend Doug who had stall number two had told me he had
never prophesied the way he was that day. His last customer had been prophesied over,
fell into conviction, (wow, this is actually good) accepted Yeshua, and was baptized in the Spirit in one shot. Many
were having similar experiences. I was finding that the majority of the people we were
talking to and “reading” were from denominational backgrounds and had never
considered this kind of thing coming from the “church”. It was truly amazing to learn just
how many people had been hurt by careless and uninformed pastors. I felt like for many
former Christians, this was their turning point. Many times, after “channeling” love
energy for a while, I would prophecy in the first person as if the Father was speaking to
His daughter or son. I’d begin to tell them about how I (or He) had made them, their
calling and their importance to Me (Him). How the Father had been there through any
specific hurt, wound or trauma in their lives and wanted to heal and wash them. That He
had now sent a prophet into their lives in a Psychic Fair to reach them in a personal way.
It was like an arrow being shot into their hearts. Tears of relief and joy rolled down the
cheeks of person after person. At one point, I looked over at all of our tables and noticed
every person was weeping.
One of those I spoke with reminded me of a female Bob Jones. I discerned she was a
psychic reader and began to prophesy accordingly. She gazed into my eyes intently as I
was speaking and then glared an evil glare. I stopped to look into her and told her that we
had a little negative energy problem and said that I would be not talking to her, but to it.
After sending Mr. Negative away in the name of Yeshua, the woman thanked me and I
continued to explain that her gift was a gift from Yeshua and that she had abused it. (this gift was not from Jesus!) That
instead of using it for the King of Kings, she had been using it to serve herself and the
spirit of Baal. Her eyes rolled back and she grinned a demon smile. But then the strangest
thing happened, as she seemed to come to her senses and looked at me as if for help.
Tears welled up in her eyes and she said that it had become so hard. She truly knew that
God had spoken to her and wanted to change. I told her that a prophet’s life was a hard
one and then we both started to weep as the Holy Spirit began to rest on us. I told her that
that the King was returning and sides were being taken. Who was she going to serve? I
looked into her eyes and I knew that for her to give this up meant that the demons would
kill her.( i have never heard this before) She grabbed my hand and thanked me and got up and left. I couldn’t believe
what the enemy was doing. It enraged me. There were so many of the Lord’s end-time
prophets stuck in the trap of sorcery and witchcraft. It made me all the more determined
to go in and pull out these trapped prophets.
Later that afternoon, Erica and I were approached by an older woman who had been a
reader/psychic in one of the other booths. She was about to go home for the day, but said
that something had made her come over to talk to us. My friend Liz had already
connected with her once and I knew that the Spirit had been working on her. She sat
down and Erika just bathed her in love and acceptance. I was ready to speak and the
Spirit began to swirl around my head. I know when this happens, it’s time to let ‘er rip. I
opened my mouth and began to speak the Word of the Lord to her. For some reason I
bypassed the “energy” language and spoke of Christ the King. How He was coming back
and that she was being called as a prophet to this nation. That she was loved and that the
Lord wanted her back home. Tears were streaming down her face as she wept in
repentance. She went on to say that as a Baptist, she was hurt by a pastor and never
returned. That someone had prophesied that her husband would lay hands on people and
see them get well. It had never been realized. I explained that the Lord had forgiven her
and was calling her to serve Him. Today. Right now. She nodded in agreement and the
Lord told me to anoint her with oil right there. I told her that I was accountable to God if
I did this and wanted a real commitment. I wasn’t playin’. I signaled for LeeAnna who
was sitting at the table next to us, to help us. She came over and the three of us baptized
this dear woman in the Holy Spirit for everyone to see. I continued to prophecy over her
life and spoke of how God had had spoken to her at thirteen years of age about so and so
and this and that. After we had finished, her eyes as big as saucers, she said that no one
but God would know what I had just said. (or the demons) She went on to explain that she had given her
life to the Lord at thirteen and He was reminding her of that. The swirl of the Spirit was
all over everyone. She cried, we prayed, and she said that she had been dreading the car
ride home, but now she couldn’t wait to talk with the Lord. She got up drunk in the Holy
Spirit and went home to do some “house cleaning”. The next morning at the fair, I arrived
to the expo to see the directors of the fair taking her belongings and her name badge out
of her booth. Joan had retired from her practice. She was now a prophet to Yeshua.
There were many other stories of salvations and tears. There were miraculous words of
knowledge and battles in the spirit. I even had a conversation in tongues with a witch. It
was pretty awesome. All in all, we all felt the Lord’s heart for people following the New
Age movement and how He is building teams like ours to go and plunder the enemy’s
camp. It just goes to show you that where the darkness is darkest, the brightness of His
light shines that much brighter. Let’s not miss these opportunities to shine.
