In Todd Bentley’s initiation “ordination” ceremony last week one George
Banov spoke providing Bentley a ‘prophetic word.’ I must say that
initially, at least, he was a welcome relief following the demonic,
frenetic, wild head shakin’ thang of Stacey Campbell. Banov comes in at
6:00 minutes:
A quick internet search could not produce much info on Banov; but, he’s
obviously of the same heretical Latter Rain ‘stream’ as the others on stage.
The reason I wish to call attention to this is the fact that in his ‘word’
Banov uses two Messianic prophetic scriptures and claims God told him these
were for Bentley! Here’s the transcription:
“Todd on behalf of the Eastern European nations and former Communist
Countries, we want to tell you that we acknowledge and honor what’s upon
you. And, we give you the keys for Eastern Europe — especially the poor,
the rejected, the gypsies.
“And The Lord says that because you’ve loved his personal presence there are
two anointings that are released on His presence and I just want to release
those two anointings on you from the LORD. By the way, the Lord says ‘you
are well pleasing son.’ The Father, Abba, says that to you personally. The
first anointing is the anointing of the pleasure of the LORD. [emphasis
mine]
“’Surely He has borne our grief, sickness and weakness and carried our
sorrow and the pain and the punishment of us all. He was considered
stricken, smitten and afflicted by God; but, He was bruised for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities and chastisement
that brought our peace came upon him and by His stripes we were healed and
made whole.’ [Isaiah 53:4-5] And, yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him
and in His presence there is fullness of joy and pleasure for evermore.
[This is apparently a paraphrase of more than one scripture with another.]
And, God’s releasing his pleasure of what He did to Jesus upon you Todd.
“And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45
but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have
loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and
uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and
iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant
joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you.”
Not only does he quote two Messianic scriptures and applies these to
Bentley, he even goes so far as to claim that the Lord referred to Todd as a
‘well pleasing son’ thus putting Bentley on par with Jesus! [Matthew 3:17;
Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22] Does this not show this group to be promoting
Manifest Sons of God doctrine – part of the heresy of the Latter Rain
teachings? And, no one batted an eyelash on stage or in the audience. In
fact, they clapped and cheered.
I wish to point out that there is only one true anointing – the anointing of
the Holy Spirit upon true believers who accept Jesus Christ as their
personal savior.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the
truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but
because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the
liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the
antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has
the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it
does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what
he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you
astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you,
and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you
about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit — just as it
has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:20-27 NIV]
To promote that we can attain Christlikeness this side of glory is
tantamount to denying Jesus Christ’s exclusive Divinity as the One and only
Son of God. As the Apostle John points out above, this is the spirit of
antichrist.
submitted by Craig “Lee” Dorsheimer
DiscernIt 
312 comments
July 2, 2008 at 4:52 am
thenonconformer
(Jer 32:27 KJV) Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
(Neh 8:10 KJV) Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
July 2, 2008 at 4:56 am
Lee
I’m sorry; but, what is your point? Quoting two different scriptures in isolation with no additional exposition leaves lots of ambiguity.
July 2, 2008 at 6:41 am
John Burton
I love this post:
Todd Bentley : Bill Johnson : Excellent Response : Godly Support
Jul 1st, 2008 | By John Burton | Category: General, Revival and Prayer | Edit
I’m borrowing this from my buddy Chris Ferguson’s blog (soulpants.wordpress.com).
This is an EXCELLENT response to a question about Todd Bentley.
Remember, Todd Bentley hasn’t violated any absolutes of scripture. He is a Christian. Certainly many may hold to differing theological viewpoints in the realm of the ‘non-absolutes’.
He is a brother and God loves him very much:
The Heresey Hunters, the skeptics, and the cynics have all been abuzz commenting and opinionating on Todd Bentley and the Lakeland revival. Bill Johnson gave an excellent response to an email he received recently.
It’s a big challenge to us all not to be so quick to sit in judgement of others….
“How in God’s name can you endorse Todd Bentley?” (email sent to Bill Johnson)
“Have you spent time with Todd?
Do you know him?
Have you watched him with his wife?
Have you seen how he treats his kids?
Have you spent any time with his staff?
Have you been to his ministry?
Has he been to yours?
Have you laid hands on him and prayed?
Has he laid hands on you and prayed?
Have you grieved over tragedy together?
Have you celebrated victory together?
Has he sought your counsel and has he travelled great distance just to meet with you privately for advice?
Have you ever recieved his counsel?
Have you ever been in the room when God shows up on him, used him in stunning miracles?
Have you seen him operate in word of knowledge and the prophetic?
Have you met with his council of elders?
Have you personally benefited from his gift?
Has he benefited from your gift and ministry?
Has he ever honoured you for who you are in God?
Has he partnered with you as a friend?
Have you sacrificed for his welfare, for that of his family?
Have you sought God with him?
Have you ever worshipped the Lord with him?
I didn’t think so…..
I have, and I will continue to support those I have walked with in life and ministry
He is my friend
More importantly God calls him friend
and if you and I were ever friends at that level and people hated you, turned against you, started web pages to tear down your ministry, criticised you to your friends,
wrote against you in christian magazines, criticised you on the radio, wrote emails to other conference speakers and authors…
I’d still be your friend
By the way, criticism in the form of a question, is not a question.
But to respond to your statement “how in God’s name can you endorse Todd Bently?”
Its easy, I do it in God’s name.”
Food for thought
To listen to the whole podcast visit Bethel Church and the podcast is called the Loyalty of Bethel
July 2, 2008 at 7:32 am
Timh
The deceived are just plain deceived!!! To claim the scriptures that were meant for and prophetic about Christ for onesself is nothing more than selfish-pride. Man-made-vain-imagination-calling- oneself-the-Christ!!!! God have mercy on anyone who claims that title. The scriptures are full of what will become of those who claim such status and the fear of God is not in them.
I am sadden that so many brothers and sisters are dupped into this stuff. I realize that many are searching for the “power” but they are looking in the wrong place. How can I say that you would ask? I have been there, done that, and now I am free from the error of the teaching of this fringe of charimania.
Thanks Lee for catching that and posting on this.
