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Todd Friel Interviews Doug Pagitt of the Emergent Church
11/17/07 UPDATE:::: I found someone who transcribed the entire interview…Read it here http://www.robwillmann.com/blog/2008/07/10/wotm-radio-transcript-todd-friel-interviews-doug-pagitt/ A reader sent me two audio interviews of Doug Pagitt of Solomon’s Porch in Minnesota. Todd Friel is the interviewer from Way of the Master Radio. I have already posted an article about this church here: https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2007/09/20/solomons-porch-an-emerging-church/ I do not want to clump all emergents in one defining category or imply all their theology is like Pagitt’s but all emerging churches seem to be involved in either mysticism, contemplative spirituality, a road back to Rome, universalism, ecumenism, or adding Jesus’ name to another religion. Please listen to these audios:
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These comments are from YouTube
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Doug Pagitt is fulfilling
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
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Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Wow, heresy.
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Systematic theology=taking your own views and imposing them on the Bible.
Biblical theology=reading the scriptures, with historical context in mind, and trying to figure out what is being said through it.
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Bless his heart, Todd Friel is a radio host. He did well given the extremely combative, elusive Padgitt. It’s difficult to nail down the Emergent doctrines because they are continuing to evolve.
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These comments are from the below site that also featured these two interviews:
http://reformedvoices.blogspot.com BTW i really like this site…..
Anonymous said…
- If I have to wander about in goat skins and starve half to death to preach out against this heresy I will this is a shame and is perverted enough to make me weep. Please hold fast to the bible. Thank you for exposing this garbage. Greg.
- Anonymous said…
- Paggit is just another in a long list of heretic kooks who have no understanding of the word of God, for they have not the Holy Spirit to open their blind eyes to see, yet they proclaim to be teachers of men. Unfortunately,there are too many in the church today that are not truly born again, and are willing to swallow ANY teaching that comes down the pike. They love to have their itching ears scratched. It is also unfortunate that some seem to be so complacent and gullable, that they may as well wear a sign around their neck saying, “feed me and burp me when it’s over”. In season and out of season.
- Jason L. said…
- DP didn’t surprise me one bit. One of the Po-motivators posters describes it best:”If you don’t agree with my new point of view, then it’s pretty obvious who the divisive one is”http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/posters.htmPray for the “sheeple” of these false prophets, that God would deliver them out of those places.
- Vaughan Smith said…
- I think it was funny when he almost claimed Luther, Calvin, Whitfield, Spurgeon and Moody.
When studying false ministries or New Age religion I always seem to end up at Genesis 3:5, and there is a reason for this. It is so applicable in today’s world. We always hear that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Unfortunately Satan’s lies fall under the first two categories. We can look forward to the day when Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed but until that day we will have to stand up to him using God’s word as our armor.
Let’s take a closer look:
Genesis 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (NIV)
Consider these statements from Word of Faith promoters….
Kenneth Copeland “You’re all God. You don’t have a God living in you; you are one.”
Paul Crouch “I am a little God!…I have his name. I’m one with Him. I’m in covenant relation. I am a little god!. Critics, be gone!”
Benny Hinn “When you say I am a Christian, you are saying, I am mashiach in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words, that is a shocking revelation ..May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around.”
It seems as though those who stray too far from the Word of God become unscriptural or twist its meaning. The phrase “and you will be like God” is spoken by the serpent in the garden of Eden. Oh, what power the serpent can have over us. Look at Adam and Eve. Here they were living in a virtual paradise, all their needs were met, they communed directly with God, and yet……they were tempted by the desire to know more…to be like God.
There are three temptations Satan used on Eve to entice her to disobey the commandment of God in Genesis 3:3 which is:
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
TEMPTATION 1
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Hath God Indeed Said?
Notice how the serpent took a commandment from God and changed it into a question. He asked Eve: “Yea, hath God said..?”or…. Did God really say? Satan created a seed of doubt in Eve’s mind. Now she may have asked herself in response to this question: Why is God withholding this beautiful fruit from me? Surely, God would not hold back His blessings from me. Did I misunderstand?
TEMPTATION 2
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Surely you will not die.
Now that the seed of doubt was planted, Satan contradicted God’s word outright, with “surely you will not die”. Eve’s fear of death was removed by this lie. God said that even if she touched the fruit she would die. When the consequence of disobedience is removed, sin is meaningless.
TEMPTATION 3
Genesis 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
You shall be like God.