The people who walked in darkness have seen a great Light; those who dwelt in the
land of the shadow of death, upon them a Light has shined. You have multiplied the
nation and increased it’s joy; they rejoice before You according to the joy of
harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
Isaiah 9:2-3
DiscernIt 
46 comments
Comments feed for this article
December 30, 2007 at 12:47 am
Bill
Kim,
Thought I’d seen it all. Again, the doctrine of “reclaimation.”
I cannot find that exact article on the IHOP website. Did you pdf a copy?
-Bill
December 30, 2007 at 12:51 am
Bill
found it; never mind!
December 30, 2007 at 2:00 am
BereanOnTheWall
Kim,
My jaw hung open almost the whole time I read this!!
When I was still involved in the prophetic movement, but questioning the godliness of what I was involved in, I was working out at the Y and CSI came on the TV where I was.
A psychic reading was the opening scene. I sat there on the floor with my mouth hanging open, like while reading this, because the reading was EXACTLY THE SAME as the ‘prayer nights’ where we’d pray and get a ‘word’ for someone.
This article made me sick. Im sure the arguement for this type of thing would be that they went into the world and shared Christ to them.
Reading the language of ‘energy’ and ‘channelling’ and other stuff says otherwise. Also, Jesus never was afraid to offend the sorcerers! These people were.
They were deceptive from the word go by telling these people they were the Mystics of Yeshua!
HOW DISGUSTING TO BLASPHEME MY GOD’s NAME IN SUCH A WAY!!!
It makes me sick to my stomach to know that this is considered victory in the camp of IHOP when clearly they were decieving these people even more.
MAybe a new acronym for them should be International House of Occult ‘Prophets.’
December 30, 2007 at 2:16 am
Mary
BOTW,
MAybe a new acronym for them should be International House of Occult ‘Prophets.’
I’ll agree with that!!
December 30, 2007 at 7:36 am
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December 30, 2007 at 10:55 am
Kim
The disciples willingly suffered for His name by telling the truth of the gospel, which does offends the world.
They truly preached Christ crucified.
I still am terribly shook up by this article, and i may always.
December 30, 2007 at 9:43 pm
IWanthetruth
After sending Mr. Negative away in the name of Yeshua, the woman thanked me and I continued to explain that her gift was a gift from Yeshua and that she had abused it. (this gift was not from Jesus!) That instead of using it for the King of Kings, she had been using it to serve herself and the spirit of Baal.
I brought this question up at another site regarding this… Do you think this is getting a little to close to the possibility of the unpardonable sin.? I mean the “gifts” are from the Holy Spirit and they are saying that she was abusing them and they are in essence saying thses gifts came from God.
December 31, 2007 at 2:54 am
Kim
Boy..i don’t know. Blasphemy would be calling the Holy Spirit an evil spirit. It was acknowledged that she was a psychic and psychics get their information from “spirit guides” (demons). He said he removed the demon, oh yeah, excuse me….Mr. Negative..(give me a break). To me this is the deceived, saving the deceived into deceit.
They are imagining that their counterfeit gifts are from the Holy Spirit. The bible does say that the time will come when evil will be called good, and good, evil.
Since i don’t believe either have true gifts from God, i do not think that the Holy Spirit is being blasphemed, except for the fact the Holy Spirit is being rejected over and over again….in favor of a beguiling and seductive spirit.
But what a mess compromising the scriptures makes…
December 31, 2007 at 3:04 am
zackhensley
Can I simply step in and say this. Not speaking for IHOP, but this event was a small few young beleivers, who have just started understanding the Lord. They are not leaders at IHOP, nor was the Physic fair an IHOP sponsered activity. I am mentoring one of the ones that got saved and taking them through biblical doctrine, the cross etc.
this was an event by people ignorant of what I think is concerning, you and the things that concern me. but they are really young, full of zeal and learning.
I just wanted to wiegh that in. that this wasn’t deception but a lack of understanding.
bless you all
December 31, 2007 at 4:53 am
Kim
I just got through listening to the MP3 recording on the Forerunner site. This is from a Monday Night Forerunner meeting.
The testimony of the psychic fair starts at minute 8 of the 15:10 minutes. The leader told people to silence their cells phone that they were going to start recording. Here are some comments from my transcription.
“the majority of the people here, went”,
we decided to “go in as mediums and psychics” (laughter),
we told people “we channel the energy of Yeshua’s love force into a person and it dispels the negative into the positive” (laughter).
“we went in and put up our sign, Mystics of Yeshua.”
“we explained who we were…we were seers and readers.”
“Liz had a great time. Liz was playing with them…’oooh, oooh, i feel the energy’ (laughter)….totally messing with them..(laughter, laughter) It was great.” (more laughter)
“the prophecy was coming so easy, names, dates.. Bob Jone’sy stuff was happening.”
