In Todd Bentley’s initiation “ordination” ceremony last week one George
Banov spoke providing Bentley a ‘prophetic word.’ I must say that
initially, at least, he was a welcome relief following the demonic,
frenetic, wild head shakin’ thang of Stacey Campbell. Banov comes in at
6:00 minutes:
A quick internet search could not produce much info on Banov; but, he’s
obviously of the same heretical Latter Rain ‘stream’ as the others on stage.
The reason I wish to call attention to this is the fact that in his ‘word’
Banov uses two Messianic prophetic scriptures and claims God told him these
were for Bentley! Here’s the transcription:
“Todd on behalf of the Eastern European nations and former Communist
Countries, we want to tell you that we acknowledge and honor what’s upon
you. And, we give you the keys for Eastern Europe — especially the poor,
the rejected, the gypsies.
“And The Lord says that because you’ve loved his personal presence there are
two anointings that are released on His presence and I just want to release
those two anointings on you from the LORD. By the way, the Lord says ‘you
are well pleasing son.’ The Father, Abba, says that to you personally. The
first anointing is the anointing of the pleasure of the LORD. [emphasis
mine]
“’Surely He has borne our grief, sickness and weakness and carried our
sorrow and the pain and the punishment of us all. He was considered
stricken, smitten and afflicted by God; but, He was bruised for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities and chastisement
that brought our peace came upon him and by His stripes we were healed and
made whole.’ [Isaiah 53:4-5] And, yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him
and in His presence there is fullness of joy and pleasure for evermore.
[This is apparently a paraphrase of more than one scripture with another.]
And, God’s releasing his pleasure of what He did to Jesus upon you Todd.
“And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45
but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have
loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and
uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and
iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant
joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you.”
Not only does he quote two Messianic scriptures and applies these to
Bentley, he even goes so far as to claim that the Lord referred to Todd as a
‘well pleasing son’ thus putting Bentley on par with Jesus! [Matthew 3:17;
Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22] Does this not show this group to be promoting
Manifest Sons of God doctrine – part of the heresy of the Latter Rain
teachings? And, no one batted an eyelash on stage or in the audience. In
fact, they clapped and cheered.
I wish to point out that there is only one true anointing – the anointing of
the Holy Spirit upon true believers who accept Jesus Christ as their
personal savior.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the
truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but
because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the
liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the
antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has
the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it
does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what
he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you
astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you,
and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you
about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit — just as it
has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:20-27 NIV]
To promote that we can attain Christlikeness this side of glory is
tantamount to denying Jesus Christ’s exclusive Divinity as the One and only
Son of God. As the Apostle John points out above, this is the spirit of
antichrist.
submitted by Craig “Lee” Dorsheimer
DiscernIt 
312 comments
July 4, 2008 at 6:30 pm
calmwhisper
Bravo Lee, you just proved my point. God Bless and have a great night.
July 4, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Kim
The prophets were 100% accurate in the Bible. I am not interested in the false prophets of today, which is enormous.
To prophecy also means to speak forth the Word of God. I do desire to speak forth the written Word of God, and so I do this in my other two ministries.
July 4, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Layla
Calmwhisper,
you said up above, ” Have you written Todd Bentley with your concerns? Georgian with your concerns about that maybe he missed it? May be you should.
Do you know anything about the history of these men that are being spoken of. Did you know that those who were alomg side of them in early beginnings of this “movement”, “teachings”, “Third wave” had been approached about what they are doing and saying. Many of them know Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain personally. They have been in their homes and love these men dearly, but the bottom line is they are teaching the “word of God” in error. They have approached them in private, by letter, by phone and yet still they do not take the correction but have gotten deeper in the junk.
Please stop this continued, “have you spoken to them.” You are trying to apply Matthew 18:15+ in this application and this is NOT a personal ought against a brother but rather a public ministry needing public correction. Your interpretation and use of that verse is incorrect. Stop it!
July 4, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Lee
we are better served seeking His face and reading His Word than tearing down one another.
So, then you would rather not expose blasphemy among supposed leaders of the church? It is because I read His Word that I can see the falsehoods.
Yes, as Kim pointed out we are to contend for the faith as per Jude’s words. That short book is a warning against false teaching.
Here’s a question for John, calmwhisper and Julia: Given the multitude of Biblical passages which speak of false prophets/teachers, can you name me one or more within Christendom?
July 4, 2008 at 8:32 pm
cheryl U.
I believe Layla is correct in her interpretation of the Mt. 18 passage. This is talking about a sin of one person against another. False prophets and teachers that are affecting multitudes of other people need to be warned against publicly becasue the damage they do is done very publicly. Neither Jesus nor the disciples feared speaking out against false teachings publicly and yes, they named names.
July 4, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Kim
To my Sisters, cheryl U. and Layla….
Amen.
July 4, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Julia Palermo
again – paul exhorted us to desire to prophecy above all other gifts. case closed.
lee and kim – the office of old testament prophet is totally different from a new testament believer prophesying. there are still old testament type corporate prophets but they are few and far between. i would say that lou engle would be an example of someone in the office of the prophet today. however, though i do not consider myself a prophet, i do have a prophetic gift. two totally different things.
lee – jude is one of my favorite books of the Bible as well. i will not casually call people blasphemers. martin luther was called a heretic. many saints were burned because the main stream church called them blasphemers. i have strong opinions about wrong teaching in the church, even my parents own church but rather than futily argue with my parents, i pray for them. they love the Lord and i trust He will show them their error. Holy Spirit is good at that stuff.
again – i can’t say it enough – if paul tells me to do something or it is evident he made a certain practice part of his every day life (ie – i thank God i pray in tongues more than you all), then i am going to take it pretty seriously. he said to desire to prophesy. i’m on board.