After Satan first questioned the Word of God then openly defied it, he then tempted with a new thought. You will be as God. Doesn’t this speak to our pride. That somehow we are in control of our own life and our destiny without Jesus Christ as our Lord. That God’s plan for our lives is not good enough for us. Our way is better than His way.
Can you see the sequence of these three temptations? Satan first used a suggestion to create doubt, then he defied scripture and then baited the trap with deity of self.
Of course this has been happening since the fall of man but you can see it easily in today’s world. The questioning of the Bible. It is authentic? Then the rejection of His word or the twisting of it by man’s sorry translations of today. Then the practices of meditation coming into the churches. Meditation invites oneself to go within. To look within for the answers.
THE ANSWERS ARE NOT WITHIN. THE ANSWERS ARE IN THE HOLY BIBLE. ALL OF THEM. ALL THE ANSWERS FOR HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFE. THE BIBLE IS OUR OWNER’S MANUAL. CHERISH IT. READ IT. PRAY WITH IT. (whew! sorry for yelling)
The New Age/Emergent Church is coming on strong and this will be the trend till the end of time. Theosophy teaching reveals that their goal is to introduce mystism, especially Buddhism and Hinduism into the West and into the churches. OUR churches. Yours and mine!!!! And I can assure you it is happening. The blending of Eastern religion into the West is rampant. Consider how President Bush just warmly received the Dalai Lama. I have read of goddess worship, labryinths, celtic worship, Taize, Yoga, meditation by contemplative prayer in the evangelican churches all across the country. These activities have been advertised in my local newspaper in the religion section. So, when is the New Age? It is NOW. It is here. It is in our churches as I speak…er…write!
There is tremendous power for the Christian who is trying to stay from deception by remembering Genesis. The three lies of Satan can help us detect deception in the false ministries, false teachings, and new age philosophy of today’s ever increasing sinful ways.
1. Did God really say? (Here read my book instead * The Bible is irrevelant)
2. You will not die. (Sin doesn’t exist * there is no hell * reincarnation)
3. You shall be like God. (God is already within all of us * man is divine * we are one with the universe)
Let’s turn this around so we can find the truth!
We are not like God. We are fallen and sinful. But when we confess our sin, repent by turning away from sin, and call on Jesus Christ and follow Him as Savior, we can have eternal life. God’s Word is true, inerrant, and available for all who believe in Him. There is only one way to resist the sin that is presented to us on a silver platter day in and day out. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit.
When confronted with their sin, Adam blamed Eve, and then Eve blamed the serpent. Who are you blaming for your sin or disbelief? Are you puffed-up, full of pride, relying on yourself instead of God? Are you trying to do things your way instead of God’s way? Will you rely on God’s strength instead of your own?
kim
serpent poster from:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/posters.htm
Motivational Posters for the Emerging Church.
Will P.E.A.C.E. really come on the earth before Jesus returns?
Did Jesus say that His church would bring peace to the earth? That concept cannot be found in scripture. What Jesus did say is:
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Christians need more discernment not more gurus with humanistic dominionist dreams
It is high time that the Church went back to the basics and studied the scriptures for themselves and stopped being led by the nose by gurus who publish their latest whim.
Recently Rick Warren caused an uproar by going to Syria where he was taped praising the antichristian dictator of this terrorist nation. Warren has future plans to go to North Korea. One might wonder how Warren gets access to these rogue nations. Warren is a member of the ultra elite Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).
Could it be that what is being espoused in some evangelical circles are doctrines of men or demons that have been deceptively weaved into the fabric of the many colored garments that are now displayed on the backs of multitudes of Christian dummies?
For the full article go to:
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Globel%20Peace%20plan.htm
To me…one of most important statements in the above article is “Warren is a member of the ultra elite Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).”
What is the CFR and why is it important here? The CFR created in part the Social Gospel, so the fact that Rick Warren has proclaimed to be a member of this elite organization is very significant.
Here is his statement made to Joseph Farah:
“Warren explained that he had also counseled with the National Security Council and the White House, as well as the State Department, before his little courtesy call for a neighbor.”
”In fact,” Warren added, ”as a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica, I might know as much about the Middle East as you.”
One of the main goals of the CFR is to create a gospel that is favorable toward a world government. There are many in government today and past who are members. Just to name a few in no particular order…… Eisenhower, Cohen, Feinsten, Mondale, McGovern, Lieberman, Bentson, Carter, Bush, Clinton, Gore, Powell, McNamara, Rumsfeld, Rockefeller, Nixon, Albright Humphrey, J.P. Morgan, Gephartd, Gingrich, Kissinger, Cheney…it goes on and on. Take a look at the list at the below link.
