Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ?
by Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
May 20, 2008
To the Reader: Below is a word-for-word transcript of Todd Bentley’s YouTube video-taped message titled, “Jesus Christ Himself wants to visit you.” As of this writing, the 5 minute-23 second video may be reviewed on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwBrB8cCOk .
Patricia King, self-proclaimed prophetess and founder of Extreme Prophetic, provides a short introduction to the video, and backs Todd Bentley’s claims to have seen Jesus Christ. Patricia King, herself, is no stranger to conflict and controversy ( http://www.extremeprophetic.com/conflict_home.htm ).
The following word-for-word transcript begins at 2:41 into the video, where Todd Bentley states:
Just recently, I was in Redding, California, and I had a face-to-face encounter with Jesus. It was real. And I was sitting in this green room in a chair. I was in a chair just like this, and I could feel the presence of the Lord all-around me.
You know, we worship and we pray. We can feel the presence of the Lord; we can feel the peace of God. And as I was sitting in the chair, I, I literally saw heaven open. My eyes were open and I saw heaven open, and I saw the Lord step out of heaven–literally step out of heaven. And from the Lord, Himself, He appeared to me, and, and it was as if He came to me into this realm. He appeared to me.
I, I remember His face. He had the brownest eyes that I’d ever seen; kinda reminded me of the movie, Bambi. Had these big brown eyes. He had long, brownish-black, curly locks that went down past His shoulders. And I remember His beard. I remember he was wearing and Ephod [see Reference.com], and I was surprised. It wasn’t like the glory, it was just a, a plain Ephod. And it was just humble. And He came in the form of, as I would imaging Jesus with the disciples on the Earth, as the Son of man; wasn’t the King of glory; wasn’t in His resurrection glory. It was, He came to me in the form of a humble servant–the Son of man. I mean, he had sandals on His feet; a real plain Ephod. But it was His eyes. And I saw the Lord. It was His eyes.
And from the Lord I saw literally ten rainbows come from the Lord. It was almost like a, a, a TV; like a projection television from the Lord came heaven. And I saw hills and I saw lions and I saw rivers of oil and I saw all kinds of butterflies and giant bumblebees. But, but it was the rainbows. And the brightest color that came from the Lord was pink, which is love and emotions. But ten rainbows. It was blinding. And I could see all of heaven and its glory. It was like Psalms 23. It was the paradise of God. But the Lord appeared to me in this realm.
And I remember His eyes, and I looked into His eyes and I thought, Aren’t your eyes supposed to be like fire? He said, “These are my eyes as I was as a man on the Earth. If you were to see me in heaven, I have eyes like fire.” And I, I looked into Him face-to-face, and He looked me in the eyes. He actually put a hand on my shoulders and He said these words: “Peace I give you, not as the world gives.” And I felt this impartation of the literal supernatural peace of God come over me.
Jesus is wonderful. Jesus is beautiful. There’s no one like Him. He is the King of glory. He is the Lord, strong and mighty. And we love Him and we worship Him, and we thank Him for His goodness.
But may you have a visitation of the Lord. This is your year for Jesus to visit you, if He’s never visited you before.
[End of video]
Is Todd Bentley telling the truth? Was Todd Bentley’s “face-to-face encounter” with the real Jesus of the Bible or with a counterfeit? Here is what Jesus Christ and the Bible have to say:
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him (Matthew 24:23).
So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them (Matthew 24:26).
So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19).
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. “They will say to you, ‘Look there! Look here!’ Do not go away, and do not run after them. “For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day (Luke 17:20-24).
Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also (John 14:1-3).
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven (Acts 1:9-11).
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago–whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows–such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man–whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows–was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (1 John 4:1).
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen (Revelation 1:7).
So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you (Revelation 3:3).
Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame (Revelation 16:15).
Todd Bentley claims to have seen Jesus Christ, but it was not the Jesus of the Bible.
DiscernIt 
146 comments
Comments feed for this article
May 23, 2008 at 3:33 pm
JeN
I have three friends who have been sending me Todd Bentley emails over the past few weeks. These people are really into it. One says that her daughter is being healed and her five year old granddaughter gets into it and dances around in the “annointing.” Scary stuff. Here is another article by Jackie Alnor at Apostasy Alert. http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/bentley.htm
May 25, 2008 at 3:23 am
how do rainbows form
[…] Reader: Below is a word-for-word transcript of Todd Bentley??s YouTube video-taped message titledhttps://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/todd-bentley-or-jesus-christ-from-crs/A new alliance The Batavia SunAt school, Chris Chesson shows off his fitted shirts. He dances for […]
May 25, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Mary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFQc1oCgajU
oh wow, thanks to Cheryl U. from the grey coats blog for finding this-
May 27, 2008 at 2:59 pm
JeN
Here is more information on Todd Bentley.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2909690/AN-ANGEL-CALLED-EMMA
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain37.htm
http://www.believersingrace.com/page/page/5875486.htm
May 28, 2008 at 6:07 am
Matt
If Todd Bentley claims to have seen the Lord, then by default he is also claiming to be holy (without indwelling sin) Heb 12:14
If a person claims to be holy, they must also be able to explain how they overcame the devil. If a man becomes sanctified then they are according to the biblical definition, fit for the title of saint. Surely everyone should be calling him Saint Todd?
