In Todd Bentley’s initiation “ordination” ceremony last week one George
Banov spoke providing Bentley a ‘prophetic word.’ I must say that
initially, at least, he was a welcome relief following the demonic,
frenetic, wild head shakin’ thang of Stacey Campbell. Banov comes in at
6:00 minutes:
A quick internet search could not produce much info on Banov; but, he’s
obviously of the same heretical Latter Rain ‘stream’ as the others on stage.
The reason I wish to call attention to this is the fact that in his ‘word’
Banov uses two Messianic prophetic scriptures and claims God told him these
were for Bentley! Here’s the transcription:
“Todd on behalf of the Eastern European nations and former Communist
Countries, we want to tell you that we acknowledge and honor what’s upon
you. And, we give you the keys for Eastern Europe — especially the poor,
the rejected, the gypsies.
“And The Lord says that because you’ve loved his personal presence there are
two anointings that are released on His presence and I just want to release
those two anointings on you from the LORD. By the way, the Lord says ‘you
are well pleasing son.’ The Father, Abba, says that to you personally. The
first anointing is the anointing of the pleasure of the LORD. [emphasis
mine]
“’Surely He has borne our grief, sickness and weakness and carried our
sorrow and the pain and the punishment of us all. He was considered
stricken, smitten and afflicted by God; but, He was bruised for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities and chastisement
that brought our peace came upon him and by His stripes we were healed and
made whole.’ [Isaiah 53:4-5] And, yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him
and in His presence there is fullness of joy and pleasure for evermore.
[This is apparently a paraphrase of more than one scripture with another.]
And, God’s releasing his pleasure of what He did to Jesus upon you Todd.
“And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45
but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have
loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and
uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and
iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant
joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you.”
Not only does he quote two Messianic scriptures and applies these to
Bentley, he even goes so far as to claim that the Lord referred to Todd as a
‘well pleasing son’ thus putting Bentley on par with Jesus! [Matthew 3:17;
Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22] Does this not show this group to be promoting
Manifest Sons of God doctrine – part of the heresy of the Latter Rain
teachings? And, no one batted an eyelash on stage or in the audience. In
fact, they clapped and cheered.
I wish to point out that there is only one true anointing – the anointing of
the Holy Spirit upon true believers who accept Jesus Christ as their
personal savior.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the
truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but
because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the
liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the
antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has
the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it
does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what
he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you
astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you,
and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you
about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit — just as it
has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:20-27 NIV]
To promote that we can attain Christlikeness this side of glory is
tantamount to denying Jesus Christ’s exclusive Divinity as the One and only
Son of God. As the Apostle John points out above, this is the spirit of
antichrist.
submitted by Craig “Lee” Dorsheimer
DiscernIt 
312 comments
July 5, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Lee
born later… from 1:26
duh… That shoulda been “born earlier…”
July 5, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Lee
Oh I give up! I was right the first time!
July 5, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Ed
“Eat the meat and spit out the bones” is a rather poor analogy when it comes to spiritual truth. Meat and bones are inherently part of each other, but “what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?” (II Corinthians 6:15-16 KJV)
For those people who would advocate it is okay to expose themselves to false teaching, practices and doctrine as long as you can pull some Biblical Truth out of it, the question should be asked, “can you eat bread and spit out the yeast?”
“Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (II Corinthians 5:6 KJV) If a supposed manifestation of God contains ANYTHING false, then no matter how much truth it’s laced with, it should be discarded as TOTAL spiritual poison.
July 5, 2008 at 2:41 pm
cheryl U.
Thank you Ed! That is a great point. I hadn’t thought of relating the leaven Scripture to this point.
July 5, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Lee
Ed,
For those people who would advocate it is okay to expose themselves to false teaching, practices and doctrine as long as you can pull some Biblical Truth out of it, the question should be asked, “can you eat bread and spit out the yeast?”
While I did equate the leaven with the bones, I didn’t take as far as you did. Good point!
July 5, 2008 at 3:17 pm
mbaker
Ed,
‘Spiritual poison’ is a very apt term. Maybe those who won’t take warnings of false teachings to heart would be a more inclined to listen to reason if they knew we were trying to keep them from being spiritually poisoned.
Thanks for bringing that out.
July 5, 2008 at 3:45 pm
cheryl U.
You can tell when a thread is getting long when you can’t remember what has been said in the past–I don’t remember you speaking of leaven and bones Lee. I hope everyone doesn’t mind if I/we start repeating ourselves here. On the other hand, maybe it is just my memory that is bad!
July 5, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Lee
Cheryl,
Well, I actually didn’t write it out here; but, the thought had occurred to me. I didn’t mean to imply that I had written it earlier.
I hope everyone doesn’t mind if I/we start repeating ourselves here.
I know I’ve already done that in trying to prove some points earlier; so, it’s all good! I think it’s inevitable in discourse like this.