July 4, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Julia Palermo
p.s. –
i give sam the best comment award! although i totally disagree with him, that crack thing is the funniest thing i have read in weeks!!!! bravo!
July 4, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Lee
Kim, cheryl, Layla,
Yes, we are ALL correct in our interpretation. I responded to Chris to correct his misinterpretation of that passage on July 3 @ 12:57pm.
Going WAY back…
John,
This is from a while back:
That’s why people like Peter Wagner (who’s a thousand times the theologian that you or I are) are there with him. If something is said that’s off the mark, then there will be due process.
God is no respecter of persons. Since all of us (presumably – as I will not say this definitively about the ‘leaders’ in the video above as their actions are questionable) have the indwelling Holy Spirit we have all we need to guide us in Spirit and Truth. We are a royal priesthood, a holy nation [1 Peter 2:9]; and, NO ONE is above reproof. If anyone is wrong, including me, anyone can and should correct.
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. [2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV]
July 4, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Kim
Lee,
There does not seem to be an answer coming to your question:
“Here’s a question for John, calmwhisper and Julia: Given the multitude of Biblical passages which speak of false prophets/teachers, can you name me one or more within Christendom?”
I asked a similar question this morning:
“John, I know you believe these are the latter times. So in your opinion, ( i have given mine so i would like to hear yours), what doctrine is of Satan, and who is indeed listening to seducing spirits? Keep in mind this passage is about the Church.”
I never got an answer either.
I wonder why they won’t/can’t answer these questions?
July 4, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Lee
Julia,
lee and kim – the office of old testament prophet is totally different from a new testament believer prophesying. there are still old testament type corporate prophets but they are few and far between.
Please provide a scripture reference for this rather than your opinion.
i will not casually call people blasphemers.
Nor do I.
can’t say it enough – if paul tells me to do something or it is evident he made a certain practice part of his every day life (ie – i thank God i pray in tongues more than you all), then i am going to take it pretty seriously. he said to desire to prophesy.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. [1 Cor 14:18-19 NIV]
Paul is downplaying tongues in favor of prophecy. So, what is your definition of prophecy?
July 4, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Lee
Kim,
Yes, I would really like an answer to these questions regarding just who the false prophets/teachers are in the church.
July 4, 2008 at 9:49 pm
Lee
Julia,
p.s. –
i give sam the best comment award! although i totally disagree with him, that crack thing is the funniest thing i have read in weeks!!!! bravo!
I thought it was funny too! 🙂 However, I’m curious why you disagree with this. How is his example any different than Bill Johnson’s?
July 4, 2008 at 9:49 pm
John Burton
I do my best to have the fear of God on me regarding this issue. So, the most obvious litmus test would be a violation of classic Christianity, the absolutes of scripture.
If one were to deny the cross of Christ, that person would need to be avoided. If one were to deny the divinity of Jesus, that we are sinners saved by grace, etc. Then, they would not be believers.
I’m saddened by the fall of Carlton Pearson, for example. He clearly renounces key absolutes of scripture.
The OT litmus test for prophets doesn’t translate as you may suppose into the NT. The OT prophet is most closely related to the NT apostle. The apostles, prior to the completion of the canon of scripture, were writing the very words of God- just as the prophets of the OT spoke the very words of God.
Now, we don’t renounce someone simply based on a prophecy not coming true.
Prophecy is quite conditional. The timing, fulfillment, etc. of much of prophecy is conditional on our participation.
To not hear God and share his instructions can be fatal for people. I have stories of people that got radically saved in a moment because of a dramatic and precise prophetic word. If that word would not have been given, that person may not have been saved.
I agree with Julia, of course- we must heed Paul’s instruction to pray in tongues daily and to pursue the gift of prophecy. We can’t ignore that exhortation just because it’s challenging to handle.
July 4, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Lee
John,
I agree with Julia, of course- we must heed Paul’s instruction to pray in tongues daily and to pursue the gift of prophecy.
Please see my post @ 9:44 on the tongues and prophecy issue.
July 4, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Kim
“Prophecy is quite conditional. The timing, fulfillment, etc. of much of prophecy is conditional on our participation.”
I believe this statement is ….unbiblical! Where is this in scripture? Is this something that C. Peter Wagner manufactured?
John, thank you for citing an example. I don’t know who Carlton Pearson is though. Probably just as well.
July 4, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Kim
From http://www.apologeticsindex.org/36-carlton-pearson
The doctrine of inclusivism (sometimes called inclusionism) is considered heretical –
Heresy is “[d]octrine which is erroneous in such a way that Christians must divide themselves as a church from all who teach or accept it; those adhering to heresy are assumed to be lost, although Christians are unable to make definitive judgments on this matter.”
“Even his dry cleaner refuses to do business with him.”
July 4, 2008 at 10:22 pm
John Burton
Really, all through out scripture we see prophecy that is conditional. The Israelites were to enter the Promised Land under Moses, yet their disobedience delayed the fulfillment.
Here’s a short article on the issue:
Prophecy—Conditional or Absolute?