“we would speak to the negative energy..we would see the demons behind the eyes..stuff..and just cast them out and tell them look…this is what is happenin’, you need Yeshua’s energy right now and we would explain to them…in a subtle way….the gospel..and it was good.”
“psychics were coming over ‘hey can you do me?”‘
**************
This sounded like an official meeting with leaders. All of this was laughed about and encouraged.
December 31, 2007 at 6:41 am
Mary
Zach,
I attended the end of a spiritualist conference once with several christians to talk to some of the attendees. It was extremely spiritually oppressive and heavy. And it was very troubling and sad.
I find this whole post above discusting. There is no way you can justify this behavior.
If these ihoppers/phony prophets went expressing tears and and broken spirit to see their fellow mankind in bondage to satan and begged God to open their eyes then I would have sympathy. But their attitude is just pathetic. I don’t care how young they are. They are not prophets. They are not to be corrected. They are not true believers but phony converts. They should hit their knees in repentance for misrepresenting God. They have not demonstrated they even understand the Gospel of God’s grace and mercy. You are just rationalizing man. IHOP is apostate. It’s plain to see.
December 31, 2007 at 7:58 am
Kim
“They are not leaders at IHOP, nor was the Physic fair an IHOP sponsered activity. “
Zach, i hate to be a stickler for details but Ken Debenedictis wrote the article and was the one who gave the testimony on the MP3
Below i copied this right off the IHOP website and it says Ken is in charge of the Prophetic Evangelism Training…Justin is also mentioned on the MP3 and he was there also………so what gives?
http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?id=1000003881
View Monthly Calendar
Click Here
Tuesday – Friday:
Forerunner Evangelism Community Prayer Meeting (everyone welcome)
9-10AM in the “Evangelism Prayer” side room in the Global Prayer Room
Mondays:
Worship, Prayer and Teaching for Evangelists at IHOP (Hal Linhardt)
10AM–Noon at the Herrnhut Clubhouse—forty minute segments of worship, prayer and teaching. We do not meet the first Monday of the month because of the Global Bridegroom Fast.
Prophetic Evangelism Training (Ken DeBenedictis & team)
7-9PM in the Seminar Room (except GBF)
Prophetic Evangelism Outreach (Justin Perry)
6-9PM (every other Thursday) Meet in front of Higher Grounds. E-mail justinperry@ihop.org for schedule/ details.
December 31, 2007 at 11:07 am
Peg
The mind boggles.
First a caveat: I am not into, and I do not encourage, the kind of activity described in the article. It sounds to me almost like fighting ‘black magic’ with ‘white magic’. The Holy Spirit is not magic and should not be treated as such. Having said that…
Kim wrote: I would like to add that it sounds as though some good came out of this, but hard to say.
And zackhensley wrote: I am mentoring one of the ones that got saved and taking them through biblical doctrine, the cross etc.
It sounds to me like Kim might be right.
Many years ago I knew a couple who got out of the New Age movement after being witnessed to by a bunch of new age Episcopalians (sad to say there are such). They eventually found their way to a Bible-teaching Episcopal church and when they did they renounced the first church they had joined. BUT they always said no other church would have been able to reach them at that time… the fact that the church leaned heavily to the new age was just enough to pull them out of the New Age movement and get them started moving towards Jesus, seeking Him out. It sounds to me like maybe something like that has happened here.
NOT that I recommend this form of evangelism! Just sometimes God uses us in our cluelessness, moving in truly mysterious ways.
December 31, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Kim
Peg, you are right about the one person. Let us hope that the gospel given to this person is pure and biblical and not steeped in dominionism as most prophetic ministries are.
The damage is done though by the example shown that there is little difference between Christians and the rest of the world. Jesus was demoted to a Mr. Positive, instead of Lord of Lords and Savior. The main problem was that the psychics would only be turning from one spirit to another. All they had to do was rename their spirit guide Jesus. Oh yes, they like this type of Christianity, for it is not true Christianity.
Wiccans say that their magic is white magic but in truth whether it is black or white it is divination. Hopefully this person who is being mentored will reject the divinations of IHOP, and truly be regenerate, turning away from sin and lies.
January 1, 2008 at 2:15 am
BereanOnTheWall
I see the danger of this type of ‘evangelism’ *not even sure I want to use that word* in this way:
If someone gets saved in this way. They practice the ‘good’ kind of divination for a good while, usually while being fed a proof texted version of Scripture.
Then say they meet up with other Christians from some other church and these people point out the not-so-goodness of what they are doing.
They have a seed of doubt planted in their hearts. They can do one of three things with it.