July 2, 2008 at 9:17 am
Kim
Hi John,
It is plain to see that Bentley’s friend supports him but i believe we are to be Bereans and search the scriptures to see if what people say it true when it is filtered through the Word of God. Therefore it is not necessary to.. be with…see..meet with…be in the same room..with Bentley. We can assess his ministry by comparing what he says and does with the Word of God.
Paul did not call the Bereans heresy hunters. This term is merely a deflection device and implies wrong doing on those who question teachings. Those who are in the Word and teaching should welcome such scrutiny, because they long for the Truth.
Do you think Bentley should have corrected Banov?
July 2, 2008 at 10:18 am
John Burton
Kim, of course we should be Bereans (remember, the Bereans we’re ‘more noble’ not because they studied the scriptures alone, but because they did so eagerly! They wanted this fresh move of God! They weren’t suspicious, but expectant!)- but a severe problem is when we use our own study of scripture and then attempt to enforce our interpretation of it in other’s lives. It’s arrogant. You and most others have no right to do so, especially when many other Christians have opposite viewpoints than you do. Why are you right and others wrong? Why is your interpretation of scripture right and others wrong? I just can’t figure out why you presume this. It’s divisive.
I’ve asked many times- what if I disagree with an interpretation of scripture that you hold to? What if Todd does? Do you count us as non-Christians?
Always keep in mind the very important teaching on the absolutes of scripture. We are not to tear each other down… but, as the body of Christ we are to love one another.
To call someone a heretic simply because they have a differing interpretation of a non-absolute than you do is so clearly out of line.
Again, we must stand firm (still in love) on the absolutes, but humbly agree to disagree on the rest.
When I hear people calling people or movements heretical without having sufficient insight into them, it’s blows me away. I’ve heard attacks like this happen here- and have just thought, “Man, they want so badly to be right, they are picking apart converstations and quoting people in a haphazard way… much like the press does. If they only know the person they would see how misinformed they really are.”
It often happens that people will make a judgment simply based on sight: “I don’t like that she shakes a lot, so I’ll make the final call- that person is demonic.”
How terrible is this? I watched people tremble continually this past week as they encountered God in dramatic ways. They all were transformed- they loved people, loved God, were zealous, hungry for the Word, etc. It was amazing- yet, because of a single manifestation, or that they may believe in more ‘charismatic’ ideas, would you call them heretics too?
A very clear example of this is a video that was posted (I think here) that warned that it wasn’t for kids. There was no theology discussed, so it was not possible to draw conclusions there. The ONLY thing that was seen was people manifesting. On that ALONE, people judged it!!
How in the world can this be? It makes no sense, but it’s an evidence of something unhealthy here- there’s a spirit of debate and vision on this website, and a spirit of arrogance. An “I’m right and you’re wrong” attitude. It’s not Christ-like.
July 2, 2008 at 11:17 am
Bud Press
Lee:
Good work! While George Banov’s “prophecy” is blasphemous and disturbing, it may very well be an open window into things to come…
God bless,
Bud
July 2, 2008 at 11:27 am
Bud Press
John Burton:
I have an important question for you. The question may seem ridiculous or an attempt to bait you, but please be assurred it isn’t.
Question: Who do you trust as your ultimate and final authority: Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ?
–Bud
July 2, 2008 at 11:46 am
Lee
John,
Regarding your first comment, Miriam refutes Bill Johnson’s defence of Bentley here:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/bill-johnson-on-todd-bentley-and-lakeland/
And:
1) Why do I need to ‘experience’ Bentley first hand when he constantly gets caught in his lies (among other things) proving his character to be questionable?
2) Why do I need to ‘experience’ Bentley when a test of the spirit(s) behind Lakeland prove to be false on a number of levels including doctrine and practice?
July 2, 2008 at 11:51 am
Lee
But to respond to your statement “how in God’s name can you endorse Todd Bently?”
Its easy, I do it in God’s name.”
This just goes to show how ignorant Johnson truly is. To do anything in “someone’s name” is to do it with same character. What Bentley does is NOT in Jesus Christ’s character; and, for Johnson to claim he can back Bentley in God’s name is in itself blasphemous as Jehovah God is not a liar.
Unless Johnson is endorsing Bentley in the name of some other god…
July 2, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Lee
John,
I will comment on your post of 10:18 later today when I have more time.
July 2, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Lee
Bud,
Yes, I do believe you’re right — this is a prelude of things to come. But, these guys call it an “open portal.”
July 2, 2008 at 12:12 pm
John Burton
Bud- the ultimate authority is Jesus, of course. However, God will use imperfect men (like you and me) to work through.
July 2, 2008 at 12:15 pm
John Burton
Lee, you said:
What Bentley does is NOT in Jesus Christ’s character…
Says who? This is just thing thing I’m talking about. Many would say that Todd, while human and imperfect, does in many ways reflect Jesus.
Here’s the protocol:
Don’t say: What Bentley does is NOT in Jesus Christ’s character…
Do say: In my humble opinion, what Bentley does doesn’t appear to be in Jesus Christ’s character, though I respect those who may have differing views.
July 2, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Lee
Constant lying and then ltrying to cover up his lies with more lying is NOT in Jesus’ Character!
This is not just my opinion this is FACT as his own words contradict one from another on numerous occasions.
July 2, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Lee
John,
Your ‘protocol’ is one of political correctness. I’m quite sure Jehovah God does not care about being pc; but; I’m quite sure He wants us to adhere to His precepts. That is borne out in His Words, the Bible — something which seems to have taken a back seat to political correctness.
Yes, God works through imperfect man; however, He works through repentant man. Bentley lies over and over and remains unrepentant. Now, before you say “How do I know he hasn’t repented before God?” I will say that to repent means to change. He has not changed his lying antics.
July 2, 2008 at 12:30 pm
John Burton
Nope. Lee, you’re at it again. You are accusing me. I would never live a PC life. Have you heard any of my sermons?
I adhere to scripture. I just have differing views than you. Is this ok with you?
You are embracing a prime strategy of Satan- accusation. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Why would you use his methods against God’s people?
July 2, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Layla
Lee,
Before you and Mr. Burton start going at it, unless you have done this already, you might as well look over his web site. You’ll get a little better picture of him and what he believes and follows.