While we have noted that the prophets spoke with confidence, it is also important to observe that some prophecies were obviously conditional. This is especially true with reference to predictions that contained warnings of impending judgment upon wicked peoples. The doom prophetically announced was dependent upon whether or not that nation would turn from its evil. For example, when Jonah went to the city of Nineveh, he announced: “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown” (3:4). However, that warning was obviously conditional as evidenced by the fact that when the people of Nineveh repented, and “God saw their works that they turned from their evil way,” he withdrew the judgment and did not destroy them (cf. 3:10). Similarly, when God promised the Israelites that the land of Canaan would be their inheritance, that pledge was contingent upon their fidelity to Jehovah. Note the testimony of Joshua 23:16:
On the other hand, some prophecies were absolute. Predictions concerning the coming Messiah were not predicated upon human response; they were fulfilled with amazing accuracy. The Messiah was to be: the seed of woman (Genesis 3:15), the offspring of Abraham (Genesis 22:18), from the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10), born to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), in the town of Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), etc. There was nothing conditional about these statements.
July 4, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Lee
John,
I’m glad you provided one example of a false prophet/teacher. Like Kim, I’ve never heard of the guy; but, I did find some info on the net.
Do you agree that William Branham was a false prophet/teacher given that he denied the Trinity (calling in a ‘doctrine of demons’ ) and augmented his Bible with teachings on the pyramids as well as astology?
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. [1 John 2:18-19 NIV]
According the Apostle John, both Pearson and Branham never were Christians. Well, I suppose one could argue that Pearson is just temporarily deceived; but, I don’t think it would hold water. Do you? He could, on the other hand, get saved for the first time.
At this point I’m witholding further comment until we can settle the NT vs. OT prophecy issue.
July 4, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Kim
John,
Yes, i see what you are saying…I found the article you speak of…
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2001
thank you… i will read it in it’s entirety….
Good night all…God Bless
July 4, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Lee
John,
Prophecy—Conditional or Absolute?
1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, “O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. [Jonah 4:1-2 NIV]
The conditionality of the prophecy was known in advance by Jonah. That’s why he didn’t want to preach it to his enemies! The conditions must be known up front in order for the prophecy to be a true prophecy. Yes, the prophecy may be fulfilled sooner or later depending on its conditionality; but, that doesn’t excuse incomplete prophecies. The prophet can’t come back later and declare there were some conditions on the prophecy — it was be done at the beginning. Incomplete prophecies are false as our God is PERFECT!
July 4, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Sam
Julia,
“i give sam the best comment award! i totally disagree with him, that crack thing is the funniest thing i have read in weeks!!!! bravo!”
Obrigado!
I want to thank my lovely wife and my father for this award.
I, like Lee, am curious to know why you disagree with the conclusions drawn from my illustration? It’s good to have a laugh, and believe me, I think it’s funny too. Just as funny as the reasoning that BJ presents in his support for Bentley.
I’ve got a mate (not as in mating partner; friend in Australian) who’s a bit of a womaniser. I love the guy, but I don’t love what he does. He had a nasty breakup with a girl a while ago, and while I couldn’t blame her for leaving him, I went over and hung out with him because he was down. I didn’t support his behaviour, and told him so. I think a good friend should be able to do that – tell a friend when they are wrong; not to bring them down, but out of love and concern, to build them up. I told him if he stopped womanising and treated those women with dignity and respect, he wouldn’t experience these nasty breakups anymore.
THAT is what a true friend does; not this wishy-washy *stuff* that BJ is advocating! If BJ is such a good friend of Bentley’s, as he claims to be, then his correction would carry way more weight than a stupid blogger’s opinion like mine.
Here’s the core of the issue: If one falls, they all fall, because they’re all teaching the same (heretical) stuff. It’s nothing to do with friendship, and all to do with business and diplomacy. Bill Johnson has made a wise business move, because if he works with the latest mover, he’ll benefit too, and it will strengthen both of their positions. With all of these self-designated ’super-apostles’ working together, people will start to say, “well look! So many people believe this stuff – it must be true!”
The Kingdom is not diplomacy, business or wikiality: it is friendship and reality. The Kingdom is built on objective Truth, the Rock of Christ. This house of cards is based on postmodern perceptions of truth where the majority must be right. But like every house of cards that gets too tall, it will give way eventually and all that will be left is a pile of nothing.
July 4, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Lee
Here’s the core of the issue: If one falls, they all fall, because they’re all teaching the same (heretical) stuff. It’s nothing to do with friendship, and all to do with business and diplomacy. Bill Johnson has made a wise business move, because if he works with the latest mover, he’ll benefit too, and it will strengthen both of their positions. With all of these self-designated ’super-apostles’ working together, people will start to say, “well look! So many people believe this stuff – it must be true!”
The Kingdom is not diplomacy, business or wikiality: it is friendship and reality. The Kingdom is built on objective Truth, the Rock of Christ. This house of cards is based on postmodern perceptions of truth where the majority must be right. But like every house of cards that gets too tall, it will give way eventually and all that will be left is a pile of nothing.
A big AMEN to that!
July 4, 2008 at 10:58 pm
John Burton
I believe the point of Bill Johnson’s post was that he knows Todd better than those who are attacking him. That’s what I’ve been trying to share here- we as distant observers don’t have even a slight percentage of the information necessary to assist Todd through this process.
And, there are many points regarding Todd (or others) that are simple points of disagreement. You draw one conclusion from a non-absolute of scripture while another believer draws another conclusion.
Both love God, both are loved by God, both may minister, but both may radically disagree. That’s why Baptists are Baptists and Methodists are Methodists and Assembly of God are Assembly of God. Differing thoughts on scripture. Everything from tongues to prophecy to the sabbath to ‘once saved always saved’ to tithing and on and on are open for discussion.
We can agree to disagree and really love one another.
July 4, 2008 at 11:03 pm
cheryl U.