1. Change to God’s REAL will
2. Brush it off and continue to go on with what they had been doing all along.
3. Drop Christianity altogether because nobody can tell what God wants and its all too confusing anyway.
It seems rather extreme, but I was a Christian before I entered the divine practices of the prophetic movement. After realizing I was involved in witchcraft, I ALMOST dumped Christianity altogether because it was all messed up from whatever direction I tried to look at it *until I started reading the Bible in its context rather than chopped up by the gurus I sat under.*
I can see the possibility for a lot of people losing their faith in Christ after being, more or less, duped into thinking what they were doing was a God-given gift because some ‘Christian’ told them it was.
Amanda <
January 1, 2008 at 2:16 am
BereanOnTheWall
Oh, I forgot to add– that they further endanger other Christians and potential Christians by spreading the lies they were taught.
Its a very difficult situation.
January 1, 2008 at 7:26 am
Mary
It is really tough to build on a faulty foundation. I have a loved one who came out of a legalistic pentecostal background. I sometimes wish he had come from a pagan upbringing with no church experience. It is really hard to help someone really love the Lord and convince them God is great when they are taught God is this way…. and it diminishes how awe inspiring He is.
We have a new building at the hospital I work at. It cost millions to build but they can’t open it due to a crack in the foundation. It can’t clear inspection and is unsafe. So it sits there useless. Think it’s no big deal to falsely speak for God when He hasn’t spoken? “But Lord, didn’t we prophesy and do great miracles in your name?”
January 1, 2008 at 11:56 am
Peg
Truly… it’s easier to teach someone the right way the first time than to have to un-teach them the wrong way.
Apart from that the prophetic/radical pentecostal movement just plain gives me the heebee-jeebees. I could never figure out why anyone would give it the time of day. I don’t mean that as a criticism of the folks who have come out of it, I’m just curious… don’t people get a creepy feeling when they run into this stuff? Is it just me who gets a hair-standing-up-on-back-of-neck reaction? Or is it only after years of knowing the Lord that it begins to feel creepy?
January 2, 2008 at 1:18 am
endtimespropheticwords
They are right in saying it is Bob Jones stuff – they discern the spirits after all! The guy who infamously claimed Jesus said he had to either kill or forgive x number of people to get his mind back when he was in insane asylum, and that somehow overnight the tormenting demons became angels of light. Angels of light they are…..but not of the Lord Jesus Christ. Tis amazing how many psychic stuff is about ‘white light’ etc.
These Christians at IHOP are well meaning but decieved. The Holy Spirit is a plaything and not a Lord.
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com
January 2, 2008 at 2:36 am
Kim
I have re-asked Zach for an answer here: http://zackhensley.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/the-wise-and-foolish-builder-intentions-vs-reality/#comments
Hopefully he will.
January 2, 2008 at 4:14 am
Mary
Peg,
Yes, I too get the creeps when I read about these psuedo prophets who use sorcery and new age methods (some unknowingly). But mostly i just get raving mad. There is no reasoning with them. They are under a strong delusion I believe. Kim and mbaker, you rock. And Miriam, I don’t know how you deal so patiently with all the Juanita Byrum, Kenneth Copeland, Bob Jones, (incert name here) psuedo prophet lovers on your blog.
January 2, 2008 at 4:52 am
Peg
Mary — thanks, I’m glad to know it’s not just me. 😉
re: “Bob Jones stuff” — Huh? I must have missed something. How is Bob Jones mixed up in all this? Are we talking about the same Bob Jones, as in ultra-Baptist, as in the University of same name?
etpw wrote: The Holy Spirit is a plaything and not a Lord.
…or, to rephrase, the Holy Spirit is Lord and should not be treated as a plaything. Totally agree. I’ll go one step further: the Holy Spirit is not something to be “experimented with”. I’ve read too many charismatic things that say essentially “try it and see what happens”. Ummm… no. The Spirit is a Person, both God and Friend, and should be treated with all the respect and dignity one can muster. Have a question? Ask Him. Don’t just start experimenting.
January 2, 2008 at 5:43 am
Mary
The Spirit is a Person, both God and Friend, and should be treated with all the respect and dignity one can muster.
Very well put Peg. I think that is what makes me so angry with the post and I couldn’t quite put my finger on it- the lack of respect and a play thing one can use. See what happens? as if the Holy Spirit can be used by anyone or experimented with like a science project.
January 2, 2008 at 6:06 am
Kim
Peg,
This is from apologetics research
Jones, Bob
One of the Kansas City Prophets. Seen by some as the most controversial of the Kansas City Prophets. Was removed from the Vineyard Anaheim because of sexual improprieties, which consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand “naked before the Lord” in order to receive a “word.” Still active today, with the abundant support of Rick Joyner. Jones is a major proponent of Latter Rain and Manifest Sons theology.