A person who is having visions of the Lord Jesus in the physical realm, must also at the same time be having night-time spiritual encounters with the Lord in the spiritual realm. There would not be one type of manifestation without the other.
I don’t think you can take this person seriously
May 28, 2008 at 6:32 am
Mary
This was posted on the grey coats by Simplicity inj Christ:
Check this video out, it further corroborates the entire Bam Bam Bigelow thing LITERALLY. The following video has Bentley actually admitting that on multiple occasions he committed violent assaults on various people in numerous services. Anyone reading may feel free to use my below transcription in any of your own articles or books, websites or videos,etc. to help expose this wicked heretic.
Bentley claims that Holy Spirit Himself told him on numerous occasions to:
1) “Grab a crippled woman’s legs and bang them up and down on the platform like a baseball bat.”
2) “The power of God is not moving because you haven’t kicked that woman in the face.” Bentley then proceeds to kick an old woman in the face “with his biker boot”
3) “God told me to ‘RUN HIM DOWN’, so I jumped up in the air and hit him to the ground, jumped onto him, got into a full mount…and something came over me…I grabbed him around the neck and started choking him”
4) “I was in another meeting and I called out this Chinese gentleman, and all of a sudden I went running down the isle and I hit this guy so hard it drove him back several feet and he hit the ground and his tooth popped right out of his mouth”.
5) “The Pastor was lying on the floor….and God said these words to me ‘leg drop the pastor’, I said ‘what’, He said ‘leg drop the pastor’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exb53K2v4pk&
Everyone please save this video with the downloadhelper extension for firefox and this is the only copy I found of this clip and Bentley may try and delete it if he knows this is online. This clip will be very important for future documentation.
May 28, 2008 at 10:09 am
Comment on Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ? from CRS by Mary
[…] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptThis was posted on the grey coats by Simplicity inj Christ:. Check this video out, it further corroborates the entire Bam Bam Bigelow thing LITERALLY. The following video has Bentley actually admitting that on multiple occasions he … […]
May 28, 2008 at 11:59 am
Bud Press
Hi Matt and Mary. Greetings in Christ.
Todd Bentley joins a loooong list of false teachers of whom have claimed to see Jesus Christ. Of course, a detailed study of Jesus’ words in Matthew 24 reveal a totally different story. It is obvious that Bentley and the others have not seen and been visited by the Jesus of the Bible (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).
Mary, your above post on Todd Bentley’s actions during the video is ironic. I just finished an article/word-for-word transcript of the video and sent it to my webmaster. It should be online sometime today.
God bless, and keep up the good fight for the faith (Jude 3)
May 28, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Mary
On a more humorous note, this I think, is my all time favorite of the best of Todd Bentley …at least to date:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYxoSYTr_E
I say humorous because if I don’t find some humour, I am going to go nuts.
May 28, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Mary
BTW,
Thank you Bud Press, looks like Todd can’t wessel his way out of that one now that it’s been documented.
That was copied and pasted word for word from “Simplicity In Christ” who was really on the ball.
May 28, 2008 at 1:39 pm
r180
Surely you all aren’t saying that Jesus can’t appear to man, are you? Or angels?
Regarding the other point, recall that Smith Wigglesworth punched someone in the gut. You can’t look at something like that and arrive at a simply conclusion that it’s not biblical.
Why not? I often hear people say that “The Holy Spirit wouldn’t cause anybody to ‘act that way”, in reference to certain manifestations. Why not? Is it forbidden in scripture?
I’m discussing the revival on a variety of levels at http://www.revolutionexperience.com if you want to visit.
May 28, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Mary
“Regarding the other point, recall that Smith Wigglesworth punched someone in the gut. You can’t look at something like that and arrive at a simply conclusion that it’s not biblical.”
Yes R180,
I think we can arrive to the conclusion -it’s not biblical to kick someone in the gut in the name of Jesus Christ. It’s antithetical to the character of Jesus Christ.