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/cfr-members.htm
The public knows what the CFR wants the public to know about the CFR, and nothing more.
Dr. Quigley knew a lot about the behind-the-scenes work of global power because he was a part of that power network for most of his life. In his book, Tragedy and Hope, Quigley states:
The “Hope” in the title of Quigley’s book represents the thousand-year reign of a collectivist one-world society which will be created when the “network” achieves its goal of world government. Quigley believed that the “network” is so powerful at this point that resistance by the common people is futile. Hence, those who resist the schemes of the globalist planners represent the “Tragedy.” By Dr. Quigley’s logic, there is no point in struggling against the noose around our necks, because resistance will merely guarantee strangulation.
According to Dr. Quigley, the Council on Foreign Relations is one of several front organizations set up by the network’s inner circle to advance its schemes. The ultimate goal: a New World Order.
http://www.infowars.com/print/Sept11/cfr_whitewash_commission.htm
The late Admiral Chester Ward, who resigned from the CFR in disgust after being a member for 16 years, was not exaggerating when he charged that the group’s agenda is to promote “disarmament and submergence of U.S. sovereignty and national independence into an all-powerful one-world government.” The leadership of the group, he said, “is composed of the one-world-global-government ideologists � more respectfully referred to as the organized internationalists.”
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2006/12/social-gospel-60.html
The CFR and the Social Gospel: Part 4
The concept of “peace” was re-defined so that it contained the added meaning of an international new world order by the architects of the United Nations, many of whom were leaders in the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). John Foster Dulles led the way in this effort, writing a concept paper entitled “The Problem of Peace in a Dynamic World” presented to the World Conference of Life and Work at Oxford in 1937.
“…Dulles… stated that he looked to Church leaders in particular to guide the world into a peaceful future.” (p. 86)“…[H]e challenged a new generation of pastors to guide their future congregations into the unfamiliar terrain of a new world order as the only sure hope of peace.” (p. 88) [emphases added]
These CFR leaders contrived to manipulate a new Christian ethic and era of “peace” by creating a new doctrinal ideal – that of building the kingdom of God on earth. This doctrine would serve as the foundation upon which international peace could be built.
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Have you ever heard of Peter Drucker’s 3-legged stool? The three legs of the stool are…government, business, and churches. These three sectors of society must be joined or partnered to facilitate the New World Order. You can see today how the church is becoming involved with businessess, (starbucks) using advertising and marketing methods, (bring in the customer) and government (the patriotric movement) on the superficial level. On a deeper level Peter Drucker’s networking management genius is being implemented into the church and is helping to create a dominion-based kingdom here on earth.
Who are two of Druckers prominate protege’s? Rick Warren and Bob Buford.
I am reading the Dec 06 Interchange Postings Summary for the P.E.A.C.E. Briefing for Mission Agencies, held by the Saddleback PEACE team in Atlanta GA. Here are two statements:
“We must take everything we have learned [about missions] in the past centuries and infuse it in and through the local church.”
“The specific components of this Summit are still being finalized, but the goal is to bring togther many of the key P.E.A.C.E. players from churches, businessess, agencies, and government for information and interaction.”
The above statement taken from the Saddleback Church Briefing defines exactly the same goal as Drucker’s 3-legged stool, which is the incorporation of the main segments of society into the church.
Let’s take another look at this statement taken from Herescope:
“…[H]e challenged a new generation of pastors to guide their future congregations into the unfamiliar terrain of a new world order as the only sure hope of peace.” (p. 88) [emphases added]
So.. (a CFR leader) is challenging pastors (Rick Warren… a CFR member) to guide future congregations (us) into the New World Order as the only sure hope of peace.
Clearly we can see that Rick Warren has been pretty effective to date. He has one of the largest congregations in the United States and he has implemented a huge undertaking with the P.E.A.C.E. Plan. He is using the “40 Days” programs as a way of inserting his agenda into the churches and pulling them along right into the next phase as they go.
First, bring the people into the congregations by a social and weak gospel message by appealing to their desires instead of their need for the true gospel. Second, “bring together many of the key P.E.A.C.E. players from churches, businessess, agencies, and government for information and interaction”. Third…..?