Here is a current prophecy from Bob Jones:
http://www.whitedoveministries.org/content/ArchivesItem_11_370_v
Shepherd’s Rod January 2008
This next season will see many groups who are seemingly polar extremes apart nevertheless come together for a common cause to advance the Kingdom. There will be an anointing and emphasis on this aspect of God’s plan. We must begin to recognize one another according to the spirit more so than the flesh. There is a plumbline of truth that is going to be delegated in this generation. Many diverse groups will rally around that plumbline as a platform for spiritual unity. That does not imply that we relinquish our identity or cultural differences but incorporate them together with a spirit of harmony.
********************************
Okay…please read these…please…please
“It is time that the church woke up to its true mission, which is to materialize the kingdom of God on earth, today, here and now. People are no longer interested in a possiby heaven state or a probable hell. They need to learn that the kingdom is here, and must express itself on earth. The way into that kingdom is the way that Christ trod. It involves the sacrifice of the personal self for the good of the world and service of humanity.*
The churches in the West need to realize that basically there is only one church, but it is not necessarily only the orthodox Christian institution; God works in many ways, through many faiths and religious agencies;in their union will the fullness of truth be revealed. **
Our need today is to see the hidden thread of purpose. This spiritual awakening is already here, and the will to good is present.***
**********************************
Do these quotes sound similar to Bob Jones?
Here are the authors.
Alice Bailey and Dwhal Khul
Bailey is an occultist who channeled Khul, one of the four who are claiming to be the Ascended Masters.
This is THE DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.
And Bob Jones is saying the very same things…..I am hitting my fist on the desk here..i get so frustrated. These false prophets are channeling demons…aarrgh…
January 2, 2008 at 6:37 am
JeN
I have wondered if there is such a thing as a modern day prophet. I tend to think not. I had a friend who was mixed up in all of this prophectic stuff, especially the Kansas City guys and said I could be a prophet too, I just needed to go to prophet school. She said I would be the perfect prophet because I see the world in black and white. Okeydokey, I’ll pass thanks.
January 2, 2008 at 8:30 am
Mary
By old testiment standards it wasn’t so easy to be a prophet. Nor was it common. I mean now every Tom, Dick,and Harry can be one. Hmmm. But then again, that’s just that old moldy book called the Bible. Experience is now the plumbline. Heck, and you only have to get it right 66% of the time these days.
January 2, 2008 at 8:42 am
Kim
I don’t think the office of prophet is really for today. Although to prophecy can mean two things, to speak the word of God, or to predict. This is what i understand from the greek translation, anyway.
January 2, 2008 at 9:02 am
Lee
Kim,
I agree that prophecy is both to predict (foretell) or speak the word of God (forthtell). OT prophet’s function was to foretell of the Messiah and to give admonishment/warning to Judah and Israel. With the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies in our Lord Jesus and the canonization of NT scripture, foretelling for the corporate church at large is no longer necessary.
Here’s a definition of prophet from studylight.org:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4396
Hebrews 1:1-4, “1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.”
As Mark Jr. has pointed out on his own blog (Hand Me A Scalpel) and over in a comment on Sign Of Jonah, Paul Washer is a great example of a forthtelling prophet. He is definitely a spokesman of GOD. And, Kim, your recent post on Charles Haddon Spurgeon exemplifies another true forthtelling prophet.
January 2, 2008 at 9:14 am
Kim
Oh..i even listened to the pronunciation.
Yes, i love the examples of Washer and Spurgeon as forthtelling prophets.
Hey, thanks for the site.
January 2, 2008 at 9:22 am
Lee
You’re welcome! Studylight is a great all around reference. I use it primarily for the Interlinear Bible and Lexicon; but, there’s so much more to it.
January 2, 2008 at 11:45 am
Anonymous
Kim — thanks for the definition. Definitely not the same Bob Jones I’ve heard of. This KC Prophets (why does this sound like a football team?) thing is all new to me. The Bob Jones I was thinking of is more ultra-Baptist than I’m comfortable with but he’s still within the realm of orthodoxy.
Quotation: This next season will see many groups who are seemingly polar extremes apart nevertheless come together for a common cause to advance the Kingdom.
I think this is true, but not in the way he means it or for the same reasons. Anyone who thinks mixing Christianity with other religions is progress is missing the mark entirely. What IS true, in my opinion, is that as the denominational churches die out, the faithful remnants will join forces in ways never imagined in previous generations. Not exactly what he had in mind, I think… 😉
BTW good stuff on the definitions of prophecy. My pastor is a “forth-teller” and it’s an amazing gift of the Spirit, especially face-to-face. What I find remarkable about those moments is how QUIET they are… nothing showy, nothing out of the ordinary (other than he’s just told me something he would never have figured out on his own)… do a double-take and you’ve missed it.