Not eveything is there. I would like some better interaction from him and what he follows, believes, theological stance, etc. That is what I liked so much about our conversation with Zack Hensley at IHOP. We have a pretty good idea where he stands which helps us better communicate.
I will say that I did not interpret your response to John Your ‘protocol’ is one of political correctness. I’m quite sure Jehovah God does not care about being pc;… as stating that you are accusing him of being pc. The word “protocol” (meaning – a code of ceremony and ettiquette followed by diplomates, head of state, and the military) simply makes a statement that this is how understand what he would like to see as the way you address the issues regarding Bentley, not that you are accusing him of living a political correct life style.
I wonder if Jesus would have spoken to Todd Bentley in this way or if Paul would have been PC to those who seem to be outside the guidelines of the very manual we are suppose to pattern our walk with Christ after. I don’t know, I keep going back to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and I don’t see any pattern of Christianity as I see at Lakeland. And the Epistles certainly give some added guidelines to our walk. I wonder how many outside of Christianity look at what’s going on and say, “you fools” as mentioned in 1 Corinthians? What ever happened to decensy and orderliness, but then here it comes, “what is your definition of decent and in order?” Common response to us when this is brought up.
Perhaps we missed the memo that the face of Christianity was going to change in this generation or maybe it was left out of my copy of the scriptures. (Yes I am being very sarcastic at this moment) I guess Jesus is not the same yesterday, today, and forever.
July 2, 2008 at 2:32 pm
John Burton
The wet important pn r-_- –
July 2, 2008 at 2:44 pm
John Burton
Oops… handwriting recognition problems on the last post!
The huge point here is that of humility. To admit that one might be wrong is not to be PC, but rather, it’s respecting other people. It’s admitting, humbly, that your viewpoint of a certain scripture isn’t the only viewpoint.
I’d certainly invite you to visit my website- http://www.praytherevolution.com and http://www.revolutionexperience.com. Listen to the podcasts, the teachings, read the books, etc.
However, I’m not attempting to prove to you that I am right. I am continuing to grow, and there may be theological points I adhere to now, that maybe in five years I will have a different perspective. (I’m referring to the non-absolutes of scripture.)
If you investigate five different Bible colleges, you will discover each one has differing opinions on the non-absolutes of scripture, will you not?
However, if one of those schools were to tell me that Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead, it would be irresponsible for me to send my children there.
Do I adhere to a traditional Baptist interpretation of scripture? Some of it yes, some of it no. However, to call them heretics because I disagree with some of their beliefs would be inappropriate to say the least. In fact, there are many Baptist churches and schools that could bless me greatly!
I know without a doubt that if you were touched by God as Todd Bentley or another (imperfect, weak and fallible) man or woman of God, your approach toward this topic would be very different.
It’s ok to disagree. It’s not ok to defame someone because they disagree with your interpretation of the non-absolutes of scripture. You, in fact, might be the one who is wrong.
July 2, 2008 at 2:45 pm
Bud Press
John Burton:
Thank you for taking the time to reply with,
“Bud- the ultimate authority is Jesus, of course. However, God will use imperfect men (like you and me) to work through.”
Yes, Jesus Christ is the final and ultimate authority. Yes, I am imperfect. I am nothing. Jesus is everything, and I trust His word fully and completely and over-and-above the words of man.
John, since you recognize Jesus Christ as your ultimate authority, then consider this: Todd Bentley has claimed mutiple “visitations” with “Jesus Christ”
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwBrB8cCOk ). Bentley’s visit with “Jesus” begins at 2:41 into the video.
But Jesus, Himself, clearly said:
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him” (Matthew 24:23).
“So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them” (Matthew 24:26).
“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen” (Revelation 1:7).
Now, John, who is your ultimate authority? Todd Bentley or Jesus Christ?
If you say, Jesus Christ, then repent and separate completely from Todd Bentley and everyone associated with him and the revival.
In Christian love,
Bud
July 2, 2008 at 3:04 pm
John Burton
This is a great example of a disagreement on a non-absolute of scripture. Jesus has visited many people, not only Todd Bentley.
We see this in scripture as well. For example, the fourth man in the fire in Daniel 3.
This passage in Matt 24 is talking about the return of Jesus. It’s a warning against following actual men who would claim to be the Christ. Jesus will return in a specific way.
It’s not talking about encounters. There have been many stories of people going to heaven (and hell!) and encountering Jesus. I just came from a meeting where two people had such an experience. It was pure, and powerful.
The Word of God was affirmed, not violated.
But, again- we can have differing ideas here. To divide over an issue like this would be in appropriate.
July 2, 2008 at 3:46 pm
John Burton
Allow me to clarify something- in Matthew 24 we do see an absolute of scripture- we must follow Jesus only.
It would have been more accurate to say that the core of that scripture is agreed upon- absolutely we must follow only Jesus. We have to be aware and cannot follow impostors.
However, the point of disagreement is the focus of the scripture. That scripture doesn’t say that we will never encounter the true Jesus prior to the 2nd coming, but it does tell us what the 2nd coming will look like. We can’t allow our hearts to be stolen away by another man who claims to be the Christ but in reality is not.
July 2, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Lee
John,
I do want to respond to your earlier post; but, I think it best to respond to your latest one @ 3:04 first.
It’s not even just the fact that Bentley claims he has visitations from Jesus as Bud mentions above. To me, it’s that his visitations have different Jesus’ without different color and different type of hair among other differing physical attributes. Once again, Miriam does a great job on her site of showing Bentley’s differing accounts.
I hope we can agree on the 1 John scripture that is cited in the post. There is no doubt in my mind that the anointing the apostle John is referring to is the indwelling Holy Spirit. Do we agree on that?
Going to Matthew 24 at the beginning the disciples asked Jesus about the signs of the His 2nd coming to which Jesus replies:
4″Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many…” [Matthew 24:4-5 NIV]
Note first Jesus instructs us to not be deceived. Then He says “many” will claim “I am the Christ.” Have there really been “many” who have claimed to be the Christ, the Messiah? Not really.