Will the mega-churches unite? Is the mega-church of today to be part of the one-world church of tomorrow? Is the true mission of the P.E.A.C.E. plan to feed the poor? I wish it was. But when looking at the Big Picture…I see how the networking, the blending of the three segments of our society…is creating a church for all mankind… a church with no gospel message…a blending of all other religions with Christiantity…a new universal religious system full of mystic practices. A new religion for the New World Order. Do you see it? It is happening before our very eyes.
kim
….. a Ministerial Association will host Kitsap County clergy, chaplains and spiritual leaders in a second annual retreat day Oct. 16th at Firway House Retreat….The retreat will be from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. with the theme “Thank God You’re Here!” The day includes holy leisure, celebration of call and humor. A rustic outdoor labyrinth is available on site for prayer, play and pondering.…..
My local newspaper seems to be fodder for many articles lately and then readily delegated to the dumpster for toxic removal. (IMHO). This weeks surprise in the RELIGION section was the above ministerial retreat complete with labyrinth and all the expected goodies for….pondering?
So now it seems I have to research labyrinths since they are coming to a neighboring town so that our local spiritual leaders can do their Buddhist meditations for “holy leisure”.
I found this at http://www.Cephas-library.com.
Most of the practicing New Age occult world has known and still does, that the introduction of the labyrinth prayer walk is a victory for their cause, bringing the unsuspecting Christians into agreement with the overall plan of the Aquarian Age, where those participating in this practice could be captured or ensnared into the ways of Satan. (‘The Labyrinth: The Occult Has Truly Gone Mainstream’ can be found at http://www.cephas-library.com/na/new_age_labyrinth.html )
Even though the labyrinth is a Western concept, it shares some similarities with Asian monastic and spiritual practices. The patterns of the labyrinth are similar in design and conception to the mandalas of South Asian Buddhism, which are physical representations of the spiritual realm designed to aid in meditation. Labyrinths blend their visual symbolism with the process of walking, which is similar to the Japanese Zen practice of kinhin, literally “walking meditation,” where all of the attention is focused on the process of each step, one foot in front of the other, and the breath is controlled and regulated. Both of these techniques are used in Buddhist meditation, which combines the elements of calming and insight into the single goal of samadhi, or “awareness.””
From what I am reading from different sites the labyrinth is an ancient symbol of wholeness with a purposeful path to a journey to our own center and back. It creates a sacred place to “That Which is Within.” This journey to center of our deepest self broadens our understanding of who your are.
Why would a Christian be involved in such an activity? We have already learned that to go “within” is an occult eastern mystical practice using meditation and controlled breathing patterns. To go “within” is to search for one’s own divinity. Again I have to ask why a Christian would even think twice about getting involved in the metaphysical.
“In walking the Chartres style labyrinth the walker meanders through each of the four quadrants several times before reaching the goal. An expectancy is created as to when the center will be reached. At the center is a rosette design which has a rich symbolic value including that of enlightenment. The four arms of the cross are readily visible and provide significant Christian symbolism.”
Can you see the readily visible four arms of the cross in this labyrinth? Oh yeah…maybe there…no…there…I give… I guess they are referring to the gaps between the four quadrants but to suggest that this is a Christian symbol is ridiculous. The above passage from lessons4living explains that reaching the center has a symbolic message of enlightenment.
Enlightenment is a New Age term for all-knowing or being as God. This is an anti-Christian message found over and over again in spiritual mysticism. The labyrinth is no exception.
Here is a picture of a Labyrinth right inside of a Presbyterian church in Maryland. I simply do not understand. Do the congregations of today no longer have any discernment whatsoever? Do they not realize that this is an unholy blend of eastern mysticism and Christianity? Do Christians absent-mindedly swallow everything that is introduced by their leaders as “spiritual”?
The use of such a method as a labyrinth… is merely another method of meditation which is a way of emptying the mind. We have learned that the use of meditation is the doorway between worlds and the key to the metaphysical.
Contact with the higher self – inner self- or the search for divinity is the ultimate goal of occultism. Any terms in New Age circles such as enlightenment, Christ Consciousness, breath prayers, new gospel, centering prayers, contemplative prayer are suspect and to be avoided by the Christian.
Christianity is being invaded by eastern mysticism. Christians are allowing themselves to be taught how to achieve altered states of consciousness in order to enhance their lives. This is deceit. The bible teaches that were are not to be involved in such practices.
Below is part of an article from Steve Muse of Eastern Regional Watch
The Labyrinth: A Walk to Life or a Walk to Death?
Is it a coincidence that within the last 20 years an ancient practice that had been abandoned by the “Church” has once again been introduced within its very walls that is impacting thousands? Why now is it being welcomed with open arms with such great enthusiasm by an unsuspecting church populace? This is another of many deceptions that have risen up within the body of Christ to bring delusion upon those who do not love the truth of God’s word. What affect will this ancient practice have upon we the believers in Christ?