July 5, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Lee
Though nonconformer is now banned, I still want to respond to his earlier post although I’m responding WAY later than I initially stated that I would. That’s OK because we know how those ‘conditional prophecies’ are. 😉
Latter rain is a term referring to the new outpouring of the Holy Spirit on today’s Pentecostals. The events of Pentecost are known as the former rain.
The idea of latter rain comes from this Old Testament text, which precedes Joel’s prophecy that God will pour out his Spirit on all people:
Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness.
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.
Joel 2:23
The early Pentecostals connect their own experience of the Spirit with that of the disciples, and Peter’s quoting of Joel’s prophecy in Acts 2: 16-21 is a further prophecy that God would pour out his Spirit again at a later time.
They tend to state that the pouring out of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost as the early autumn rain, and the second pouring out of the Spirit, that they were experiencing, as the later spring rains; the Latter Rain.
The idea of latter rain is found throughout many denominations of Pentecostalism, but specifically the Latter Rain Movement, founded in 1948, teaches that the second coming of Jesus is due to happen soon and that latter rain is evidence for this.
For proper exegesis it’s best to go to Peter’s words in Acts 2:16 then go back to Peter’s reference in Joel. But, first we must set the stage. Jesus told the disciples to go to Jerusalem to wait for the promised Holy Spirit. Up to this point the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals at certain times for God’s purposes. Evidence of this is all throughout the OT. However on the Day of Pentecost referenced in Acts the Holy Spirit indwelled believers for the first time ever! Peter quoted the prophet Joel to explain to the unbelievers in the crowd:
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17″ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy. [Acts 2:16-18 NIV]
In the NIV Study Bible note on verse 17:
last days. In the passage quoted from Joel the Hebrew has “afterward” and the Septuagint “after these things.” Peter interprets the passage as referring specifically to the latter days of the new covenant in contrast to the former days of the old covenant. The age of Messianic fulfillment has arrived.
This is saying the former refers to OT pre-Messianic age, while the latter refers to the new Messianic age beginning at Pentecost’s Holy Spirit outpouring. Note, this is NOT saying that their will be either: 1) a second Holy Spirit outpouring of Pentecost as this is to be ongoing; and, 2) that visions, dreams, prophecies, etc will increase as we approach Jesus’ second coming.
Also, it follows that all people (sons, daughters, young, old, servants) DOES NOT refer to everyone; but, to all types of people regardless of social class, gender, age which the text note also points. To assume this passage refers to everyone directly contradict other NT texts which speak of apostasy and the narrow versus wide gate.
Peter makes it very clear that he is referring to that moment in time in verses 32-33:
32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Regarding verses 19-21, all commentaries I’ve read point to a time yet future to the happenings there at Pentecost. Remember that the “last days” referred to in verse 17 is speaking of the whole Messianic age. However, I do find it interesting that in verse 20 “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood” sounds like a solar eclipse which is likely what happened at Jesus’ crucifixion. Apparently this will happen again near His 2nd coming. Also, verse 19 is cross-referenced with Luke 21:11 and its parallels in Matthew and Mark which refer to famines, pestilences, earthquakes and other natural phenomena.
Going back to Joel 2:23: all commentary I read that refer to it in a symbolic sense rather than its literal sense indicate the ‘former rain’ to be OT and the ‘latter rain’ to be NT beginning with Jesus’ shed blood fulfilling the Mosaic law. This correlates with the NIV study note above on Acts 2:17/Joel 2:28.
However, here’s one commentary which shows how this verse is used (and others) to justify Latter Rain teachings while describing the teaching as “aberrant doctrine.”
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=joe&chapter=2&verse=23#Joe2_23
So, the bottom line in this long post is that Acts 2 was the beginning of the Messianic age with Peter asserting that Pentecost was the initial fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel 2:28-29. Rather than the Holy Spirit falling upon certain individuals at certain times (OT), the Holy Spirit will indwell every new believer from that point forward.
This does not point to a later ‘last of the last days’ ‘super’ outpouring of prophecies, dreams, visions, etc. The plain meaning of these verses is that with the indwelling Holy Spirit in a believer these things will occur but not with increasing magnitude or frequency. And, I don’t take it to mean that every believer will experience these things. There are other gifts of the Spirit listed in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.
July 5, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Lee
Sorry, I meant to italicize “Latter Rain… …evidence for this.” as these were his words I was responding to.
July 5, 2008 at 8:06 pm
julia
Lee – You know this has gone on too long when you start making Seinfeld references in a discussion about Jesus. (Hilarious!)
Everyone – Who else thinks this could be submitted to the world record people for most blog comments?
This has gotten so long a)don’t have time to read it all and b)am starting to be uninterested.
However, this has been fun. When it was suggested to me that I try jumping in to the discussion I thought this would be the kind of thing that would cause blood to shoot out of my eyes. On the contrary, I’ve grown quite fond of you all. (Especially you Lee, but far be it from me to play favorites).