May 28, 2008 at 6:20 pm
JeN
I was punched in the stomach by one of Marilyn Hickey’s “disciples” in an attempt to get me “slain in the spirit.” I never did go down. I didn’t have anything to do with the Happy Church people after that. The charismatic church is messed up. Wasn’t Smith Wigglesworth of the pentecostal persuasion?
May 28, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Bud Press
Hi r180:
“Surely you all aren’t saying that Jesus can’t appear to man, are you? Or angels?”
Jesus Christ, Who is God Himself in human form, can do anything He desires. However, He will not violate His word. My article, “When Will Jesus Christ Return?” at
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/WhenWillJesusChristReturn.htm may serve to answer your question.
In Galatians 1:6-9 and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, the Apostle Paul warns about a counterfeit “Jesus” that roams the landscape. Paul encountered that false “Jesus” 2,000 years ago, and IT is still around today.
Don’t fall for it! Cling to what God says in His word. Cherish it, for the real Jesus will return, and “every eye will see Him.”
Love in Christ…
May 28, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Bud Press
r180:
In addition to my above statements, just because someone says they have seen something, it doesn’t make it true. This is why Christians must put what is said to the Biblical test (1 Thessalonians 5:21-22; 1 John 4:1), because many false prophets are in the world.
And every false prophet and false teacher carries his or her own demonic baggage, filled with demons, whose task is to confuse, depress, oppress, and cause a truckload of problems for the believer–but only if the believer allows it, that is.
A false “Jesus” has not the power or authority to save, sanctify, and redeem the sinner, regardless of how convincing the words or “vision” or “visitation” may be.
Afterall, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed to see “Jesus.” And, Sun Myung Moon, (Unification church/”Moonies”), claims to be “Jesus.” Both Smith and Moon sound convincing to the gullible and unwary, but their words have led precious souls for whom Jesus Christ died into hell.
Stand stong in Jesus Christ and the truth of His word, for we “ain’t” seen nothing yet.
May 28, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Comment on Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ? from CRS by JeN
[…] unknown wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptI was punched in the stomach by one of Marilyn Hickey’s “disciples” in an attempt to get me “slain in the spirit.” I never did go down. I didn’t have anything to do with the Happy Church people after that. The charismatic church is … […]
May 28, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Comment on Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ? from CRS by Bud Press
[…] Chris wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptBoth Smith and Moon sound convincing to the gullible and unwary, but their words have led precious souls for whom Jesus Christ died into hell. Stand stong in Jesus Christ and the truth of His word, for we “ain’t” seen nothing yet. […]
May 29, 2008 at 3:19 am
Louis
A few days ago I started checking out the Lakeland ‘revival’ because I meant to visit it if it was legitemit. It didn’t take but a few minutes on Google to figure out this is one of the most off things you can imagine. What kind of mentality is it that one would simply believe these wild tales of Todd’s? I doubt if they are even deceptive visions, I think they are outright lies. Not to mention all his occultic tattoos he has recently gotten, all his New Age teachings, associations with disreputable characters, messed and blasphemous theology and very worldly and self-indulgent lifestyle. I suppose if one doesn’t care about these kinds of things then Todd and his revival is just fine. But for those of us who do care don’t call us judgemental because this stuff is not little motes in the eye, they are a sledgehammer to the head they are so profuse and so ‘out there’ that you just can’t miss them.
May 29, 2008 at 5:06 am
Mary
Hi Lois,
Yes, It is beyond me how so many people can believe this guy has anything godly about him. When I watch him I see anything but a man of God, and yet some of my own family members have been quick to jump on board. Anything that is spectacular in the charismatic wing of the church they seem to embrace as being God inspired.
Patricia King, Todd’s mentor has her roots in the occult/new age. These people have no respect for God at all, no fear of Him, and certainly do not read their Bibles.
I am glad you see through this pseudo revival. Truly these are the days where God’s winnowing fork is in His hand. And He certainly seems to be separating the wheat from the chaff.
Hope your studies are going well in Scottland. Glad you stopped by. Hope you stick around.
May 29, 2008 at 5:40 am
Mary
Louis,
sorry, didn’t mean to misspell your name above.
May 29, 2008 at 5:43 am
Mary
Jen,
Thank you for sharing that. Yes, I beleive Wigglesworth was pentecostal. I read from another blogger that he once threw a corpse against a wall in order to revive him. uuggh.
May 29, 2008 at 8:27 am
Bud Press
Hi Everyone:
After spending years researching and witnessing to cultists and New Agers, I have come to realize that the worst form of deception is upfront and out in the open. In other words, when the level of deception reaches the point of in-your-face, that means the conditioning process to get people to the worst point has done its job.