Across the country and throughout the nations a practice is being revived within the church, which has been dormant for centuries. In effect, an ancient tool has been “unearthed” or re-discovered and people have begun to experiment in the practice of walking the labyrinth. This is a practice that seems to bring a sense of spiritual well being for those participating in it but in reality it has trapped and is snaring many in darkness because of the labyrinth’s Occult origins.
Most of the practicing New Age occult world has known and still does, that the introduction of the labyrinth prayer walk is a victory for their cause, bringing the unsuspecting Christians into agreement with the overall plan of the Aquarian Age, where those participating in this practice could be captured or ensnared into the ways of Satan. ttp://www.cephas-library.com/na/new_age_labyrinth.
After researching the many websites on today’s use of the labyrinth, most agree that the labyrinth is a tool or device created to bring one into a higher spiritual realm through the use of meditation whether your are a practicing Zen Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a New Age Occultist, a Satanist, an atheist or even a “Christian.” My question now as it was at the beginning of this article is what is this labyrinth all about and how will it affect the believer in Christ?
If someone were to hand you an Ouija Board, telling you that it had been thoroughly redeemed and that other Christians were successfully using this board to bring them to a greater experience of God, would you also begin to entertain the thought of using this well known Occult method to seek God? Would you then use this Occult device, knowing full well that this is a tool or rather a gateway and portal to bring you into communication with “higher” spiritual entities (demons and familiar spirits). The labyrinth is much the same as the Ouija Board in its intent and purpose, to open one up to the influences of the demons of darkness, to supposedly gain wisdom and knowledge of the mysteries of life. Then why even begin to experiment or experience the sacred walk of the labyrinth?
In Deuteronomy 12:1-14 and again in Exodus 34:10-17, God commands us clearly not to participate in anything that has ever been used in pagan ritual for worship or for any other use, for that matter. The labyrinth has been from the very beginning a demonic temple, a Kundalini energy source, a tool of divination, a gateway and a portal to communicating with other spirits and was incorporated into the Roman Catholic experience at a time when there was little understanding of the Bible and little or no discernment.
People are drawn to the labyrinth by the subtle seductions of the spirit world trying to convince us that anyone can get to know “God” through some kind of spiritual experience. If this were the case then we have all been duped as Christians. If I knew that I could have a “God” experience just by walking the labyrinth then all that God did through the sacrifice that Jesus gave on the cross is really unnecessary to bring us into relationship with the Father, I just have to have an “experience” and all will be well.
Many believe that the labyrinth is the beginning of a “spiritual journey” opening up relationships with the ancient masters who will in turn offer the knowledge and wisdom of the ages to all who will take the first step or “the initiation” to enlightenment. Most Christians know or should know that the ancient masters are really familiar spirits or seducing demons and the initiation is a bonding with the powers of hell itself. Is this really a walk to life or a deception that will lure us onto a path to death?
http://www.erwm.com/TheLabyrinth.htm Here is the link for the entire above article from Eastern Regional Watch Ministries.
Researching labyrinths has been interesting. There are about 1954 currently in the United States. 793 of these are located within churches. YES…. IN THE CHURCHES OR ON THE CHURCH GROUNDS. I randomly scanned about 300 of these and here is the number of each denomination that has installed a labyrinth on their premise.
Baptist – 3
Church of Christ – 9
Lutheran – 17
Presbyterian – 24
Catholic – 28
Unity – 13
Unitarian – 16
United Methodist – 39
Undefined- 63
Episcopal – 88
These numbers are only representative of the total… but they show which churches are allowing contemplative spirituality into their ministries. The Undefined churches had a general name like Hope Church, The Foothills Church, etc. so they were impossible to designate. The remaining number of labyrinths (1161) not on church properties….were located in health/medical facilities, spas, retreats, private residences, parks, etc……I discovered that a local retreat about 10 miles from my home has 3 seasonal outdoor labyrinths.
http://wwll.veriditas.labyrinthsociety.org/locate-a-labyrinth (link now broken) Here is the site I used to find where the labyrinths are located. I invite you to take a look for yourself.
*updated* link http://labyrinthlocator.com/
All of this eastern mysticism found in the church today is making me very cranky, sad, and burdened. I weep inside when I wonder what the Lord must think when He looks down at His own children, walking the traditional path of the lost and pagan.
kim
DiscernIt 
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