Kim – we came so close to being in agreement! i may be disgusted with emergents but i believe in and practice contemplative prayer. which by the way is now being talked about by many evangelicals like beth moore. God designed us to hold silence before Him. He tells us to be silent on our bed and meditate on His word in the Bible. the problem is, eastern religion and new age have so perverted meditation/contemplation that christians are all freaked out when they hear the words. david talks about meditation constantly. the eastern/new age meditation/contemplation is all about emptying oneself, becoming nothing and no one. satan always perverts what God designed. he can’t create anything new. God designed for us to a)meditate on His Word and His beauty, b)be silent before Him, listen to His voice and think on Him. we do not empty ourselves, in the reverse – we fill ourselves with the Holy Spirit and commune with Him.
cheryl u – i’m thankful for all the work you did. notice the many definitions of prophet/prophesy clearly point out that it’s more than just foretelling future events. regardless if there is a different word for ot prophet and nt prophet, obviously there is more than one form of prophesying. i seek to encourage, exhort, lift up and express the heart of God to people. we are all human and certaintly mess up when we prophesy. i would call a false prophet the ones in jeremiah’s day who were crying “peace, peace” when there was no peace. not someone who gets it wrong here and there but are sincere in their devotion to God and seeking to build up the Bride.
here’s the thing guys – i love Jesus and His Word but i’m no theologian. i didn’t go to Bible college and i’m walking out my salvation with fear and trembling and much prayer and fasting. i feel like at this point i gotta bow out of the deep theological argument. i will humble myself and say that i don’t have all the answers.
July 5, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Lee
Aw come on. It was just getting fun!
I’m no theologian either; but, I do love the Word! I ain’t never been to Bible college or nuthin’.
God designed for us to a)meditate on His Word and His beauty, b)be silent before Him, listen to His voice and think on Him. we do not empty ourselves, in the reverse – we fill ourselves with the Holy Spirit and commune with Him.
It seems to me your version lines up with the Bible rather than the eastern/new age/occult.
July 5, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Lee
(Especially you Lee, but far be it from me to play favorites).
It’s gotta be my hair. That’s what all the girls like!
July 5, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Kim
Julia,
Yes we are to contemplate the Word of God, we are to think about it, and apply it to our lives.
Eastern religion is perverted. Again you have things backward. Eastern religions methods have existed for 1,000 of years. They invented meditation and visualization and it is being adapted into Christianity. Christian terms are being used for occult methods. And you are using these methods to find God. But you will not find God this way…..when you use occult methods you will get occult results. Be careful…God warns us against divination in Deuteromony….
July 5, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Julia Palermo
shucks lee, i think you are my new best friend. the funny thing is, john just said to me the other day out of the blue – “you know who i think should be your best friend?….lee” i perceive the man to be a prophet!
July 5, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Kim
Julia, I have read the contemplative prayer instructions on IHOP’s website.
These are dangerous instructions.
Method #3
We call this “Beholding the Spirit Within.”
The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods.
Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while focusing on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God. It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm.
Once you feel God’s presence, focus on it in a concentrated way.
You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you. The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.
In this time, feel the freedom to stay quiet. Silently ask the Spirit to show you a vision, or slowly and silently say to Him, “I love You. I love You. I love You.”
July 5, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Julia Palermo
kim – seriously, i’m gonna go with lee on this one.
i know the diffence between my Jesus, my Beloved, my Husband, my EVERYTHING, moving on my heart while i sit at His feet in worshipful silence and gaze into His eyes and the devil. That bugger’s never done anything to move my heart to lovesickness and holiness.
July 5, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Julia Palermo
omigosh! they tell you to tell the Holy Spirit you love Him over and over! dangerous indeed. the Third Person of the Trinity might actually get some attention and worship for once. scary.
July 5, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Julia Palermo
was that a little too much on the sarcasm? sorry. something God is working on with me.
July 5, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Lee
Hey, why the switch back to your alter ego sans face?
So, which definition of ‘prophet’ did John prophesy on regarding me? And, just where is John? Yes, you’re your brother’s keeper.
I believe this helps with regard to OT/NT prophets:
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. [Hebrews 1:1-3 NIV]
July 5, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Kim
No, it’s just that i feel i have lost you! All i ask is that you research contemplative prayer and visualization here.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/cp.htm
God Bless and thank you for talking with us.
July 5, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Lee
Kim,
I’ve never looked at the IHOP site on contemplative prayer. Uh-uh. Don’t like it.
Now, meditating on God’s word means studying it, reflecting on it, applying it. And, yes when we prayer we shouldn’t be doing all the talking. We do have to listen. I don’t like that “consumed by the Spirit” terminology.
July 5, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Lee
Julia,
The Gospel of John really spells out the Holy Spirit’s role:
26″When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. [John 15:26 NIV]
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12″I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. [John 16:8-15 NIV]
The Holy Spirit never points to Himself.