Since Satan’s lie to Eve in the garden of Eden, people have been steadily conditioned for thousands of years to believe outright lies. This is one reason why people have been lured into the cults and the occult, and bow down to statues and men who claim to be a “god” or a “messiah.”
Once the conditioning process takes hold and establishes a firm grip, hyper-heretics such as Benny Hinn can claim to be a “god” and a “messiah” and utter in-your-face false prophecies, and still be accepted by many as Christian.
Most of Hinn’s followers I have encountered have the same mindset as a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness. They have been conditioned to believe a lie–regardless of how ridiculous it is–and will defend Hinn tooth-and-nail.
Currently, Todd Bentley is the “rising star” within the Charismatic movement. He, like Benny Hinn and others within the Word-Faith camp, twists Scripture, spins tall-tales, claims to see “Jesus,” and claims to visit “heaven” on a regular basis. Don’t believe it! Believe Jesus Christ over-and-above what any man or woman teaches, regardless of their position or popularity.
And let nothing or no one separate you from Jesus Christ and the truth of His word.
Todd Bentley, like those who came before him, WILL FALL! And it is our task to reach out in love and compassion to those who have been deceived by the Benny Hinn’s and Todd Bentley’s of this world–to the very best of our ability, as the Lord leads.
2,000 years ago, the Apostle Paul lovingly warned the Ephesian Elders of the savage wolves who would enter the church from the outside, and spring up from the inside (Acts 20:27-31). Sadly, many within the Christian church today have failed to heed that warning, as well as the clear-cut commands of Scripture that teach us how to deal with heretics and false prophets.
But in the midst of the blatant in-your-face deception, let us rejoice in the fact that God is in control. Nothing happens in His universe that He isn’t aware of. Jesus Christ is real. He will return. He will deal with the false prophets and false teachers and savage wolves who have deceived mankind through the ages.
And what a glorious day that will be; to see Jesus, our Lord and Savior; to bow at His feet and worship Him, and be with Him forever and ever. I am excited! How about you?
I have a big hug reserved for my Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. But until that day comes, we, as Christians, must remain steadfast, share the truth of the gospel in love, and defend the faith–once for all delivered unto the saints (Jude 3).
Hang in there, my brothers and sisters. Jesus is coming. We have His word on it…
Thank you, Kim, and God bless
May 29, 2008 at 1:53 pm
r180
Wow, a lot has happened here since I posted. I know you all think you are offering a service, but in so many ways you come across as arrogant… as if you are better at discernment and interpretation of scripture than other brothers and sisters. I just wish there was both humility and boldness here.
It’s rare to hear someone offer an opinion as just that- an opinion. When you state something as fact, and discount other believer’s perspectives entierely, it hurts your credibility.
For example, to say that it’s against God’s character to have someone punch someone else in the gut in order for them to experience healing.
You can’t say that! You can say, “In my opinion…”, but to leave no room for discussion, you are actually doing a disservice to the body.
Jesus put mud in people’s eyes. It’s a biblical precedent that Jesus himself and angels do in fact visit mankind. This is very different than “other christs” or the second coming of Jesus.
I’m sure your heart desires truth… but, IN MY OPINION, you are biblically wrong on so many issues. But as we are open to learn from one another, we’ll sharpen each other.
It’s ok to be uncomfortable with certain practices… but unless scripture clearly forbids it, you can’t go much further than offering human opinion on the matter.
Also, have grace. Keep in mind that ALL amazing men and women of God will make great mistakes and will believe differently than you at times.
May 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Mary
r180,
Putting mud in an eye is not the same as punching someone in the gut, kicking an elderly woman in the face, banging a crippled woman’s legs like a baseball bat.
I still stand by what I say. It is against the character of Jesus Christ to use violent means to heal. There is no precedent for it. The pentecostal “faith healers” have conditioned their followers to believe that is the way God works. None of whom I believe were the real deal. Find me scripture to prove me wrong and I’ll listen.
May 29, 2008 at 3:21 pm
r180
You say there is no precedent… however, there is nothing in scripture forbidding it either. That’s the point. We know that Jesus said and did much that wasn’t recorded in scripture- and we can be sure that nothing he did would have been forbidden by scripture!
Our place of safety is the perfect Word of God- if an activity is clearly forbidden, then by all means shout that from the rooftops… but if the bible is silent on something, then don’t presume it to be disallowed.
Remember, test everything… if Jesus is exalted, the test is passed. It’s not as confusing as we make it sometimes.
May 29, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Mary
sorry r180
but Jesus is NOT exalted in violent acts in the name of healing. He’s NOT exalted in the false teaching and demonic impartations by Todd Bentley. That’s the point.