IMO that’s the difference between “real” spiritual gifts and “fake” ones: the real thing draws attention to God and His truth, not to the gift itself or to the one using it.
January 2, 2008 at 11:47 am
Peg
Oops, sorry, forgot to log in again, that was me on the post above!
January 3, 2008 at 5:53 am
Kim
Lee, Good try on Zach’s blog. As usual if you use scripture…the conversation becomes “ridiculous”, and it comes to a halt.
http://zackhensley.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/the-wise-and-foolish-builder-intentions-vs-reality/#comment-6102
Here is another wrinkle.
Zach has contemplative material on his website
On his other website
http://www.zackhensley.com/ministry.htm he states he prays 60 hours a week. But look at these names on his library page.
http://www.zackhensley.com/libary.htm
St. Teresa of Avila
St. John of the Cross
Brother Lawrence
Watchman Nee
Look at Lighthouse trails for info of these Mystics
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/christianmysticspast.htm
This may explain a few things.
January 3, 2008 at 7:27 am
Kim
Ha…the KC Prophets football team!
Go team Go
Sometimes you’re in the know.
Hey, it’s off to spiritual war
66% of the time you score.
Go team Go
January 3, 2008 at 8:06 am
Lee
Kim,
Well, we tried! Too bad the scripture was “condemning.”
I’m not surprised to see the Catholic mystics in his library. These books are quite popular over at IHOP.
January 3, 2008 at 10:06 am
Peg
There y’all go on the Catholic mystics again. *sigh* Not everything they said was wrong… here are some examples…
from St. Teresa of Avila
“Let nothing disturb thee, nothing affright thee; all things are passing; God never changeth.”
“It is love alone that gives worth to all things”
“Remember that you have only one soul; that you have only one death to die; that you have only one life… If you do this, there will be many things about which you care nothing.”
“From silly devotions and from sour-faced saints, good Lord, deliver us.” (Teresa had a wonderful sense of humor… 😉 )
“Granting that we are always in the presence of God, yet it seems to me that those who pray are in His presence in a very different sense; for they, as it were, see that He is looking upon them, while others may go for days on end without even once recollecting that God sees them.”
“However much we do to avoid them, we shall never lack crosses in this life if we are in the ranks of the Crucified.”
“To argue over who is the more noble is nothing more than to dispute whether dirt is better for making bricks or for making mortar.”
From St. John of the Cross
“In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone.”
“In tribulation immediately draw near to God with confidence, and you will receive strength, enlightenment, and instruction.”
“He who interrupts the course of his spiritual exercises and prayer is like a man who allows a bird to escape from his hand; he can hardly catch it again.”
“The soul is wearied and fatigued by its desires… the desires disturb it, allowing it not to rest in any place or in any thing… the desires and indulgence in them all cause it greater emptiness and hunger.”
“In the Son of God are hidden all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.”
January 3, 2008 at 10:15 am
Peg
And here are a few from Brother Lawrence.
(Watchman Nee is all yours, LOL)
“We ought not to be weary of doing little things for the love of God, who regards not the greatness of the work, but the love with which it is performed. ”
“There is not in the world a kind of life more sweet and delightful than that of a continual walk with God.”
“To worship God in spirit and truth means to worship God as we ought to worship Him. God is Spirit, so we must worship Him in spirit and truth, that is, by a humble and true adoration of spirit in the depth and center of our souls.”
“The whole substance of religion is faith, hope, and love…. Many things are possible for the person who has hope. Even more is possible for the person who has faith. And still more is possible for the person who knows how to love. But everything is possible for the person who practices all three virtues.”
“What should we set as our ultimate goal in this life? The answer: the most perfect worshipers of God we can possibly be…. “
January 3, 2008 at 10:34 am
Kim
From this web site:
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/t/teresa_of_avila_st.html
St Teresa of Avila
During such prayers she frequently went into a trance, and at times entered upon mystical flights in which she would feel as if her soul were lifted out of her body. She said ecstasy was like a “detachable death” and her soul became awake to God as never before when the faculties and senses are dead.
St. Teresa being a contemplative (see Contemplation) is well known for her discussion on the grades of prayer through which the soul is focused upon the love of God passes before reaching the “central mansion” of the soul, where Christ lives.