July 5, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Kim
Here is their article on it:
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000000385
I hate the teaching of visualization. This is how meditators reach, meet and see their spirit guides. They ask to meet them and the visions appear. Of course they are demonic.
July 5, 2008 at 8:58 pm
julia
here i am, back with my face. happy lee?
well, so far john is 2 for 2 with me. first my healing, and now my friendship with lee. i guess i’d put him on par with ezekiel now.
see my blog to answer your question about john’s whereabouts.
“Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while focusing on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God.”
this is evil???? reading revelation 4 and picturing the throne room of God is dangerous? telling the Holy Spirit you love Him is wrong? again, the devil has never moved my heart to lovesickness for Jesus, given me a hunger to be holy and pure or given me the strength to say no to sin. however, contemplating God, the mystery of His beauty and praying, singing, saying and writing the scripture has. believe me, just as ardently as i serve the Lord in prayer and fasting, i once served the devil in drinking and drugs – i know the devil as well as i know Jesus and can tell them apart.
July 5, 2008 at 9:06 pm
julia
i agree lee – the Holy Spirit is humble and always seeks to exalt Jesus, just as Jesus seeks to exalt the Father. we still tell Holy Spirit we love Him. He is just as much a person as the Father and Son.
Holy Spirit has feelings otherwise how could we grieve Him? Holy Spirit loves us, the Word says he yearns jealously for us. so can’t we love Him back? the Holy Spirit speaks to me of what is yet to come???? hence, prophesy. i love Holy Spirit with a ferocity. you don’t want to get into a debate with me about Him.
July 5, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Kim
What are you thinking about when you are silent and focusing on the Spirit? Are you concentrating?
Please be careful and and never empty your mind. Even saying I love you over and over again becomes a mantra if repeated enough. The repetition is forbidden in scripture. No vain repetitions. If you alter your state of consciousness, you have crossed a line.
July 5, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Lee
here i am, back with my face. happy lee? Yes, happilee. 😉
I’m glad you were delivered from drinking and drugs. Praise God!
I don’t subscribe to that Bridal Paradigm thing as I don’t like the term ‘lovesick’ and I don’t envision Jesus this way. He loves us, yes; but, He’s not lovesick for us.
While we as Christians have access to the Holy of Holies/Most Holy Place when Jesus tore the veil by his atoning work on the cross, I’m not so sure about Bickle’s teachings on the throne room of Revelation 4. Bickle seems fixated on certain parts of scripture: SOS, Sermon on the Mount, certain passages of Revelation, yet my understanding is he’s not much on Paul’s letters.
July 5, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Kim
Yes, I too am glad to hear that you escaped the world of drinking and drugs. I was too set free from alcohol.
God is so good to us.
July 5, 2008 at 9:20 pm
julia
when i am silent and focusing on Holy Spirit i am concentrating on my love for Jesus and scripture (usually revelation 4 or john 4).
vain repetition – it’s the vain part we must heed. there is nothing wrong with repitition when it’s coming from the deepest place of our hearts.
the old testament practice of meditation was done and taught by jewish rabbis. the word used for meditation actually means to mutter to oneself. they would repeatedly quote the scripture to themselves.
here is an example of what might be going on in my head while concentrating on Holy Spirit:
“Jesus, I love you. I want to be with You where You are. Holy Spirit I bless you. Thank you for dwelling in me. Strengthen me with might in my inner man. Enlarge my heart. Cause me to love Jesus more. Cause me to have the same love for Jesus that You have. Jesus, I love you. I love you so much. Jesus. Jesus. Jeeessssuuuusssss. Thank you for saving me. ‘inward groan/sigh'” etc….
if i repeat anything over and over it will be the name of Jesus. there is nothing vain about it. the more i think about it, say it over and over, the more i am moved to love. just talking about that name overwhelmes me. the name of the Lord is a strong tower – the righteous run in to it and are safe.
July 5, 2008 at 9:29 pm
julia
i have been here for 6 months – i’ve heard mike preach from many of the epsitles however, he is most known for sos, revelation teaching. that is his personal mandate from the Lord to teach. however many teachers at IHOP teach various subjects. allen hood is the best teacher i’ve ever heard on the cross or anything about Jesus! corey russell teaches mostly from paul’s letters. there are so many amazing teachers here – including john. it’s a shame to only focus on mike and he wouldn’t want it that way either.
yes, Jesus is lovesick over me. it’s evident from Genesis to Revelation. when it says the Spirit yearns jealously how else can we take it but that God is lovesick for us? how can Jesus tolerate torture and death beyond measure unless it is out of a kind of love we cannot comprehend? what manner of love is this? it is called “the Passion of Christ” (and i am not talking about the movie) for a reason. it was pure passion for us that kept Him on that cross when He had every resource in heaven available to get Him off of it. i cannot accept anything less. i cannot imagine God loving me any less than i love Him because only He can give me the ability to love Him in the measure I do. therefore, it must only be a portion of what He feels for me since He’s way bigger and purer than me. the problem we humans have with the bridal paradigm and lovesickness is that we think of these things with human understanding of love between people. Jesus’ passion for us is not anything like human passion or sensual love. it is far above and beyond that.
i’m in love with Jesus and unashamadly i can say with complete confidence that He is in love with me too.