True there are many things that were not recorded in scripture. Perhaps the 66 books left out “Emma” and stories of angels incerting white boxes in people’s stomachs. Or where Jesus raised a corpse to life by throwing the body against a wall. (I couldn’t think this stuff up)
But Jesus’s character is not going to change. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.
May 29, 2008 at 3:38 pm
r180
Of course his character doesn’t change, but we have yet to have revelation on the depths of it. I can’t imagine you could presume to be the final authority on that. We will be discovering the person of Jesus for billions of years… he is that expansive.
Plus, don’t presume that someone who operates in such a way is an evil person. Maybe they just have a different perspective than you do? We all do things differently, interpret non-essentials of scripture differently, etc. Our call is not to divide over such issues, but to serve and love.
Remember, we are not called to expose, but to cover. Recall the story of Noah… blessing comes to those who cover from a heart of love, and a curse to those who expose someones nakedness (weakness).
This doesn’t mean we affirm sin, but we also must be broken and humble… and serve a lengthy process instead of being a heresy hunter and with a nasty & arrogant spirit (as some have) declaring oneself to be the final authority on a matter. We must all realize that we can disagree, be weak, fail, do things differently and still stand strong in love and advance the cause of Christ.
May 29, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Mary
“we are not called to expose but to cover”
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth,
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them
Eph 5:8-11
I will respectfully say scripture does not tell us to cover when false doctrine and ungodly practices are involved.
As far as Todd Bentley is concerned, besides his rediculious visions and and heretical teaching, he does not read his Bible. If he did he might be a bit more reverent to his creator – Isaiah chapter 6 comes to mind.
May 29, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Mary
I’m a heresy hunter? Why is it when talking scripture one becomes a heresy hunter?
Mean spirited? Well if Todd is teaching doctrines of demons then I do get a bit upset.
r180 …. you just don’t want to hear the truth. I didn’t come looking for you, you came to this blog.
I am not being mean spirited. I’m just tired of hearing the same empty arguments from people who don’t read their bibles.
May 29, 2008 at 6:27 pm
r180
Is there a chance you are interpreting the bible wrong in parts?
What do you say about other Christians who disagree with your interpretation?
May 29, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Lee
r180,
If you believe Mary is interpreting the Bible wrong in parts; then I encourage you to point it out. No one is above reproof and scripture is the best way to refute someone’s teaching [2 Timothy 3:16]. This is what Jesus did to Satan in the desert.
You say there is no precedent… however, there is nothing in scripture forbidding it either. That’s the point.
Your comment here regarding violence — I do find scriptural precedence. God helped the nation Israel defeat her adversaries. But, that doesn’t fit the scenario regarding Bentley/Lakeland.
One other. God allowed the enemies of God exact judgment against His own people by violence. Hmmm… Could that applicable here?
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. [ 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12]
Is THAT what this could be?
May 29, 2008 at 6:58 pm
r180
Here’s the point… there are very reputable men and women of God that have varying opinions on the Lakeland revival. We could debate and discuss for hours and still disagree. Here’s the question, why is there such an absolute feel to this group?
What I mean is, where is the humility? Why aren’t people of the mind that they feel they are right, but may need to be sharpened in areas? It feels a lot like life in the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” as opposed to live in the “Tree of Life”.
We are all brothers and sisters… we should certainly share our opinion, but let it be known so very clearly that it is just that- an opinion. Even an educated opinion.
To say that Todd is teaching doctines of demons is irresponsible. Why? Because many intelligent, Spirit filled, scholarly men and women disagree. So, it can’t be an absolute statement.
Also, where’s the grace? Do you seriously think that every man and woman of God is going to be perfect all the time? Will their doctrine line up with yours all the time? No way. As long as we agree on the absolutes of Scripture, we should work well together.
Lastly, why ‘out somebody’ that you aren’t in close relationship with? How can they respond to your accusations? It’s not fair.
I bet if you asked Todd about some of these things, he’d have an informative answer. Even if you disagree, you can still love on another.
It seems every time I visit this site, the discussion is negative. Nobody’s excited about reports of moves of God in the earth… just suspicious.
May 29, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Comment on Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ? from CRS by r180
[…] Jonathan Connolly wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptHere’s the point… there are very reputable men and women of God that have varying opinions on the Lakeland revival. We could debate and discuss for hours and still disagree. Here’s the question, why is there such an absolute feel to … […]
May 29, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Lee
r180,
The problem is that a lot of Bentley’s theology is flat out not Biblical. And, he’s contradictory. His website’s Statement of Beliefs page looks theologically sound (as I skimmed it a while back); however, he also has a “Joel’s Army” school. Are you familiar with this heresy? Bentley’s connections with Bob Jones, Paul Cain, IHOP, etc. bear him out.