Looking at the Strong’s definition for the word “Christ:”
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=5547
– Christ = “anointed”
defined as:
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed
Now, if we read the above passage and insert “anointed” in place of “Christ” this makes more sense with all those who are claiming an anointing: Benny Hinn, Morris Cerullo, William Branham, Todd Bentley, etc. Could it not be these in whom Jesus is speaking? I think so.
This coincides with the 1 John passage above which contrasts with the real anointing — the indwelling Holy Spirit — with a counterfeit. So, what is this ‘counterfeit?’ I believe it’s those I’ve mentioned in the above paragraph and others.
The 1 John passage is talking about an or even THE antichrist. Is not declaring oneself equal with Christ reducing his Divinity down to the level of man? Our God is Triune — one God in three — not one God in many!
July 2, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Lee
John,
You wrote:
…(remember, the Bereans we’re ‘more noble’ not because they studied the scriptures alone, but because they did so eagerly! They wanted this fresh move of God! They weren’t suspicious, but expectant!)…
Acts 17:11 [NIV] reads:
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
They didn’t ‘want this fresh move of God’ at the expense of Truth, they looked at Paul’s teaching and measured it against the Truth. It passed. Bentley fails. Banov’s prophecy fails as it is blatantly blasphemous. And Bentley lets it slide.
As I continue to read your first paragraph you apparently think that the interpretation of scripture is wrong. Which scripture are you referring to and just where is it wrong?
July 2, 2008 at 4:02 pm
John Burton
For someone to pray for God’s anointing to rest on someone is not blasphemy. Is that what you are saying?
July 2, 2008 at 4:07 pm
John Burton
Lee, “in your opinion, Bentley’s fails”. Do you not value others opinions? Do you believe you can be wrong on this?
This is what I meant when I referred to a wrong interpretation of scripture. We simply have to understand that God loving humans will have differing scriptural viewpoints.
We agree on the absolutes, but humbly admit that others insights are valuable and valid even if we might disagree.
To assume to be the one person with the final insight on a particular non-absolute of scripture is simply not good.
How do you handle it when other Christians disagree with you?
July 2, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Lee
For someone to pray for God’s anointing to rest on someone is not blasphemy. Is that what you are saying?
Banov claims that God told him that there are 2 anointings God wanted to give Bentley. These “anointings” came in the form of Messianic prophetic scriptures. Doesn’t this sound odd — or more to the point blasphemous — to you? What I mean is that it is OBVIOUS that God did not tell these things to Banov as God would be calling Bentley ‘Jesus.’ Do you really believe Banov when he says these things?
And, then to claim that God, the Father told Banov that Bentley is a “well pleasing son.” We know full well that those words were given by God the Father to Jesus His Son after John the Baptist’s baptism. Are you OK with Banov claiming all THIS?
July 2, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Lee
We can go round and round with this; but, I’m going to ask you to answer the questions @ 4:12 which are directly related to the post.
July 2, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Kim
Yes, i am interested in hearing the answer to these questions.
July 2, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Layla
“This is what I meant when I referred to a wrong interpretation of scripture. We simply have to understand that God loving humans will have differing scriptural viewpoints.”
Gee, I’m sorry but this statement and I know you believe in the absolutes of scripture so I am not saying that you are saying this, but then, if I take the last part of your statement here I might as well accept what Oprah and others say as a viewpoint that, “there are many ways to God other than Jesus ” or be more accepting of the Mormon or Jehovah Witness Doctrine.
Many times when I read the scriptures I 1st read it and try and put myself in the very shoes of the writer and interpret it as if I was there. What did the writer, the Holy Spirit mean then, there, at the time and does that allow for any other interpretation that is subjective? I think we try and put way more into it than is allowed and when we do so we take it totally out of what was written, add our own flavor too it and then we come up with angel Emma’s, prophecy likening ourselves to Jesus and putting ourselves at the same level… that is vain-imagination. No I am afraid that the things that are coming out of Lakeland as biblical are in error, based on Latter Rain, error, based on gnostisim, error!!! And one major pentecostal denomination has stood up, calling it heresy in 1948 and still claims it as so now.
I am talking now of the teachings not the man. It is not my place to judge the man, but I ahve every right to question the teachings.
July 2, 2008 at 5:38 pm
John Burton
You are reaching. For God to tell someone he’s a well pleasing son? That’s wonderful!
There is such danger in picking apart comments like you are doing. It’s so hard to have the full picture from a distance. That’s why people like Peter Wagner (who’s a thousand times the theologian that you or I are) are there with him. If something is said that’s off the mark, then there will be due process.
But, again- there is often disagreement on many biblical issues, right? Not the absolutes… but there is so much more that theologians, commentators, pastors, teachers, etc. simply disagree on. Right?
July 2, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Kim
C. Peter Wagner? From Fuller Seminary? The one who creates his own theology? (excuse me for stifling a snicker….) give due process if something is said that is off the mark?
July 2, 2008 at 7:05 pm
John Burton
Kim, do you ever have anything nice to say about people you disagree with? I’m sure you are a nice person… but, man, God loves Todd and Peter and you and me so very, very much. He burns will zealous love for us. I just wish there wasn’t such a negative feel here.
If we would intercede for people instead of attacking them, we would be so much further down the road.
July 2, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Lee
John,
I’ve just returned from a class; but, I see you’ve still not dealt with the most substantial part of the post and that is Banov’s applying Messianic prophetic scripture to Bentley which he claims was a ‘word’ from God. I would really like your view on this. Do you believe I misquoted the scripture in the original post?
July 2, 2008 at 7:11 pm
John Burton
Regarding due process- we let the local body, the local leadership take their rightful place in the situation. Outsiders don’t have enough information or the back and forth dialogue to assist in the matter.
Plus, ONCE AGAIN, Todd Bentley or Peter Wagner has not ever willingly violated an absolute of scripture that I know of. If they have, then we can certainly send a letter to them or their leadership, and then leave the situation alone.
And, remember, always share humbly that you may be wrong. Your interpretation of the matter may be wrong. You respect their position, even if it’s contrary to your human interpretation of a non-absolute of scripture.
Don’t butcher them publicly and them him hurt and attacked. Rather, pray for them, speak well of them, love them and lift them up.