July 5, 2008 at 9:31 pm
julia
good grief, all they let us pray on the mic here are the apostolic prayers of the epistles – that should tell you something about how much Mike esteems paul’s letters.
July 5, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Kim
The repetition is ALWAYS wrong if it is not done with concentration. Even if you use the word Jesus, it becomes meaningless when repeated over and over again without thought. This is a deception of the enemy.
Only you know what is in your mind when you pray…When the disciples asked the Lord how to pray He gave them the Lord’s Prayer.
Eastern meditators also feel extreme love when engaged in their methods. So this is still not a guarantee that what you are feeling is not a paranormal experience which is occult. Be careful….please. Satan comes as an angel of light giving pleasure.
July 5, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Lee
The Hebrew for meditate according to Strong’s:
to utter a sound, moan, meditate; to mutter; from the base meaning of uttering a sound of any kind comes figure of meditation, the act or thoughtful deliberation with the implication of speaking to oneself
Apparently, it has multiple meanings and has been translated as (followed by the number of times it appears in kJV):
meditate -6
mourn -3
speak -3
imagine -2
studieth -2
muttered -1
mutter -1
roaring -1
speaketh -1
talk -1
uttering -1
utter -1
July 5, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Kim
“it was pure passion for us that kept Him on that cross when He had every resource in heaven available to get Him off of it.”
It was our sin that put Jesus on that cross. Mine and yours.
July 5, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Lee
Well, apparently I only got 1/2 the info regarding the teaching of the Pauline letters at IHOP.
Well, I’m going to have to call it a night as I’ve not been getting enough sleep as of late. One of these days I’ll get an early night…
But, we’ll do it again!
July 5, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Julia Palermo
i agree – our sin was the reason He had to go to the cross but tell me how He does this without pure, unadulterated passion and love for us? give me a break. you know that you or i would never get up there and He was fully human just like us. my saviour died for me because He loves me. end of story. it was God’s love that sent Him to die (For God SO LOVED the world – remember that?) and Jesus is God. i don’t understand your argument at all.
GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS – THAT HE LAY DOWN HIS LIFE…
July 5, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Kim
I know…you have been really, really busy…
Goodnight Lee,
Goodnight Julia…. i do love you.
July 5, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Julia Palermo
Lee – I pray God breaks in and gives you dreams and visions in the night watches. hee, hee. 🙂
Kim – God gives pleasure. just because satan can do it too doesn’t mean we don’t ask for it from God. will God give you a stone when you ask for a fish? if I’m asking God for pleasure how is it I get it from satan again? since i am continually in prayer and the Word, why would God allow satan to give me pleasure? i don’t get this at all. i spend at least 4-6 hours a day with God on my face in prayer and worship of God, speaking His own Word back to Him. how is it that satan is going to break in with such power in my life? i don’t offer him any room in my life. i ask God to search my heart and see if there is any wicked way in me at least 20 times a day #1 because i know my own capacity for wickedness, #2 because i don’t want to get off track and #3 because i don’t want any open door for the devil in my life. so while i am not perfect, i’m pretty secure in the direction i am going. plus, i have Godly authority figures in my life like john who, believe me, will tell me when i am off track!
July 5, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Julia Palermo
p.s. – i love you too kim. so does Jesus. He is ravished over the fact that you would talk about Him on your blog. He’s absolutely lovesick over you. You are His favorite one.
Goodnight all.
July 5, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Kim
Yes of course, God loves us. But He is also a God of wrath.
Have you ever studied justification or propitiation in Romans?
Justification is God’s answer to one most important question. How can we be right with God? We are all under God’s wrath. We are only justified by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Paul teaches this is in Romans 3:24-26. God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood.
We do not deserve salvation, but God saves us anyway because it pleases Him to do it.
Then Paul goes on to explain that faith is our channel for justifiction. What a wonderful gift.
God’s wrath of mankind had to be dealt with. God loves us but He is also a God of wrath. It had to be appeased. We cannot appease God’s wrath so Jesus Himself through his death appeased God. Propitiation means turning the wrath of God aside. This describes the relation of God to Jesus. Jesus satisfied God’s wrath of sin.
Therefore we are justified, and we have redemption setting us free.
So i hear what you are saying:
“it was God’s love that sent Him to die” which is true but God is also a God of wrath because of our sin which also sent Jesus to the Cross.
July 5, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Kim
“because i don’t want any open door for the devil in my life.”