John Burton,
I’m not at all sure that I follow your line of reasoning about Old and New Testament prochecies being different, other than the obvious fact that the canon of Scripture is closed now. You talk about prophecy being quite conditional. Do you think that the only kind of prophecy being given now is conditional? If that is the case, you said correctly that there was OT prophecy that was conditional also. So I am not getting your point here at all. Maybe I am missing something you said.
Besides that, prophecy is, by it’s very nature, something that is said by divine revelation. So if we claim to prophecy and it is an actual word from God, it has to come true by it’s very definition unless of course it is conditional. And I see absolutely no Scriptural reason to think it is always conditional. So if someone supposedly speaks forth a word from God and it is blatantly not true, what do you suggest we do with the situaltion? It is obvious such a person does not have very discenment to know when they are hearing God’s voice and when they are not. So it seems completely foolish to not deal with them in some way to keep them from further speaking in His name when they are not and confusing people (or worse). By the way, the OT didn’t look lightly at all on people who said they spoke in His name when they didn’t.
July 4, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Lee
John,
It’s 1:00am my time and I’m tired; so, I’ll have to respond in the morning. In the meantime, I would really like to know how you (and Julia) scripturally back up NT prophets being different from OT prophets.
And, do you see how Paul was making the point of prophecy as one of the ‘greater gifts’ is superior to tongues to the point of downplaying tongues in 1 Cor 12-14?
July 4, 2008 at 11:25 pm
cheryl U.
John Burton,
While it may be true that believer’s disagree on interpretations of Scripture, this thing with Todd Bentley goes way beyond that. What do you do with a man that tells the story of the same experience he has had repeatedly and the story changes substantially each time? What do you do with a man that changes what he teaches when the heat is on? For instance the whole angel Emma thing that now seems has been changed from female to male? What do you do with a man whose “Holy Spirit”is so violent that it causes him to kick old ladies in the face, knock a Pastor across the room so hard his teeth pop out, punch a colon cancer patient in the stomach, pound a crippled ladies legs up and down on the floor, or sit on a man and choke him?? What do you do with a man that part of the time says he recieves his healing instructions from an angel and part of the time from the Holy Spirit? He seems to ascribe a lot of things to angels that the Bible gives no indication whatsoever of. What do you do with a man that speaks of portals to Heaven, a concept that certainly is not New Testament Christianity in any way shape or form but is a new age concept? There are so many concerns about this man and his ministry that they simply boogle my mind. To just ignore them and think everything will be fine does not seem to be any kind of a decent option at all.
July 4, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Sam
John,
“You draw one conclusion from a non-absolute of scripture while another believer draws another conclusion”
I’m guessing you’re emergent?
Which part of Scripture is non-absolute?
I think I know what you mean, like as in, we’re arguing over things other than belief in Jesus Christ or those core things in Christianity.
I had a similar conversation with a palm-reader on the streets of HK a while ago. He was a Hindu and worshiped Jesus Christ. I’m not saying that you’re a pantheist or something [maybe you are?], but there’s more to it than that.
We aren’t just having little quibbles because the music hurts my ears or something. We’re talking about Todd getting people who already believe in Jesus to believe in “the angel” too. We’re talking about painting a false picture of the Holy Spirit as some force that makes you lose control, when the Scriptures say that He is a Spirit of Self Control. We’re talking about introducing postmodern concepts like”Jesus is perfect theology” – Bill Johnson – which undermine the absolute Truth of the Word of God, and create “personal jesuses”. My Jesus is exclusive (He doesn’t share His Glory with any other gods or angels) and unified. Todd’s and BJ’s is a fragmented subjective spiritual nuance which paves the way away from Mighty God. That is why I’m opposing this thing.
so when you say “Both love God, both are loved by God, both may minister, but both may radically disagree”, I can only agree with you if I know what the point of disagreement is. You haven’t provided me with the details, so I’m gonna have to disagree with you.
We’re not talking about tithing or the Sabbath. I’ve outlined what I think we’re talking about. Do you agree or not?
July 4, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Sam
Lee,
Cheers for the support. Is there any way to get rid of that grey block?
July 4, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Sam
Cheryl,
For a change we find ourselves in agreement.
Amen sister.
July 4, 2008 at 11:53 pm
John Burton
Emergent? No, no, no! I’m absolutely believe in preaching and teaching the infallible Word of God with boldness and power. I’ve written a book on the coming city-wide revival, that will be very Holy Spirit driven.
I believe it’s important to have stands on important issues. I often preach about the seeker movement, the church, revival, reformation, etc. However, there is also grace that must be extended.
While I may have a strong opinion about something, and teach black and white scripture on the issue, I also must embrace humility. I am not the end all in theological understanding.
There is a certain truth that the Calvinists have tapped into, though I lean closer to the Armenian perspective.
I am not ‘once saved always saved’, though I admit there is some scripture that must be wrestled with that affirms portions of the opposing view.
I believe it’s critical to pray in tongues a lot, though I certainly wouldn’t slight someone who doesn’t do so, or doesn’t believe in it.
I feel tithing is a non-negotiable part of a believer’s life, though I understand some other students of the Word disagree.
I could go on and on. Additionally, I understand that men fail.
Consider this- Peter actually renounced the cross! He denied Jesus! Todd Bentley has not done this. God knew Peter had to go through a process… and boy did he. He ended up preaching a piercing message of the cross in Acts 2!
We must, must, must have grace… trust those who are close to leaders like Todd Bentley to know best how to coach, encourage and correct if necessary.
Beyond that, we must trust God to sort it all out in due time.