Beyond that, it’s not your battle to fight.
July 2, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Kim
But you are right…. i need to pray for C. Peter Wagner and all who are searching for the Truth.
July 2, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Sam
John Burton,
This justification by Bill Johnson is ridiculous. Let me frame it for you in a different context.
Crack is great. It soothes pain. It’s not for everyone, because some have differing views of its impact. But before you judge it, ask yourself the following questions:
Have you tried crack?
Have you felt its incredible high?
Have you spent time with crack addicts?
Have you looked into the benefits of a good, solid relationship with your local crack dealer?
Have you met the dealer’s wife?
Have you looked into the benefits as well as the disadvantages of regular crack use?
No? Then don’t judge it, hypocrite.
Nice try buddy.
July 2, 2008 at 8:27 pm
thenonconformer
It is very clear that the much too many false Chritics of the pentecostals will try to grasp at any straws to falsey bash the pentecostal and still try to justify their immoral acts..
Any Christian being plagued with critics, opponents, unsubstantiated personal attacks too now, is really nothing new even to the past apostles, prophets , Jesus Christ himself who have face many similar bullies, groups etc., the devil is too ready an accuser of the Brethren, and tries to continually discredit any work of God even since the time of Jesus Christ himself now too even using inapplicable and distorted Biblical reasons and Bible verses now too
I also would not take any criticism even seriously by persons who admittedly even admit they are opposed to all charismatic’s gifts, speaking in tongues included, and the persons who do not acknowledge even themselves now having never received a clear, specific baptism of the Holy Spirit firstly, and also especially when also they themselves have not attended these meetings, or the meetings any of of the latter rain churches..
A MAJORITY OF THE CRITICS OF THE LATTER DAY REVIVALS, are too clearly their often diverting back wrongfully the topic discussions, making often personal insulting, unacceptable derogatory remarks is even THEIR typical unChristlike bulling Reponses, self righteous, a superiority attitude, and what else? is not the right approach from anyone and it does continue to reflect poorly on ALL OF THEM STILL too…
THE WAY THEY THEMSELVES DO UNDENIABLY POINT FINGERS AT THEIR SELF DEFINED OPPONENTS, IN A JUDGMENTAL MANNER, UNLOVING, UNKIND, UNJUSTIFIABLE MANNER IS CLEARLY THE MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE NOW TOO. And very revealing what they are firstly like themselves
July 2, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Kim
Actually i believe many of those who comment here have been part of the charismatic movement and have found their way out. The LatterRain movement was rejected by the AoG Pentecostals in 1948 as heretical.
July 2, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Lee
thenon,
If you are alleging this post to be a false critique then I implore you to show me just where it is false. …what immoral acts are you referring to?
…even using inapplicable and distorted Biblical reasons and Bible verses now too
Please show me where scripture is taken out of context in the original post.
Look at the irony:
In Jesus’ day when He proclaimed His Divinity by using the words “I AM” the Pharisees wanted to stone Him. Now, when Banov in essence proclaims Bentley to be ‘I AM’ by saying ‘God told me to tell you…’ and then quotes two Messianic prophetic scriptures applying them to Bentley, the pro-Bentley camp wants to figuratively ‘stone’ those who speak out against this blasphemy by defending them — yet we are the ones who are referred to as having a ‘Pharisaical spirit,’ ‘religious spirit’ or ‘critical spirit.’
Who here has said they are against the charismata? I believe in the gifts exercised as He gives them — decently and in order. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is a play toy as Bentley does as evidenced by his quote on his ‘Joel’s Army’ school tab on his site:
From time to time Todd will have weekly associate ministries and friends blast you in the Holy Ghost
July 2, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Lee
Kim,
Thanks, I meant to post about the AoG denouncing Latter Rain as heretical in 1948. And, again, just a month or so ago, we have Dr. George Wood outlining what a real revival looks like.
https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/a-lukewarm-ag-response-on-revival-living-in-the-way-responds/
Lakeland does not fit the bill. Not even close.
Here’s a non-Latter Rain revival:
https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/the-asbury-revival-the-great-experiment/
July 2, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Lee
You are reaching. For God to tell someone he’s a well pleasing son? That’s wonderful!
John,
Once again, you choose not to directly answer.
There is such danger in picking apart comments like you are doing.
Yet this is exactly what you are doing. So that we both don’t have to go scroll back up, I’m going to restate my earlier post right here:
Banov claims that God told him that there are 2 anointings God wanted to give Bentley. These “anointings” came in the form of Messianic prophetic scriptures. Doesn’t this sound odd — or more to the point blasphemous — to you? What I mean is that it is OBVIOUS that God did not tell these things to Banov as God would be calling Bentley ‘Jesus.’ Do you really believe Banov when he says these things?
And, then to claim that God, the Father told Banov that Bentley is a “well pleasing son.” We know full well that those words were given by God the Father to Jesus His Son after John the Baptist’s baptism. Are you OK with Banov claiming all THIS?
In saying ‘all THIS’ above I’m referring to the whole of the two above paragraphs. I would really like a response to this.
July 2, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Sam
Thenonconformer,
Got any examples there or are you just ranting?
For the record, I believe in Charismatic gifts and vehemently oppose these latter rain revivals. You’ve simply dismissed any opposition to this heresy as unloving and unkind by using blanket statements like:
“I also would not take any criticism even seriously by persons who admittedly even admit they are opposed to all charismatic’s gifts, speaking in tongues included, and the persons who do not acknowledge even themselves now having never received a clear, specific baptism of the Holy Spirit firstly…”
Who are those persons you’re speaking about?
So we need to do a background check before any discussion takes place? Good on you. Well I get all the ticks in the box and I still oppose it.
And then we have gems like this one:
“and also especially when also they themselves have not attended these meetings, or the meetings any of of the latter rain churches…”
See my response to John Burton @ 7:53 to show how ridiculous this reasoning is.
Then you have a whine about the attitude of those who are criticising by saying this:
“…making often personal insulting, unacceptable derogatory remarks is even THEIR typical unChristlike bulling Reponses, self righteous, a superiority attitude…”
You seem to be using your enemy’s weapons against them. These are not personal attacks that Lee and others are making! They are justified criticisms of heretical doctrines! There’s a big difference.