I know your desire to serve the Lord is sincere. I don’t doubt that for a second.
If you do not want to open a door for the devil then stay clear of anything that alters your consciousness. If you defy Deut 18: 10 “Let no one be found among you who..practices divination or sorcery…”12. “Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord.” then you open the door, and you will lose protection.
There is a huge spiritual deception in the church right now and there are many false teachers. In almost all the churches. This goes across the board. All i ask is to be careful of the meditation. It is a doorway to the occult so don’t willingly walk through it.
Read your Bible from the front to the back….when done..start over.
Okay, you are probably sick of me…..
Goodnight Julia.
ps. Psalms 139:23-24 is a favorite verse too.
“Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive say in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. ”
Good
July 5, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Chairos Seeker
Julia, the term “lovesick” means to languish due to love; that is, to become weak or enfeebled by love. I don’t doubt that you’ve heard others use the word “lovesick” to describe Jesus’ love for His church or its members. But, as you can see from its meaning, it’s not a very appropriate word. I would go so far as to suggest that it’s a theologically erroneous word. There is nothing feeble about Jesus or His Great Love for us that He demonstrated on the cross.
That said, I’m sure you used the word with the best of intentions. But, I urge you to find some better word or phrase that does no insult to Our Lord.
Blessings,
July 6, 2008 at 5:18 am
Julia Palermo
Kim – i am not sick of of you. 😉 i am aware that God’s wrath was upon us due to sin and that Jesus had to be made an acceptable sacrifice. in fact, He poured all of His wrath out on Jesus while He was on the cross. i cannot imagine that. i just don’t understand why anyone can’t admit that Jesus died for us because He loved us. i grew up in a pretty conservative evangelical Bible church and long before i ever heard of IHOP, i understood that point pretty clearly. the prayer He prays in John 17 makes it pretty clear to me. yes, our sin needed to be atoned and Jesus was the sacrifice. but people – God has no need of us. he could’ve let us all go to hell. or he could’ve destroyed creation and went on without us. the only explanation for God’s plan of salvation and Jesus coming to die is pure love for us. He didn’t HAVE to do. He owes us nothing, we deserve death. His wrath could’ve been appeased by blowing up the earth and never creating another human being again. instead God became man (the most ridiculous thing ever) and then subjected Himself to a brutal death. that can only be out of love.
honestly and sincerely, i am 100% positive i am not involved in anything related to the occult, eastern religion or the new age. Holy Spirit is very good about giving me a check when i go in any direction on anything that i shouldn’t. but thank you for your concern. i ask Him to lead me and guide me in to all truth every day. because no teacher is perfect, we must rely on Holy Spirit as Paul says, we have no need of a teacher other than Him.
i have read my Bible cover to cover several times and continue to do so. right now i am reading the Gospels. now if you want to talk about a contriversial teacher – let’s talk about Jesus. He spit in people’s eyes, broke laws and told one guy he could only follow Him if he left his dead family member at home and skipped the funeral. sorry but i’m getting undone reading matthew. Jesus is amazing and i love Him.
Chairos Seeker – perhaps we subscribe to different interpretations of the Song of Solomon and this is where we can’t agree. but i like this for sure:
“There is nothing feeble about Jesus or His Great Love for us that He demonstrated on the cross.”
Amen to that!
July 6, 2008 at 6:34 am
Lee
Julia,
Good morning!
now if you want to talk about a contriversial teacher – let’s talk about Jesus. He spit in people’s eyes, broke laws and told one guy he could only follow Him if he left his dead family member at home and skipped the funeral. sorry but i’m getting undone reading matthew.
Jesus didn’t actually break any law. He always obeyed the laws of the land. However, He did ‘break’ the Pharasaical manmade laws. The Sabbath was a day or rest, yes; but, the ‘religious’ Jews took it too far. To heal on the Sabbath was not to break the Sabbath.
21Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
22But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” [Matthew 8:21-22 NIV]
This didn’t mean the man’s father was dead or even on his deathbed. From the Adam Clarke Commentary:
It was usual for the Jews to consider a man as dead who had departed from the precepts of the law; and, on this ground, every transgressor was reputed a dead man. Our Lord’s saying, being in common use, had nothing difficult in it to a Jew. Natural death is the separation of the body and soul; spiritual death, the separation of God and the soul: men who live in sin are dead to God. Leave the spiritually dead to bury their natural dead.
From the Barnes’ Notes on New Testament:
The word dead is used in this passage in two different senses. It is apparently a paradox, but is fitted to convey his idea very distinctly to the mind. The Jews used the word dead often to express indifference towards a thing; or rather, to show that that thing has no influence over us. Thus, to be dead to the world; to be dead to the law Romans 7:4; to be dead to sin Romans 6:11; means that the world, law, and sin, have not influence or control over us; that we are free from them, and as as though they were not. A body in the grave is unaffected by the pomp and vanity, by the gaiety and revelry, by the ambition and splendour that may be near the tomb. So men of the world are dead to religion. They see not its beauty; hear not its voice; are not won by its loveliness. This is the class of men to which the Saviour referred here. Let men, says he, who are uninterested in my work, and who are dead in sin, (Ephesians 2:1,) take care of the dead. Your duty is now to follow me.