Above all- we must humbly and passionately pray for people like Todd. Todd needs your love, your prayer and your encouragement. The platform that God has given him is touching millions. Pray that those people are deeply transformed by the love of Jesus.
Regarding the OT/NT prophecy question, it’s to deep to go into now… but I highly recommend a book by Wayne Grudem titled The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today.
July 5, 2008 at 12:19 am
cheryl U.
John Burton,
This may be a poor analogy, but it is the best I can think of now. But I would hope that if you saw someone’s house on fire and knew people were going to be burned or maybe die because of it, you wouldn’t just sit back and do absolutely nothing because you figured those who knew them best would handle it and beyond that you would just trust God to work it all out?? Surely you would at least call 911, wouldn’t you? And then if there was anything else you could do to help or at least warn people, I would hope you would do it. Should we do any less when we see what we very firmly believe to be a grave spiritual danger taking place right before our eyes and many people are being sucked in? Should we not try to warn people? And in case you don’t think these blogs do any good, I have heard several folks comment about how much they learned on these sites when they started questioning all of this stuff.
In a very real sence, we are our brother’s keeper and we need to sound the alarm when we see him in danger.
July 5, 2008 at 12:32 am
Sam
John,
I was fairly sure you weren’t emergent, just putting it out there to find out where you’re coming from.
I’m a bit rough around the edges and end up getting up people’s noses, so to speak. I could, I agree, take a few pages out of your book and approach this with a bit more graciousness. I have all the time in the world for people to come around and see the light. I do pray for Todd. I will continue to pray that he uses his platform for good, not evil.
While I can appreciate your humble approach, you have dodged my question altogether. We’re not arguing about tithes or once saved always save or any of that. I told you what I think we’re disagreeing on and you haven’t touched on any of it.
You used the example of Peter. The difference between Todd and Peter is this:
Peter repented when confronted by truth. Todd hasn’t, and continues to pollute those millions that, as you rightly pointed out, he has impact upon. I think the theory of giving guys “due time” doesn’t apply to a guy has been ministering garbage for the past few years [I, unlike some here, think his early ministry was on track, although immature]. Peter took no more than forty days.
And why is it that I should “trust those who are close to leaders like Todd Bentley”? I could use Bill Johnson’s flawed logic to say, “I don’t know them, so how can I trust them?” Fact of the matter is, I’ve heard enough of what comes out of these guys’ mouths to know that I wouldn’t trust them with my wallet, let alone my eternal salvation, for out of the mouth the heart speaks.
So what say you on those issues that both Cheryl and I have raised? Once again, I think it’s a different ballpark to tithing or tongues. I think you need to comment on those objections before this conversation can go any further.
July 5, 2008 at 12:39 am
John Burton
Cheryl, this is certainly a tough issue. The folks on this blog feel that there is a house on fire (bad fire). Many others see the house on fire (good fire).
That’s the big point here. There are many, many, many God fearing, Jesus loving, Bible students who acknowledge that the fire of God is burning in Lakeland in a powerful way.
Simply- some disagree that what is happening in Lakeland is not of God.
Some folks in one camp may call something demonic if they notice problamatic theology or questionable focuses.
Others in another camp (by the way, both camps are Christian) would admit that man is fallible, and we may not always see eye to eye, but in spite of our weakness God is doing something dramatic.
Basically, what is so obvious to you may not be so obvious to others… and what is so obvious to others may not be so obvious to you. We’re all human, and we have differing insights, levels of grace, personalities, etc. That’s why the issue of the absolutes of scripture is SO important.
If Todd were to ever deny the divinity of Jesus, THEN we’d have something to talk about… and you’d see those who are leading him respond clearly and immediately.
Does this clarify it a bit?
July 5, 2008 at 1:21 am
John Burton
Regarding some of the issues that were raised, I’ve shared several times that I have yet to hear Todd violate an absolute of scripture.
The issue of order in a service is so very subjective. We simply can’t say that “God wouldn’t have us act this way or that way”. I know I’ve been radically saturated by God’s presence as have others.
Regarding the angel, it’s really not as much an issue as some might make it. I don’t have all of the info, but I at least believe that angelic encounters are biblical.
Some say that nowhere in the Bible do we see people seeking out an encounter or an angelic visitation. I’d say that we don’t see it forbidden either.
Regarding some of the other issues, I doubt we have the whole story. And, we don’t know, if he is at fault, whether he has asked God for forgiveness or not. That’s why the local overseership is the appropriate body to address those issues. They may have met with him about these issues and have gained clarity, given instruction, correction, etc. We just don’t know, nor do we need to know.
What’s important is that Jesus is exalted and central. Salvations are happening, people are finding freedom from bondage and the captives are set free.
We can disagree over angels, order of worship, etc. and still be healthy, humble, full of grace and mercy… and still hold firm to the core non-negotiable absolutes of scripture.
Am I an expert on everything Todd Bentley has been involved with over the years? No. Do you have insight I don’t have? Maybe. But, I’ve had some significant contact with that revival and the fruit is simply blowing away anything this nation has seen in many decades. Lives changed, people healed, people wildly in love with Jesus. (Yes, the REAL Jesus!!)
July 5, 2008 at 2:17 am
Sam
John,
“If Todd were to ever deny the divinity of Jesus, THEN we’d have something to talk about…”
I think a lot of these guys err the other way and refuse his humanness. This is the core issue that the Apostle John was battling against in 1 John 4. I know Miriam did a piece on Joyner about this issue, nut that’s another story.
But how about the exclusive divinity of Jesus? Do we have something to talk about if he denies that?