Are you familiar with kundalini and how it is passed on? This is what it appears Bentley is doing. The physical manifestations of the people who are “anointed” by Bentley are the same as Toronto/Brownsville which also mirror those under kundalini arousal.
I’m not prepared to call Bentley a brother in Christ given what I’ve witnessed online at Lakeland and other videos, read on his own website and know about his influences. And, this is not about being ‘judgmental’ — this is about discernment.
Now, I believe scripture points out some rather unusual circumstances regarding healing and other supernatural things. HOWEVER, not one of the people who performed these acts were out of the norm theologically of orthodox Christianity.
I can love Bentley (although I admit it’s hard as I see him leading the flock astray) as I would any other unbeliever. He may have started out on the right track; but, it’s apparent that he’s not on track now.
Also, please bear in mind that there are plenty of non-Christian healers. Pracitioners of Reiki, African witch doctors, etc. are not what I would call healers from God.
May 29, 2008 at 7:53 pm
r180
I’m on staff at IHOP… and the passion and love for Jesus that people have here are off the charts. Certainly there may be theological points you disagree with, and that’s ok… but we are all family, are we not? We’re not perfect, we’re weak, we’re hungry for revival. We’re Christians.
Have you ever been overwhelmed by the presence of God? Imagine if lightening struck you. You couldn’t simply stand there as if nothing happened. What if the creator of lightening touched you in a measurable way? Amazing! Power!
Regarding Bentley, many people have questions, but there are serious scholars who simply are too wise to pass judgment at this juncture. Jack Hayford is one of them. I know a girl personally who was dramatically healed and was on stage there in Lakeland. I mean, dramatic… perfect bill of health now.
When revival comes, it will be messy, uncomfortable, powerful, with wild manifestations… and a lot of mistakes will be made… but if we have grace, we’ll learn to major on the majors and minor on the minors.
May 29, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Mary
“To say that Todd is teaching doctines of demons is irresponsible. Why? Because many intelligent, Spirit filled, scholarly men and women disagree. So, it can’t be an absolute statement. ”
r180
Seriously, you think it’s kosher for someone to say they were taken by angels to the 3rd heaven, laid on an operating table, sliced open and had white boxes stuffed in his stomach?
If you think that sounds like a true angelic encounter then I just don’t know what to say.
“Many intelligent spirit filled scholarly men and women disagree”
With all do respect, they can be deceived too. No one is immuned to deception.
Please r 180,
I ask you humbly and in christian love, please consider Kim’s post and the abberrent teachings of Todd Bentley. Please consider that he is being deceived by seducing spirits. He is not preaching the Cross of Jesus Christ and repentence from sin. He might quote a scripture here and there but he is leading the multitudes to another jesus.
I don’t think Todd is open to questions about his practices or teaching. I don’t think he cares what we think.
May 29, 2008 at 8:03 pm
r180
I’m not defending Todd… but am also not attacking him.
Regarding the angelic encounter… absolutely!!! That happens! I know someone… a 14 year old girl… who that happened to. It’s very, very, very real.
Spiritual things have to be discerned spiritually… there is an invisible, supernatural realm where angels and demons exist. It’s real… for sure.
Why wouldn’t it be? It’s fully scriptural.
May 29, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Lee
r180,
Since you’re on staff at IHOP then you are aware of the “foundational revelation” of IHOP provided by Bob Jones and Paul Cain, right? Well, since both of these guys have been discredited as false prophets — not to mention their sex scandals — what does this say about IHOP’s foundation? Mike Bickle is fast and loose with scripture using lots of eisegesis rather than exegesis. Just one example, how can Bickle assert there will be cities of refuge in his eschatology? Just where is that in scripture?
I know someone personally whose son and daughter-in-law who are at IHOP were told to cut off all communication with her by the “wise counsel” of Allen Hood. Does that sound right to you? Sounds cultish to me.
I know — well, knew — someone personally who is caught up in some of the teachings of Bickle (Latter Rain, Bridal Paradigm, etc.) as I began to give my concerns over some of this teaching she promptly cut off all communication with me and insisted I do the same. I’ve not heard from her (nor have I contacted her as per her request) for over a year. Once again, very cult-like.
There are certainly things about IHOP that seem very noble; but, once again, it’s about doctrine. Jesus is the Word made flesh; so, doctrine is obviously very important.
And, yes I’ve felt the presence of God; but, I won’t seek after signs and wonders as these can be deceiving (Matthew 24, etc). I’ll seek Him through the Word and prayer.
May 29, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Mary
r 180,
what would you consider a demonic encounter if not the example I gave you above?