There may have been two reasons for this apparently rash direction. One was to test the character and attachment of the man. If he had proper love for Christ, he would be willing to leave his friends even in the most tender and trying circumstances.. This is required, Matthew 10:27; Luke 14:26. A second reason might have been, that if he returned, at that time, his friends might ridicule or oppose him, or present plausible arguments, in the afflictions of the family, why he should not return to Christ.
July 6, 2008 at 6:44 am
Lee
All,
I just clicked over to Julia’s site and saw that John Burton and his wife took their baby down to Lakeland for a miraculous healing. They need our prayers.
In Christ,
Lee
July 6, 2008 at 7:21 am
mbaker
Julia,
Thank you for alerting us to this. Although we may disagree on things like Lakeland, we can all come together for John Burton and his baby in prayer.
God bless.
July 6, 2008 at 8:55 am
Kim
Yes, this is a desperate situation. I will pray for John and his family.
July 6, 2008 at 10:14 am
Julia Palermo
Thank you for your prayers, it is a serious situation involving two people I love dearly. We are all believing God for a miracle.
Love and peace to you all.
July 6, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Mary B.
I will pray for John’s baby but I can’t do that without asking the Lord to deliver him from such blatent false teaching.
July 6, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Mary B.
deliver him meaning John Burton.
July 9, 2008 at 6:33 am
Bud Press
Cheryl U wrote:
“I have a question for you re the Matthew Scripture about seeing Jesus. I have always interpreted that to mean people claiming a literal, bodily Jesus here on this earth, not to visions of Jesus etc. The reason for my belief is that Stephen, John, and Paul all saw Jesus in one way or another after the resurrection. So how can we discount the possibility of possible visions of Him now?”
Hi Cheryl:
I apologize for the delay in this response. That is a good question, and I appreciate your asking.
First, Jesus can do anything He wants. He is God Himself in human form, the Creator of the universe, and second Person of the Trinity. However, He will not contradict His word or change His mind to fit the occasion.
Second, important questions need to be asked, not for the purpose of “answering a question with a question” or avoiding the issue, but simply because questions play an important role in providing answers.
Thus, concerning visions of Jesus, here are some important questions to consider:
— Where does the vision originate? (i.e., thoughts, day-dreams, imagination, personal curiosity, or desire?)
— What is the purpose of the vision?
— We know the Bible speaks of visions in both the Old and New Testaments. But if it is possible for modern-day Christians to have visions of Jesus, why would we need the Bible, when all we would have to do is talk to “Jesus”?
— During a vision, do Jesus’ words perfectly match with His words in the Bible?
— Who is claiming the vision? (solid, Bible-based Christian or false teacher?)
— By what standard do Christians test a dream or vision of “Jesus”? Do we simply take the person’s word or trust God’s word?
— How do modern-day Christians know what Jesus looks like?
Another important question is, “How do we know that the “Jesus” in a thought, dream, vision, or personal visitation is the real Jesus?
2. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search on “visions of Jesus” and came up with over 295,000 hits. Here are some descriptions of “Jesus” during a vision:
— sitting in a wheelchair.
— dressed in a nurse’s uniform.
— dressed in purple, or red, or a dirty white robe with dusty sandals.
— laying in a bed covered with a sheet.
— turned into three men, then one, then three again.
— looked the same as in a picture on a wall.
— had a deep voice, soft voice, thunderous voice, or communicated telepathically.
— tall, short, stocky built, long hair,short hair, beard, clean shaven, blond hair, black hair, brown hair, reddish-brown hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, eyes like clear crystal, skin color of black, brown, white, pink.
— wore crown of thorns, bleeding from hands and feet, wore wings.
— appeared as a bright light, light-blue light, blinding light, coming with jet planes in the sky.
— appeared on breakfast toast, grilled-cheese sandwich, fried fish-stick, potatoes, sides of buildings, inside churches, in the clouds, and in dark bedrooms and hotel rooms.
Here is a photo/vision of “Jesus in the clouds,” where those interested may spend between $5.00 to $109.00 for copies
( http://www.divineson.com/getacopy.asp ).
And on, and, on, and on.
Yet, the Bible teaches that Satan has the ability to deceive the believer and disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13-15).
3. During Old Testament times, the landscape was littered with false prophets, who foretold false dreams and visions:
Jeremiah 14:4: Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.
Jeremiah 23:25: I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, ‘I had a dream, I had a dream!’
Lamentations 2:14: Your prophets have seen for you false and foolish visions; And they have not exposed your iniquity so as to restore you from captivity, but they have seen for you false and misleading oracles.