July 2, 2008 at 9:47 pm
thenonconformer
I have read in the last month every wordpress site, and many others sites openly bashing, abusing, slandering the Florida revival, Todd, the latter day Pentecostals and yet to date I personally have not read, seen one valid criticism, decent presentation at all.. what a great shocker.. It all seems more like little immature, jealous kids still fighting over which one of them will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and who will be last.. what a real absurdity.
Don’t get desperate but get real… like I have rightfully said I also would not take any criticism even seriously by persons who admittedly even admit they are opposed to all charismatic’s gifts, speaking in tongues included, and the persons who do not acknowledge even themselves now having never received a clear, specific baptism of the Holy Spirit firstly, and also especially when also they themselves have not attended these meetings, or the meetings of any of the latter rain churches..
I did not say Charismatic supposedly churches.. cause we know those often mean rather the Catholic Pentecostals..
as to what the Bible says is only how you here do interpret it.. not the Holy Spirit.
I have been a Christian for 50 years and a Pentecostal pastor for the last 30 years, and I have attended the latter day churches too and often.. and specifically what about you? not the supposed others..
The Latter Rain movement was rejected by the AoG Pentecostals in 1948 as heretical… and they are speaking for God now.. dream on.. There are other pentacostal denominations who support them, approve of them, me included.
The full Gospel Business Men’s fellowship uses a similar approach for decades now too.
many persons bashing other Pentecostals with clearly a hidden agenda is still the wrong thing to do now too.. they are not doing it in love or humility Cleary as required by the Bible now too.
http://pbulow.tripod.com/
http://groups.msn.com/AFOLLOWEROFCHRIST
http://postedat.wordpress.com/
July 2, 2008 at 9:59 pm
thenonconformer
“are you ranting”… my how you like to bash, insult people.. you do not know to even try to judge them, quite immature and unspiritual too.. looking for a big fight cause someone had stepped on your sore toes.. I certainly hope you do not profess wrongfully to be a Christian to anyone, cause you do not act like it for sure… nor do I hope you abuse all the people like that who make a post here.. a sure way to next lose many people still too. Stay in God’s love and not rather in the flesh.. we may not agree, do have a right to differ, but we still do need to show love to the others.
Need more input from me on the subjects.. I have it detailed even on 5 internet sites..
including
http://postedat.wordpress.com
http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/
July 2, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Lee
thenon,
I have read in the last month every wordpress site, and many others sites openly bashing, abusing, slandering the Florida revival, Todd, the latter day Pentecostals and yet to date I personally have not read, seen one valid criticism, decent presentation at all..
Well, gosh, I’ve seen you posting on other sites; and, I must say I’ve never seen you clearly refute any of the posts as I recall. Tell me, what is scripturally wrong with this post?
July 2, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Tim H
I certainly would like an answer from both “thenon” and “John” on the question of the post also.
Thenon, thanks for the credentials, I’ve been a Christian for 40+ years and 99% of that time as Pentecostal, member of A/G, Open Bible, and Foursquare and I still think Latter Rain is incorrect interpretation of the scriptures. So we both believe in all of the gifts. How do we reconcile our differences?
You two have totally avoided answering it.
Here I’ll post it again for Lee,
So that we both don’t have to go scroll back up, I’m going to restate my earlier post right here:
Banov claims that God told him that there are 2 anointings God wanted to give Bentley. These “anointings” came in the form of Messianic prophetic scriptures. Doesn’t this sound odd — or more to the point blasphemous — to you? What I mean is that it is OBVIOUS that God did not tell these things to Banov as God would be calling Bentley ‘Jesus.’ Do you really believe Banov when he says these things?
And, then to claim that God, the Father told Banov that Bentley is a “well pleasing son.” We know full well that those words were given by God the Father to Jesus His Son after John the Baptist’s baptism. Are you OK with Banov claiming all THIS?
In saying ‘all THIS’ above I’m referring to the whole of the two above paragraphs. I would really like a response to this.
Todd Bently has just been giev a prophetic word…”GOD SAID…” and then likens him to Christ.
You must agree with this status or “anointing” for Todd. Maybe I should ask the question in this way…
How do you interpret the “prophetic word” given over Todd that George Banov gave?
July 2, 2008 at 10:36 pm
cheryl U.
thenonconformer,
I am sorry sir, but I wish you could hear yourself as others hear you. You are always coming down hard on others, really hard, because they are trying to point out error. You accuse others of being self righteous and having a superior attitude. But in all honestly, you come across as probably the most self righteous and superior person I have ever come across. (And I have read your comments elsewhere too.) There is an old saying, “Physican heal thyself…”
July 2, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Bud Press
John Burton:
In Jesus’ response to His disciples in Matthew chapter 24, when it comes to “visions” and “visitations” with “Jesus,” Jesus covered all the bases and left no stone unturned in one Scripture alone:
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him” (Matthew 24:23).
Thus, when someone claims to see “Jesus” in a vision or in a one-on-one encounter, they are calling Jesus Christ a liar.
But despite Jesus’ words, and despite the fact that He sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven, people continue to claim one-on-one visititations with “Jesus” (Mark 16:19; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 12:2),
Where is Jesus?
“And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven'” (Acts 1:9-11).
What Todd Bentley fails to understand is that when Jesus returns it will be His second coming–not in a vision or random visitation:
“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen” (Revelation 1:7).
“So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you” (Revelation 3:3).
Frankly, one reason why people claim to see “Jesus” is because they aren’t satisfied with what God has said in His word, nor do they trust God’s word over-and-above the words of man. Another reason is that they have been severly misled and deceived by the false teachers of our day.
John, in your above post, you clearly stated that “the ultimate authority is Jesus, of course.” If this is true, repent and renounce all ties with Todd Bentley, and everyone and everything associated with Him and the revival.
Todd Bentley is a savage wolf in sheep’s clothing and a false apostle, who is being led by a counterfeit “Jesus” and “spirit” (Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 and 13-15).
Your spiritual and eternal welfare rests on your decision, and I love you enough to tell you the truth.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud
July 2, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Sam
Thenonconformer,
“my how you like to bash, insult people..”