“Regarding the angel, it’s really not as much an issue as some might make it.”
Obviously you don’t consider Christian exclusivity a core doctrine [check out Jude 4]. I believe in angels too, because they’re Biblical as you rightly point out, but that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about Tod saying God told him to get people to believe in the angel, because they already believe in Jesus. Now regardless of how you skirt around the issue, this comment requires in the least a bit of explanation. I’ve watched the video where Todd says this, and he explains a bit only to his own detriment. Again and again I thought he’d correct himself, but nope, he really meant it. I know guys take some of Todd’s words out of context, but how else am I supposed to understand his comments?
Bottom line: God does not create revival so that people believe in the angel. But I suppose you’d say, “Some say that nowhere in the Bible do we see God telling His prophets to get the sheep to believe in the angel. I’d say that we don’t see it forbidden either.”
Please, please correct me if I’m wrong: I’m just trying to follow your logic through to its endpoint.
“Regarding some of the other issues, I doubt we have the whole story. And, we don’t know, if he is at fault, whether he has asked God for forgiveness or not. That’s why the local overseership is the appropriate body to address those issues.”
Do you think he’s at fault? Why/why not?
Also, don’t you think the correction should be public, because it was made in public? we’re not talking about the same context as Matt 18. Public ministry is different.
July 5, 2008 at 7:55 am
cheryl U.
John Burton,
I agree with Sam. If there is correction to be done, it needs to be done publicly or Todd needs to make it clear publicly that he has repented. After all, what he has taught has gone literally world wide and affected probably millions of people. Is he to go on without making any effort to say to all of those folks, I was wrong, I led you astray, back way up here, I taught you something false and dangerous? All of those folks are just to be left deceived (assuming that is the case since I know you disagree) so that Todd does not have to face public censor? Something is very, very wrong with that picture.
July 5, 2008 at 8:02 am
Julia Palermo
Since you really want to know I believe that one false teacher out there today is Brian McClaren. I am so vehemently opposed to the Emergent Church baloney that I had to crack up laughing when Sam asked if John was part of the Emergent Church. You have no idea how funny that was. As an aside, I think the Seeker Sensitive thing is pretty disgusting. Anything that tells me I need to look more like the world to attract them or blend in so they feel comfortable makes me kind of sick. We are clearly called to be aliens, strangers and wierdos in the land. Ok – I added wierdo but I’ve been called one! 😉 The point being, Jesus never told us to blend in for sure!
I believe that the greek word for old testament prophet and new testament prophet are two different words and the one for old testament prophet was changed to “teacher” because at the time of the writing of the epistles it had been so overused it had some other connotation. John can help me on this because my memory is a bit fuzzy on it and I don’t have time to do a word study. Anyhow, this would illustrate to me that 1) there is a difference and 2) an old testament prophet is more akin to a new testament teacher. Again – I am pretty sure about this but am wiling to admit that I could be completely mistaken. Go easy on me, I haven’t finished my morning coffee yet.
July 5, 2008 at 8:28 am
Kim
Julia,
I agree with you about the emergent and seeker churches. Brian McLAren is a false teacher. He denies the atonement. Many others emergents are promoting the mystics such as Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, and Matthew Fox who blends mysticism into Christianity. Anyone who starts dabbling with the emergents/contemplatives starts to also dabble into occult methods which alter the state of mind and people start seeing visions. Shamans…..that is what they are.
July 5, 2008 at 8:40 am
Lee
Go easy on me, I haven’t finished my morning coffee yet.
No excuses! No soup for you!!
I have a few errands to run, then I’ll be back to field a few of the earlier comments.
July 5, 2008 at 8:47 am
mbaker
John Burton,
You said:
“Regarding the angel, it’s really not as much an issue as some might make it.”
I believe it is, because like the kingly anointing that was passed on to Todd by Banov, it has its origins in MSOG and occultic/New Age.
Emma was originally an invention of Bob Jones,who apparently got it from some occult teaching, and tacked God’s name on it. Now Todd has elevated Emma to the status of Jesus in His revival. He has publically made the claim that the church already knew enough about Jesus, and that “God said” it was time we learned more about angels. That conveniently introduced the angel Emma, which made a prophecy Bob Jones gave about her supposedly valid. How convenient for everyone, when we can bypass God and prove each others prophecies by merely fulfilling them among ourselves!
You concluded:
“But, I’ve had some significant contact with that revival and the fruit is simply blowing away anything this nation has seen in many decades. Lives changed, people healed, people wildly in love with Jesus. (Yes, the REAL Jesus!!)”
Come on. You speak of fruit but neglect to check out the origin of it. You certainly know God would not give a bi-sexual angel the same status in the church as His son. This is idolatrous teaching and it does violate one of the absolutes of scripture, that God said “You shall not have any other gods before me.” Todd has elevated Emma into a supernatural golden calf at this revival. Now, the so-called pronouncement of God by Banov has also placed Bentley on a sonship level with Jesus.
So how could folks be receiving “the REAL Jesus” at this revival, when Todd has stated himself that the church already knows enough about Jesus? It seems the evidence is more strongly pointing to the Godhead being replaced at this point in the revival with Todd, Emma and a new and very violent form of the Holy Spirit. Such an unholy alliance cannot be possibly giving folks the real Jesus .
July 5, 2008 at 9:05 am
Kim
“I believe it is, because like the kingly anointing that was passed on to Todd by Banov, it has its origins in MSOG and occultic/New Age.”
I believe this to be so very true…….and i believe the occultic methods of metaphysics are being employed which deceive the person into thinking their visions of angels divine, but sadly they are mistaken. It is satan coming as a white light.