Ezekiel 13:2: Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy from their own inspiration, ‘Listen to the word of the LORD!’
Ezekiel 13:9: So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 22:8: Her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD has not spoken.
And there are more false prophets today than anytime in the history of the world.
4. A modern-day dream, vision, or visitation of “Jesus” is a private, one-on-one encounter. But in John 18:20, Jesus said, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.”
Colossians 2:18-19: Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, TAKING HIS STAND ON VISIONS HE HAS SEEN, INFLATED WITHOUT CAUSE BY HIS FLESHLY MIND, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God (emp. added).
Acts 3:18-21: But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE UNTIL THE PERIOD OF RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time (emp. added).
In other words, Jesus will remain in heaven until His return, and He knows that modern-day people and believers’ do not know what He looks like. Therefore, the following Scriptures apply to dreams, visions, and visitations:
Matthew 24:23: Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
Matthew 24:26: So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
A good rule-of-thumb to remember is:
“If anything is contrary to Scripture, it is wrong. If anything is the same as Scripture, it is not needed. If anything goes beyond Scripture, it has no authority.” (Curtis Crenshaw)
God bless,
Bud
July 9, 2008 at 9:06 am
mbaker
Bud,
Your comment is very concise and clearly stated regarding whether Jesus can be seen in the physical.
Since the discussion involved Matthew 24:24, about the warning to the elect about being being deceived, I would like to add an additional thought.
Many Christians I know, and have met in my prayer ministry through the years, genuinely love the Lord, but in their zeal to “prove” Christianity is the real deal they consider powerful manifestations of the Holy Spirit, and signs and wonders to be necessary in order to do this. They seem to somehow forget Christ alone is our living proof that everything God says is true.
Because of the current obsession in the modern day prophetic movement with what they call the “power” gifts, however, we are seeing the attention taken off the cross, and put upon the actions (or inaction, as the case may be) of the church as proof of Christianity. This is reflected in the current obsession with prophecy, and what seems to be turning into an idolatrous form of prophet worship at this revival in Lakeland.
While folks give that “Look at the fruit” line as counter proof, we cannot always rely on fruit that merely looks good to be good fruit. That was Adam and Eve’s mistake. Even though God had warned them, they went by appearances, i.e “the fruit was pleasing to the eye”. I think many fine Christians are failing into the same trap of failing to heed God’s warnings about all the signs and wonders of this apostate age, and instead are trying to compete for turf when it comes to signs and wonders of their own. Indeed, it seems, even trying to manufacture them when they aren’t really there, such as the mounting number of testimonies that are revealing this revival isn’t all it’s hyped up to be.
I believe the most important gift we as believers can exhibit for the good of the church nowadays is that of real discernment. It may not always be popular with our peers, but it will help keep the truth of God intact for the generations who come after us, just as was done for us.
July 9, 2008 at 11:55 am
Layla
Because of the current obsession in the modern day prophetic movement with what they call the “power” gifts, however, we are seeing the attention taken off the cross, and put upon the actions (or inaction, as the case may be) of the church as proof of Christianity.
Taken off the cross of Christ….. put to much focus on the Holy Spirit… seems to lead to a different gospel…..
July 9, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Layla
This is an interesting
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/the-new-breed-and-stigmata/
July 20, 2008 at 9:48 am
Lee
See Bill’s exposition on the Stacey Campbell’s blasphemous ‘word’ which is, in my estimation, worse than Banov’s:
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2008/07/getting-past-manifestations-what-was.html
I couldn’t stomach her head-shakin’ long enough to be able to attempt to transcribe her ‘word.’ Kudos Bill!
February 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Charlie
Matthew 5:9
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”
Romans 8:14
“because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”
Romans 9:26
and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,”
We are sons of God
February 10, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Kim
Upon reading the above verses, (the KJV has all verses except the Romans 8 verse as the “children of God”), in context. I have to summarized this way:
The children of God are peacemakers, who are lead by the Holy Spirit and not the flesh. The Israelites will again someday be called the children of God. Those who have faith in Jesus Christ, those who live by faith and not by sight are also the children of God.
Is this supposed to sound like the fruit of Todd Bentley?
July 14, 2009 at 5:31 am
Adrian Kelsor
QUOTE- He even goes so far as to claim that the Lord referred to Todd as a
‘well pleasing son’ thus putting Bentley on par with Jesus
The bible says we are sons and daughters of God. So God cannot be pleased with His children he created because you said so?
July 14, 2009 at 7:21 am
Kim
We are instructed to test the fruit and like the scripture Lee gave in 1 John 2:27, to test for counterfeit anointing.
Going further into 1 John 3 it continues to talk about the children of God. verse 6 says “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”
I have to ask how if someone is a true child of God how can they be in an adulterous affair, flagrant in their sin, while on stage ministering to others?
“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love is brother.” 1 John 3:9-10
This is the word of God not Lee’s, or mine.