From this web site:
http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/JC.html
John lived a life of the most personal, intimate life of unity of God through his imitation of Jesus Christ. As previously mentioned, St John of the Cross’ life was, in part, a composite of all of the below beliefs:
Catholicism
Christianity
Judaism
Islam
Buddhist
Hindu
Earth-Based
January 3, 2008 at 10:55 am
Kim
From:
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brotherlawrence.htm
“Dancing Violently Like a Madman”
“The fact that Brother Lawrence was in the Carmelite order means his spiritual practices were derived from or heavily influenced by Teresa of Avila who reformed that order in the previous century.In a book titled Christian Mystics, Professor Ursula King makes the startling revelation that:
[G]iven her [Teresa of Avila] partly Jewish background, her thinking was also affected by Jewish Kabbalistic mysticism, elements of which can be detected in her writings.
Brother Lawrence is often quoted by contemplative authors for his habit of what he called “practicing the presence of God.” But what was the actual nature of this presence? Was it something that would reflect the true character of God? I find the following account from a devout advocate of Brother Lawrence both questionable and disturbing:
It is said of Brother Lawrence that when something had taken his mind away from love’s presence he would receive “a reminder from God” that so moved his soul that he “cried out, singing and dancing violently like a mad man.” You will note that the reminders came from God and were not his own doing. (Gerald May, The Awakened Heart (New York, NY:HarperCollins, First HarperCollins Paperback Edition, 1993) p. 87, citing from The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence, translated by John Delaney, Image Books, 1977, p. 34.)
Brother Lawrence says that secret conversations with God must be “repeat[ed] often in the day,” and “for the right practice of it, the heart must be empty of all other things.” He speaks of the trouble of wandering thoughts and says that the habit of practicing the presence of God is the �one remedy” and the “best and easiest method” he knows to dissolve distractions. (from A Time of Departing, 2nd ed., p. 146-147)
*****************
Do any of these mystics offer scripture as a basis or do they just throw out phrases like “draw near to God”?
All the above quotes you are gave are..lovely, but do they point to Jesus Christ and repentance? Do they say that one needs to do God’s will by following instruction in the Holy Bible?
Did St. John have this composite of beliefs? Then it is occult, because the main purpose of occult unity is to join all beliefs as one, as preparation for the anti-christ kingdom which is at this time being assembled here on earth before our very eyes.
I am not very interested in any philosophers or great thinkers, or “religious” leaders at this time. Unless they provide scripture to back up what they are saying….
It is becoming easier and easier for me as i am learning, to pick-up and discern false teachings as they are directly applied to the word of God.
“The whole substance of religion is faith, hope, and love…. Many things are possible for the person who has hope. Even more is possible for the person who has faith. And still more is possible for the person who knows how to love. But everything is possible for the person who practices all three virtues.”
Now i have a problem with this because there is no repentance and judgment for the lost. God is a God of Love but He will come IN JUDGMENT. The wishy-washy statement above is not convicting anyone to holiness. It is just a feel good message like the rest of the apostate teachings.
January 3, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Peg
Kim —
For starters, we need to let the saints speak for themselves. The evaluations of historians and theologians, whether positive or negative, are never accurate.
Do any of these mystics offer scripture as a basis or do they just throw out phrases like “draw near to God”?
The scriptural foundation is assumed, not written out.
All the above quotes you are gave are..lovely, but do they point to Jesus Christ and repentance?
They’re not meant to. Again, a foundation of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, confession, forgiveness of sins, etc are assumed… the saints are building on the basics, not repeating them. When I teach a class in Access databases I don’t start by reviewing how to turn a computer on, I assume the folks in my class already know that.
Do they say that one needs to do God’s will by following instruction in the Holy Bible?
Yes. From the Carmelite Rule of Life (what members of the order must agree to in order to join):
“The sword of the spirit, the word of God, must abound in your mouths and hearts. Let all you do have the Lord’s word for accompaniment.”
-and-
“Christ is the center of our lives and of Christian experience. Members of the Order are called to live the demands of following Christ in union with Him, by accepting His teachings and devoting themselves to Him. To follow Jesus is to take part in His saving mission of proclaiming the Good News and the establishment of God’s Kingdom (Mt 4:18-19).”
I am not very interested in any philosophers or great thinkers, or “religious” leaders at this time. Unless they provide scripture to back up what they are saying….
Again, scriptural foundation is assumed, not written out. I don’t agree with everything the Carmelites teach, any more than I agree with everything Calvin taught… but it would be foolish to throw out the words of the wise and educated simply because they don’t quote a scripture verse after every statement they make.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Setting aside the Carmelites for a moment, re: the last quotation on faith, hope, and love… both Jesus and Paul are very clear on this teaching.
“Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matt. 22:37-40)
Paul writes: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. …these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” (I Cor. 13:1-3, 13)
In Jesus’ words, love for God and for others is the entire summary of the law and prophets. Are you finding fault with Him?
January 3, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Kim
“For starters, we need to let the saints speak for themselves. The evaluations of historians and theologians, whether positive or negative, are never accurate.”