In Johanna Michaelsen’s book”The Beautiful Side of Evil” she describes seeing and meeting “Jesus” in a induced trance. When she prayed for truth the apparition revealed itself as a demon.
July 5, 2008 at 9:10 am
cheryl U.
Julia,
Here is the definition of prophet and two definitions of the word prophecy taken from the Thayer’s Lexicon. These are the words used in Paul’s discussion of prophecy in I Cor. 12 through 14.
Definition of Prophet:
Strong’s G4396
1) in Greek writings, an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things
2) one who, moved by the Spirit of God and hence his organ or spokesman, solemnly declares to men what he has received by inspiration, especially concerning future events, and in particular such as relate to the cause and kingdom of God and to human salvation
a) the OT prophets, having foretold the kingdom, deeds and death, of Jesus the Messiah.
b) of John the Baptist, the herald of Jesus the Messiah
c) of the illustrious prophet, the Jews expected before the advent of the Messiah
d) the Messiah
e) of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God’s authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men
f) of prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among Christians
1) they are associated with the apostles
2) they discerned and did what is best for the Christian cause, foretelling certain future events. (Acts 11:27)
3) in the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers
3) a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration)
a) of Epimenides (Tit. 1:12)
Two definitions of prophecy:
Strong’s G4394
1) prophecy
a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
Strong’s G4395
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
a) to prophesy
b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
The same word listed above for prophet is the one used by Jesus multilple times when referring to the OT prophets. It is also the one used in Hebrews 1:1 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,”.
I didn’t check every use of the word prophet in the NT because there is a very long list. I know there is at least one other word used for prophet but it means something pertaining to the prophets–don’t remember the exact definition.
So, it would take some doing to prove to me that the words used prove there is a differnce between OT and NT prophets. And how in the world can you say anyway that an OT prophet is more akin to a NT teacher considering the huge amount to predictive prophecy in the OT? That doesn’t make any sence to me at all.
July 5, 2008 at 9:16 am
cheryl U.
John Burton,
Regarding the angel issue which you think isn’t all that important: Did you happen to see the service or watch the video clip where Todd was chanting, “Angels, angels, angels, angels, angels, angels, angels, angels,…”. I have no idea how many times it was actually repeated, but it was a great many. I saw the clip and heard him do it. You don’t think that it putting an undue emphasis on angels? Would certainly seem like it to me.
July 5, 2008 at 9:39 am
Layla
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/another-deliberate-deception-todd-bentley-angel-emma-has-a-sex-change-in-todd-bentleys-latest-book/
Well what do you know, caught again….
July 5, 2008 at 9:40 am
mbaker
Here’s an interesting link. Did you know there was a mythical Japanese god, called the god of hell, named Emma-0?
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/japanese-mythology.php?deity=EMMA-O
July 5, 2008 at 9:48 am
Lee
cheryl U.,
Bentley chanted it 13 times. Just like he called out all 13 year old virgins in his twisted view of the parable of the Ten Virgins. He seems to have a fixation with the number 13. Hmmmm…
July 5, 2008 at 9:52 am
Chairos Seeker
John Burton: “What’s important is that Jesus is exalted and central.”
I agree that the exaltation of Jesus is the most important function of any Christian gathering or ministry. But I do not agree that function is occurring to any substantial degree in the Lakeland broadcasts.
The word “Jesus” is mentioned regularly during the broadcasts (though perhaps not as often as the words “angel,” “anointing,” “impartation” or the first-person pronouns “I,” “me,” and “mine”). But according to the Scripture the exaltation of Jesus does not consist in merely mentioning His name. Instead, it consists in the proclamation of the cross. The cross is rarely, if ever, mentioned during the Lakeland broadcasts. It follows that Jesus is not being exalted.
The daily outreaches are significant and to be applauded. I believe that, under the direction of Jeff Lewis, the Gospel is being truthfully proclaimed and people are coming to Jesus. I bless that effort. But, sadly, I cannot yet make the same claim, or offer the same blessing, with respect to the evening sessions.
July 5, 2008 at 10:23 am
Lee
John,
It may seem like you’re being ganged up on here; but, I’m just now returning and wanted to revisit a few things.
Consider this- Peter actually renounced the cross! He denied Jesus! Todd Bentley has not done this. God knew Peter had to go through a process… and boy did he. He ended up preaching a piercing message of the cross in Acts 2!
This is not fair comparison. Peter was not Holy Spirit filled as the finished work of the cross was not yet…finished. When Peter saw the risen Jesus, then he knew he was wrong and Jesus reinstated him [John 21:15-19]
On the other hand, if we presume Todd Bentley is Holy Spirit filled then why doesn’t he preach the cross? Oh yeah, it’s about that angel. I forgot. Bentley hasn’t renounced the cross, yes; but, that’s because he hasn’t preached it in the first place! He’s preaching another Jesus instead.
If Todd were to ever deny the divinity of Jesus, THEN we’d have something to talk about… and you’d see those who are leading him respond clearly and immediately.
Well, equating oneself to Jesus IS tantamount to denying the Divinity of Christ. Now, why would these ‘leaders’ respond and correct when they themselves believe in this? Rick Joyner, who was right up on stage, is well known as a Gnostic, denying the humanity of Christ. In Joyner’s view, Christ is and was Spirit. That is antichrist!
And, you cannot convince me that the others on that stage don’t know Joyner’s adherence to Gnosticism. So, why did they allow him on stage? The only logical answer is that they believe in this themselves! And, that is borne out in the way no one said a word about Banov’s ‘word.’