“…looking for a big fight cause someone had stepped on your sore toes.. I certainly hope you do not profess wrongfully to be a Christian to anyone…”
I guess I won’t even bother responding to this comment, your own words reveal your hypocritical heart. I never questioned your salvation, I questioned your motives in saying what you were saying.
Anyway, I have a question for you.
What am I missing out on by not falling into line with the latter rain heresy? Salvation? “The next wave?” Becoming a “manifest Son of God” (i.e. Jesus)? Why should I conform as you have (contrary to your name) to this heretical doctrine?
July 3, 2008 at 3:35 am
thenonconformer
Tell me what is even scriiptural right about this one sided, buullying, bashing, lying, agargumentative, ungoldy, unchristlike posts clearly not done in love too.. hope you still do not profess to be a Christian, cause you give a realy bad aimage to the real Christians.
>>What am I missing out on by not falling into line with the latter rain heresy? Salvation? “The next wave?” Becoming a “manifest Son of God” (i.e. Jesus)? Why should I conform as you have (contrary to your name) to this heretical doctrine?
you lie and distort often what i have said still too.. I never asked you to fall in line, I had asked you to act like real Christians, and show real love, not mostly hatred rather..
July 3, 2008 at 3:37 am
thenonconformer
Like i have said When you talk about what the scriptures says you honestly should also point out that you mean it is how you now interpret what the scripture says.. cause too many of us read different things out of the same scriptures as we all do know firstly..
The people who also tell us to use only the Bible often still lie further to us.. they ask us also to use men’s commentaries, instead of the Holy spirit to next interpret the Bible.
(Eph 4:18 KJV) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
I tend to look at both sides of the issues myself.. for that matter I have now been both non Christian, and Christian, both Baptist and Pentecostal, and both groups still do have major errors, weakness, inadequacies, and they now also have some good points too.. but still there is no such thing as a perfect denomination now as well
But one other thing often is clearly is evident to me visiting, reading the many so called Professing Christians sites mostly all telling us the supposed truth, postings often more with dishonest hidden agendas, poorly researched too, very biased now too.. It also seems to me they are also still are trying to convince themselves as to what is the truth is and no one else, they build up their own false straw arguments, and then do reply to their own arguments. It is generally too often now not an honest presentation, discussion of the topic they have presented.
Why is it so many people try too limit the power of God, and they work so hard to try to tell us what God can and cannot do today.. for sure, definitely it is not only cause they are spiritually immature, have a hidden agenda, are promoting themselves, or they are unoriginal parrots who repeat what others have said , but it is often still mainly because Satan for sure is behind all this too.
Is 45:5 I am the Lord, and there is no one else; there is no God besides Me. I will gird {and} arm you, though you have not known Me,
(Jer 32:27 KJV) Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Aside from that fact many do not know, read , they do not understand the scriptures, the Bible in reality but merely mouth what they think or what others have said instead..
Latter rain is a term referring to the new outpouring of the Holy Spirit on today’s Pentecostals. The events of Pentecost are known as the former rain.
The idea of latter rain comes from this Old Testament text, which precedes Joel’s prophecy that God will pour out his Spirit on all people:
Be glad, O people of Zion,
rejoice in the LORD your God,
for he has given you
the autumn rains in righteousness.
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.
Joel 2:23
The early Pentecostals connect their own experience of the Spirit with that of the disciples, and Peter’s quoting of Joel’s prophecy in Acts 2: 16-21 is a further prophecy that God would pour out his Spirit again at a later time.
They tend to state that the pouring out of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost as the early autumn rain, and the second pouring out of the Spirit, that they were experiencing, as the later spring rains; the Latter Rain.
The idea of latter rain is found throughout many denominations of Pentecostalism, but specifically the Latter Rain Movement, founded in 1948, teaches that the second coming of Jesus is due to happen soon and that latter rain is evidence for this.
I have read in the last month every wordpress site, and many others sites openly bashing, abusing, slandering the Florida revival, Todd, the latter day Pentecostals and yet to date I personally have not read, seen one valid criticism, decent presentation at all.. what a great shocker.. It all seems more like little immature, jealous kids still fighting over which one of them will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and who will be last.. what a real absurdity.
Don’t get desperate but get real… like I have rightfully said I also would not take any criticism even seriously by persons who admittedly even admit they are opposed to all charismatic’s gifts, speaking in tongues included, and the persons who do not acknowledge even themselves now having never received a clear, specific baptism of the Holy Spirit firstly, and also especially when also they themselves have not attended these meetings, or the meetings of any of the latter rain churches..
I did not say Charismatic supposedly churches.. cause we know those often mean rather the Catholic Pentecostals..
as to what the Bible says is only how you here do interpret it.. not the Holy Spirit.
I have been a Christian for 50 years and a Pentecostal pastor for the last 30 years, and I have attended the latter day churches too and often.. and specifically what about you? not the supposed others..
The Latter Rain movement was rejected by the AoG Pentecostals in 1948 as heretical… and they are speaking for God now.. dream on.. There are other pentacostal denominations who support them, approve of them, me included.
The full Gospel Business Men’s fellowship uses a similar approach for decades now too.
many persons bashing other Pentecostals with clearly a hidden agenda is still the wrong thing to do now too.. they are not doing it in love or humility Cleary as required by the Bible now too.
“are you ranting”… my how you like to bash, insult people.. you do not know to even try to judge them, quite immature and unspiritual too.. looking for a big fight cause someone had stepped on your sore toes.. I certainly hope you do not profess wrongfully to be a Christian to anyone, cause you do not act like it for sure… nor do I hope you abuse all the people like that who make a post here.. a sure way to next lose many people still too. Stay in God’s love and not rather in the flesh.. we may not agree, do have a right to differ, but we still do need to show love to the others.