May 29, 2008 at 8:25 pm
r180
This is an excellent example of the problem with a site like this… lots of 3rd and 4th party insight… without clarity. To make a statement that a ministry is cult-like is presumptuous… without full revelation of what’s going on.
I’m guessing you are wrestling with theology that would be categorized as a non-absolute. For example the city of refuge point. To hold to a belief that includes cities of refuges wouldn’t put that person at risk of losing their salvation.
Regarding signs and wonders… if we’re not experiencing them, we should ask why. If it’s demonic, it will be clear. Remember, we are to be doing works greater than what Jesus did. We are to all have dreams and visions, all are to prophesy, etc.
We are spiritual people… and are to experience the wonder of the manifested presence of Jesus.
Also, keep in mind that there are differing opinions of what a false prophet is. Many of Bob Jones’ prophecies have come to pass… stunning stuff. Does that mean he’s perfect? Nope. Has he failed? If he’s anything like me, yep!
May 29, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Lee
To make a statement that a ministry is cult-like is presumptuous…
It IS cultlike to cut off those who are not in agreement with your theology! This is exactly what the JWs and Mormons, etc. do. It’s not being presumptuous, it is telling it like it is!
May 29, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Lee
Signs and wonders follow the Word. There must be both. Without solid doctrine signs and wonders must be suspect. Do you not deny that signs and wonders are present with witch doctors, Reiki practitioners and kundalini shaktipats?
May 29, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Lee
We are to all have dreams and visions, all are to prophesy, etc.
Right there is scripture being taken out of context. I’ll ask you to show where this is in scripture.
May 29, 2008 at 8:34 pm
r180
You are complicating it. Make a list of the absolutes of scripture. If we can agree on those, then we’re brothers and sisters. If not, then we are not.
From what I understand you are saying, every group that holds to theological points contrary to your own is a cult? I can’t image that’s what you are saying.
There are so many different Christian groups out there. Everything from Baptist to Assembly of God to Vineyard to Methodist. Are they all cults?
May 29, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Lee
Also, keep in mind that there are differing opinions of what a false prophet is. Many of Bob Jones’ prophecies have come to pass… stunning stuff. Does that mean he’s perfect? Nope. Has he failed? If he’s anything like me, yep!
None are perfect, of course; however, all of God’s prophets MUST prophesy perfectly. Check out Deuteronomy 13:1-15 & 18:14-22.
And, yes, I’m familiar with Bob Jones ‘prophecy’ that prophecy is at best 2/3 accurate. So, how does he get to contradict the Word of God?
May 29, 2008 at 8:36 pm
r180
That’s the point! I take a non-absolute of scripture to mean one thing while you take it to mean another… I think you are off and you think I am off. Does that mean we should attack each other? It’s not healthy. And, it’s arrogant to assume you are the one who is always right. That’s just not possible.
May 29, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Lee
From what I understand you are saying, every group that holds to theological points contrary to your own is a cult? I can’t image that’s what you are saying.
I’ve even CLARIFIED what I’ve said above. Do you still refuse to see it? Cults tend to close out anyone who threaten their belief system. It is their way of closing off adherents to outside influence. So, if a particular group exhibits this behaviour, then they are acting cult-like. I did not say specifically that IHOP is a cult. I ask you not to put words in my mouth as I certainly do not intend to put words in yours.
May 29, 2008 at 8:40 pm
r180
There’s a difference between false prophecy and poor prophecy. We prophecy in part. We’re human… and, remember, we are all to prophesy… so, it’s possible as we’re learning our gift… discovering how to hear God clearly… that we might miss it at times. There is grace… it doesn’t make us evil or unsaved or deceptive… just human. It’s also possible to prophecy clearly, but then add to it… or try to explain it… and miss it there.
May 29, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Lee
That’s the point! I take a non-absolute of scripture to mean one thing while you take it to mean another…
What exactly are you referring to here? I would like to know so that we can have a civil debate. I’m not attacking you personally. However, I will question your beliefs by backing them up with scripture. I ask you do the same with me. I’m certainly open to correction via properly exegeted scripture.
May 29, 2008 at 8:42 pm
r180
Just be very careful… it’s dangerous to pick out other Christians… to single them out. Must it be done at times? Yes, but the fear of God should be all over the situation. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the things of God to the devil.
To claim that someone is operating demonically is a serious accusation. It must be done in the right context, with that persons core leadership… it can’t be taken lightly.
May 29, 2008 at 8:46 pm
r180
I can easily use scripture… I’m not here to debate scripture though… In fact, I’m attempting to communicate that we can disagree. It’s not a battle to find out who’s smarter or more correct.
Does this make sense? So many people have very different understandings on the non-essentials… and that’s ok. It doesn’t mean that there isn’t a single truth, it simply means that we should be involved in meaningless debate.