July 5, 2008 at 10:45 am
Lee
mbaker,
Come on. You speak of fruit but neglect to check out the origin of it.
Yes, and I pointed out Jesus’ own words regarding bad tree = bad fruit in Matthew 7, yet John still doesn’t see it.
July 5, 2008 at 11:36 am
cheryl U.
Lee,
I think the “eat the meat and spit out the bones” doctrine may to be to blame for a lot of that type of thing. The bad is to be ignored and you just take the good stuff according to that type of teaching.
July 5, 2008 at 11:46 am
Lee
cheryl,
Yeah, I’m sure you’re right on that. It’s sad.
July 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Lee
John,
Have you seen this video on Bentley’s healing angels — in his own words?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwhtQ8xaOKQ
“In just a few moments we’re gonna release the healing anointing, release the healing angels. And, we’re gonna prophesy a coming healing revival. And, people are gonna receive a transferable tangible healing anointing. It’s gonna break out in your city. It’s gonna break out in your church…”
So, who provides the power? And, who is the “we’re” which is obviously plural?
So, soon everyone will be healed! All we have to do is get a few people from each region to receive Bentley’s / Bentley’s angels’ “transferable tangible healing anointing” who can, in turn, impart this to others, who in turn… Then, we will have healed any-and-everyone!
Where is God in this? Where is the Holy Spirit? Most importantly, where is Jesus?
This is so obviously false; and, yet all those on stage “ordained” Bentley equating him to Jesus via Banov’s uncontested ‘word.’ Not my Jesus. Must be another.
July 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm
mbaker
Lee,
Here’s a rather sickening little blurb about Banov on the Elijah List. It says he
is a “Joy Apostle”. That’s a new one on me.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word_pf.html?ID=6354
July 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm
cheryl U.
If I remember correctly, the “spit out the bones” teaching comes from the following verse in Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 15:19
“Therefore thus saith the LORD, If thou return, then will I bring thee again, [and] thou shalt stand before me: and if thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.” KJV
If you read this verse in context, it is plain that this is a word of God to Jeremiah the prophet, telling him that if he will separate the precious from the vile, (the meat and the bones in the current teaching) then he (Jeremiah) will be able to speak for the Lord. This Scripture in no way teaches that the folks in the church are to have to sift through a bunch of false teaching, pull out the good, and ignore the rest. Again, this is a teaching that comes froms a verse taken completely out of context.
Besides that, the New Testament is full of verses about the dangers of false doctrine and telling us to gaurd true doctrine. So how in the world can we possibly think that we are supposed to pick out the good and just ignore the rest? And even if we think we are quite capable of doing so, what happens to the young Christian or the immature one that has no idea what is meat and what is bones? Are we to just leave them to choke to death on the bones that they thought were meat?!?
July 5, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Lee
cheryl,
Good observation re choking on the bones!
TimH and recently exchanged emails regarding taking verses in isolation and out of context.
July 5, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Lee
mbaker,
So, these “joy apostles” (Georgian and his wife) usher in the ‘breaker anointing for an open Heaven atmosphere.’ Ya know, before I became I Christian I didn’t have the lingo; so, it took me a while to get some of the terms like “shed blood,” [don’t get any on me!] “prayer closet” [hey I’m claustrophobic!] etc. However, as I started looking at the modern prophetic/IHOP/NAR/3rd Wave there I saw this whole new sub-Christian lingo. Initially it was as foreign to me as the art of applying makeup; but, now I get at least some of it.
From that link you provided:
Supernatural Equipping for Fathering the Glory Generation
Supernatural fathers are supernatural sons first. To raise up sons and daughters in the Lord, we need to know the intimacies of sonship and walk in the fullness of our rich inheritance. The purpose of this conference is to bring the family of God into an open Heaven atmosphere of first love encounter and receive a fresh impartation from God the Father.
Seasoned prophets are declaring that we are on the threshold of the greatest revival and harvest of souls this world has ever seen. There is new wind of the Holy Spirit being released which will empower you for the task of raising this Glory generation to manifest Heaven’s realities on earth.
There is so much wrong here:
“Sonship” = MSoG.
“supernatural fathers” begetting “supernatural sons” = gods begetting gods.
“receive a fresh impartation from God the Father.” Uh, I got mine already and it’s new every morning!
And, here’s that Billion Souls Revival thing again.
“Glory generation” Oh well, I’m sure I’m too old. If I just would-a been born later…
Reading this, it’s no wonder Banov gave the word in the post. They’re all slapping each other on the back. Well, Bentley has some additional moves.
July 5, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Lee
manifest Heaven’s realities on earth.
I missed that one — Kingdom Now/Dominionism.
July 5, 2008 at 2:14 pm
mbaker
Lee: regarding the E-list link on Banov:
“Reading this, it’s no wonder Banov gave the word in the post. They’re all slapping each other on the back. Well, Bentley has some additional moves.”
Yes, it would appear that it was a real man made “prophecy”all right.
A “Joy Apostle” anointing someone else with the same thing seems a little duh to me too. Hopefully others here who believe that all prophecy is of God will take note that these folks deal in both self fulfilling prophecies and in proving each others prophecies, in order to lend some modicum of credibility to themselves.
Kind of like a country club for prophets.
July 5, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Lee
mbaker,
From the FreshFire website under Joel’s Army:
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=943&pid=994&pid=994
We desire to strengthen prophetic words given by many prophets about a huge revival army of millions of radical soldiers that God is training to aggressively take ground for the Kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ.
How does one ‘strengthen prophetic words?’ By the “me too” kinda thing.