Okay this is fine with me….let us from now on use only scripture and use more scripture to interpret. Many are following saints and teachings that do not use scripture in this way.
“I find the following account from a devout advocate of Brother Lawrence both questionable and disturbing:”
I have read nothing that says this account is not true. How do we know the false prophets? By their fruits.
“Again, scriptural foundation is assumed, not written out. I don’t agree with everything the Carmelites teach, any more than I agree with everything Calvin taught… but it would be foolish to throw out the words of the wise and educated simply because they don’t quote a scripture verse after every statement they make.”
In these days and time i never assume anything. This is very dangerous. About the words of the wise, the Bible says:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
“In Jesus’ words, love for God and for others is the entire summary of the law and prophets. Are you finding fault with Him?”
I disagree with this statement because it eliminates the cross. In fact this statement sounds like something from a new-ager. This is a wonderful passage and it is true, but it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can you take a passage from Corinthians and declare it the entire summary of the law and prophets?
So i am wondering…what is the difference between these mystics and IHOP’s Mystics of Yeshua? I believe that these kids have been receiving false teachings and these books that are in the library of a YOUTH LEADER are part of the problem.
January 3, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Mary
” I disagree with this statement because it eliminates the cross. In fact this statement sounds like something from a new-ager. This is a wonderful passage and it is true, but it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can you take a passage from Corinthians and declare it the entire summary of the law and prophets?”
Kim, you make some very important points. Some of what the mystics may say is technically true. But it is what they don’t say that condenms them as heretics. For example “God is love” but that is not the gospel. The catholic mystics have an escewed view of God and little wonder since they accept the apocrypha. They are embracing some of the truths of God’s character and ignoring the rest. They are not preaching the gospel and the whole counsel of God.
January 5, 2008 at 7:48 am
Peg
On love vs. gospel — it depends on the audience which is appropriate.
In evangelism, the gospel — the cross, sin, forgiveness, and salvation — is absolutely essential. This assumes an audience of non-Christians.
In discipleship, love — the greatest of the commandments — must be the cornerstone and foundation for living the Christian life. This assumes an audience of believing Christians. It is not necessary to present the gospel over and over again to people who are already saved.
The question is: which audience are we addressing? Are we looking to make converts of nonbelievers, or are we looking to teach believers?
June 27, 2008 at 10:46 am
Summer
LANGUAGE and CALLINGS
What is important to understand is language… you cannot pick apart “phrases” and “words” without knowing what is meant by them. Also, it is easy to pick apart another denominations language when you don’t understand practicality behind the words.
What was probably meant by saying that she was using her pyshic gift for evil instead of for the King of Kings; was that God had an orginal calling on her life to be a “seer”. Saul went to see a seer of Satan, when Samuel had died – and she actually conjured up Samuels spirit – which rebuked him.
Then there are seers of God, “2 Samuel 24:11 (NIV) “Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer:” Samuel himself was a seer (1 Chronicles 26:28). “I am the seer,” Samuel replied.” (1 Samuel 9:17-19)
A seer is God’s calling for her and instead of using the Holy Spirit for her anointing she is using evil spirits. But she was made by God right? Satan certainly did not create her! And God creates us with specific personalities which are embedded with our callings and anointings. God is not flowing through her! But if she surrenders her life to Jesus then she would be a prophet instead of a pyshic. Because God would use her calling that he put in her – and that is why her ungodly self is attracted to the supernatural in the first place – because a Godly seer/prophet is was what He created her to be.
How do you suggest reaching pyshics and fortune-tellers? Yes, there is more to learn and refine… that is always a given. But this group from IHOP is trying and as you can see succeeding in reaching out and showing God’s love to people. You might want to hear the name “Jesus” but Yeshua was His original name anyway! “Jesus” is our translation – so that we can understand! What translation do you suggest to make these fortune-tellers understand?
The body of Christ needs to stop picking each others phrases apart and look at our hearts. This groups heart is right, when we come together we will realize that our different wordings mean the same thing… we are on the same page of the book… we are just reading in different translations.
June 27, 2008 at 11:18 am
Lee
Summer,
What was probably meant by saying that she was using her pyshic gift for evil instead of for the King of Kings; was that God had an orginal calling on her life to be a “seer”.
A seer is God’s calling for her and instead of using the Holy Spirit for her anointing she is using evil spirits.
How could anyone know that besides God? Just because someone calls on evil spirits for fortune telling or whathaveyou does not mean this individual is called of God to be one of God’s prophets.
What all these folks at the fair — and any nonbeliever — needs is the Gospel preached to them. Plain and simple. It’s our job to preach, it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict of sin leading to repentance and ultimately salvation.
August 2, 2011 at 7:12 am
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