So, someone like Todd Bentley may focus on angelic visitations, which in my opinion are very scriptural… but someone else might see it differently. At that juncture, we must humbly admit that we don’t have the full picture and just pray for one another. Trust God’s leadership in their life.
May 29, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Lee
I know the IHOP understanding/teaching of spiritual gifts; but, if you will accept for a moment that the Spirit gives as He determines (1 Cor 12:11) then we have a starting point. If the Holy Spirit is God (of course He is) and He is thereby perfect, then if He gives a gift it will be manifested perfectly by the person who the gift is given to as this person is merely the vehicle used. We don’t learn our gifts.
What do you do with the Deuteronomy scriptures I provided above regarding prophets keeping in mind that God is the same yesterday, today and forever?
May 29, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Lee
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the things of God to the devil.
No, this is not proper exegesis of this scripture. From the Adam Clarke Commentary on Matthew 12:31:
Here the matter is made clear beyond the smallest doubt-the unpardonable sin, as some term it, is neither less nor more than ascribing the miracles Christ wrought, by the power of God, to the spirit of the devil. Many sincere people have been grievously troubled with apprehensions that they had committed the unpardonable sin; but let it be observed that no man who believes the Divine mission of Jesus Christ, ever can commit this sin: therefore let no man’s heart fail because of it, from henceforth and for ever, Amen.
It’s about not truly believing in Jesus. We are to test the spirits [1 John 4:1-3, etc.]
May 29, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Lee
I certainly won’t term this meaningless debate. If Bentley claims to go the the third and then talk about these experiences, that is definitely not biblical for Paul says “man is not permitted to tell” about this in 2 Corinthians 12:1-5.
May 29, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Lee
And, please understand I’m not singling out Bentley out of some personal axe to grind. I’d never even HEARD of him until about six weeks ago. It was then that I began to investigate him as something in my spirit (the gift of discernment) told me that something wasn’t right about the spirit of the Lakeland thing.
May 29, 2008 at 9:12 pm
r180
Now, if I told you the Holy Spirit wasn’t God, you’d have full right to lay into me!
The Bible tells us to practice our gifts. Someone may have the gift of healing, but it’s quite a process of growing through trial and error to hone that gift. The same is true with teaching. Ever see a poor teacher get better and more anointed?
Regarding prophecy, we know in part and we prophesy in part. We see dimly as through a veil. Some parts will be accurate, while others may not be. We are told to desire the gift of prophecy, which speaks to us that it is to be acquired… it’s to come alive in us at some point.
Also, prophetic words are also very often conditional on our participation. Many times they don’t come to pass because of our failure or delay, not God’s and not the one who prophesied.
Also, prophecies may come through dreams or visions… we may not have the exact interpretation… but we are not meant to. Also, time is a factor. It may occur far into the future. There are many factors.
May 29, 2008 at 9:15 pm
r180
2 Cor 12:1-5 actually doesn’t mean what you say it does. See! We can disagree and still not attack… we can still be brothers! Fully saved and desperately in love with Jesus!
May 29, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Lee
What does 2 Cor 12:1-5 say to you? I want to understand your perspective.
May 29, 2008 at 9:37 pm
r180
In that specific instance, certain Divine words couldn’t be uttered. That doesn’t mean you can’t talk about it. Here’s one commentary:
Verse 4. unspeakable — not in themselves, otherwise Paul could not have heard them; but as the explanation states, “which it is not lawful . . . to utter” [ALFORD]. They were designed for Paul’s own consolation, and not for communication to others. Some heavenly words are communicable (Ex 34:6 Isa 6:3). These were not so. Paul had not the power adequately to utter; nor if he had, would he have been permitted; nor would earthly men comprehend them (John 3:12 1Co 2:9). A man may hear and know more than he can speak.
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
May 29, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Lee
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. [1 Cor 13:8-10]
Verse 9 does not mean that we prophesy part right and part wrong, it means we do not prophesy all the time. Otherwise this would conflict with the Deuteronomy verses I cited above. Once the perfect comes (one of 2 things: either we die and get our perfected body; or, when Christ returns) then prophecy will no longer be needed. So, the “imperfect” disappears.
I know you don’t see it this way as that is what you are taught at IHOP; but, can you see how this intrepretation could be valid?
The key to interpreting any scripture is to realize that (other) scripture interprets scripture. If there is an apparent contradiction, then more digging must be done.
And, I’ll reiterate: we do not learn our gifts, we will manifest them perfectly as the mere vehicle God uses. We are imperfect yes; but, when God uses us it is Him and not us. Therefore the, again, the manifestation of the gift will be perfect albeit through an imperfect vessel.