Need more input from me on the subjects.. I have it detailed even on 5 internet sites..
including
http://postedat.wordpress.com
http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/
Some people would say I too have never seen alcohol do one good thing for anyone rather mostly a lot of evil.. . and do look at things associated with alcohol…bars, strip clubs, drunks, DUI’s, addiction and the like. Tell me who your friends are and I can always tell what you are like too. These are not activities a true Christian should participate in. Therefore, it is better to SHUN even an appearance of evil. And yes Christians are commanded that our bodies are not to be mastered by anything…our bodies are the temple of God. We are always to be in self control. not rather selfish oriented. Also, the wine Jesus and the apostle used, wine was likely not fermented in biblical times as it is today, it was rather grape juice, and was unlikely to cause drunkenness as easily. Falsely for too many professing Christians Smoking, Homosexuality is okay, drinking alcohol is okay, using profanity is okay, tax evasion is OK, Cheating, lying, stealing is OK.. Get a real life. Get Jesus It does sounds like many always rejected the truth of the Bible, Jesus and have finally found a denomination that supports their sin. The Gospel according to them. Lucky them? Not at all. They also tend to show the mental sloppiness, dishonesty common to the liberals, bashers of Pentecostals and fundamentalists, not those elf real Christians for sure.
A preacher had recently written to me and said to me that we all should get more of the Word into us, meaning the Bible, but what we all do need is more of the Holy Spirit, starting with His fruit of love, for I also now could not help but notice how unkind, proud, arrogant this preacher still was himself.. too many preachers now know the Word but they seem too easily forget to also live it themselves firstly, and I rightfully would rather see a sermon practiced, then merely hear it lip service preached too. Much too easier to preach it to others, harder to live it onself..
(Neh 8:10 KJV) Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.
Do see also
http://pbulow.tripod.com/
http://groups.msn.com/AFOLLOWEROFCHRIST
http://postedat.wordpress.com/
July 3, 2008 at 5:22 am
Lee
thenon,
Well, you proved my point. You really cannot scripturally or factually find fault with the original post. Clearly Banov did not hear from God but rather he heard from another god or his own vain imaginings. God is not a man that He would lie.
While I didn’t point this out in the original post, it is quite obvious that even IF these were not Messianic verses, God would never have said in referring to Bentley that he ‘loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity’ or ‘hated iniquity.’ Bentley is a proven unrepentant liar. He has removed from his website some of his questionable teachings and his account of the angel Emma with no explanation whatsoever. Of course, this was only after all the negative publicity.
July 3, 2008 at 5:49 am
Sam
Thenonconformer,
I don’t hate you, where’d you get that from? Because I asked if you were ranting? I’m sorry if you found that offensive – I don’t know what else to say. Generally people who make vague, ambiguous statements without any substantiation can fairly be called ranters. Rather than taking it on the chin though, twice you question whether I am a Christian?
Fact: you haven’t answered one of the questions asked of you on this thread. All you’ve done is criticised others [heavily] for criticising.
Listen mate, I don’t know you from a bar of soap. I didn’t say you’ve told me to fall in line. However, because of your lamentations over everyone calling the latter rain heresy what it is – heresy – I was wondering what you think I am missing out on by not being a part of it [any more. For your information I have moved away from this cultish fringe belief].
If you don’t answer questions, whatever. I was just wondering what, exactly, the point of your comments were then.
July 3, 2008 at 7:57 am
cheryl U.
Bud Press,
I have a question for you re the Matthew Scripture about seeing Jesus. I have always interpreted that to mean people claiming a literal, bodily Jesus here on this earth, not to visions of Jesus etc. The reason for my belief is that Stephen, John, and Paul all saw Jesus in one way or another after the resurrection. So how can we discount the possibility of possible visions of Him now?
July 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
mbaker
I see there is some objection to calling Latter Rain a heresy, as well as Banov’s comments to Bentley. In particular, here is one comment I’d like to address:
“It is very clear that the much too many false Chritics of the pentecostals will try to grasp at any straws to falsey bash the pentecostal and still try to justify their immoral acts..”
I would like to point out that it was the Assembly of God, a pentecostal denomination, who believes in the practice of all the spiritual gifts, who officially declared that Latter Rain was heretical.
Regarding the allegations of bullying etc;, identifying false theology is a biblical mandate for all of us. We are told to be Bereans, not roll over and play dead to false teaching.
I am personally a continuationist, who left the charismatic fringe for just the reasons Lee stated above. I almost lost my faith in God when I realized how cruelly I had been deceived by so many false prophecies and other teachings, simply because I trusted that everything men of God said was automatically true. It was devastating when I realized there were so many wolves in sheep’s clothing in the church, looking to make a reputation for themselves, and caring nothing for the welfare of their flocks – except of course for the money they provided. I remember the nasty names I was called and how I was shunned when I chose to leave a home group of Christians who would not take correction from anyone, including their own pastors, when they got so far afield of the teachings of the Bible.
Those are the kinds of things, in my mind at least, that constitute real spiritual bullying, not bringing out deceptive practices which could potentially seriously mislead or harm the faith of others within the church.
Funny, that some Christians often have no problem in complaining about a business with deceptive practices. Indeed, they demand something be done be about it, but these same folks can get angry and accusatory themselves when others naturally expect them to practice the same truth within the church.
July 3, 2008 at 9:23 am
Tim H
Lee,
I was just thinking, with the doctrinal beliefs of Latter Rain (found an interesting article here http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=116) they would not see anything wrong with that particular “prophetic word”. After all, this is part of the Manifested Sons of God issue. Apologteics Research Resource states; “The Manifested Sons of God teachings are perhaps the most definitive among Kingdom Now doctrines. They have all the elements of classical dominion theory: immortalization, restoration of the offices of apostles and prophets, absolute authoritarianism, attainment of godhood – you name it, the Manifested Sons of God have it. “
So neither one of these gentlemen, John aor Noncon will address this issue.
July 3, 2008 at 9:24 am
cheryl U.
mbaker,
Hi!
I doubt your comment above about the AoG declaring Latter Rain
a heresy will have much affect. Someone else further up the thread already pointed that out and basically that fact was laughed at as inconsequential.
July 3, 2008 at 9:35 am
Lee
TimH,
I’m hoping someone will actually take issue with a specific part of this post so that we can have a REAL debate. If it were me on the other end who espoused MSoG teachings and believed Banov’s words were from God, I would come here and defend that position while refuting this one.
That’s what I just don’t understand. There are vague comments but never anything specific.