By Kim Olsen
Am I in God’s will? Am I doing the right thing? Lord, what job shall I take? Does God even hear me? How can I hear from God to get the answers I need?
Common questions. I hear them all the time and have asked the very same questions over and over again. It is human nature to want to know the future. What a comfort it would be to know everything on a day to day basis. Or would it?
In the Old Testament, the Israelites followed the cloud, the Lord, in the desert. Now here they knew that they were following God. In fact they were led for every moment. But picture this scenario…..
A family is settled in because the cloud has stopped moving. They unpack. Set up the tent. Make a fire pit. Put away all their belongings. But wait….the cloud has started moving again….hey, everybody….start packing. Let’s go..go! What questions might the Israelites had asked….
Where are we going? How long will we travel before we stop again? Why do we stay in one location for three days then the next for three months? Will we stop somewhere that has shade? When we do stop, how long will we stay at that destination? Where will our water come from? Should I continue to follow this cloud that does not seem to be taking us anywhere? Where is this promised land? How long till we get there? I see the cloud but is God really in it? Where is Moses when you need him?
It is not indicated in scripture that the Israelites were given any answers to these questions. They were to just follow the cloud when it moved.
At Bible study we were asked, “Is this really how you want to be led by God?”. It gives us pause to remember the freedom we have in Christ. Even though the Israelites were visibly directed by God, they rebelled and complained saying more than once that they thought they were better off back in Egypt. Did they forget that they were slaves there? In fact they wanted to replace Moses. “Let us make a captain, and let us return to Egypt.” Numbers 14:3. So, it seems that even those directly led by God, rebel.
We were given a mind to make our own decisions. In fact when we look at scripture there is no indication that the general believing population, after reaching Canaan, was given any special direction at all. They just served the Lord in everyday situations, just like we are to today.
Sure, it would be nice to know if we should take a certain job or move to a new city, but we are not entitled to any special revelation from God. He may give us a peace about a decision, check our spirit, or provide providentially, but we are to be wise and make the best decisions possible based on how we are to live our lives based on scripture.
Once we begin to seek hidden knowledge, or wait for a voice boom from above, we get ourselves into trouble of waiting on extra-biblical aid. I do believe there are times when God intervenes supernaturally. Yes, indeed I do. And I also believe that God can and will lead with that small still voice. But this is not the normal way God speaks daily to us or works in our lives. He speaks to us through His written Word.
So, how do you know God and His will? Genesis to Revelation. There is no easy answer here but one has to start walking with Jesus because He is the Word. He is the Way.
If you are truly hungering for God, then you will hunger for the Word because it is through study and prayer that God will reveal Himself to you. I wish there were shortcuts, but it just isn’t so.
1 John 5:3 says “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,”
To know God is to study His Word. Set aside time each day to read scripture. After you pray, open your Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you in all His ways.
We know from John 1:1 that the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And Jesus is God in the flesh. But the Word or the manna was not enough for the Israelites. They rejected the manna and wanted meat. It was in this way that they rejected God. This of course angered God. “The Lord became exceedingly angry”. Numbers 11:10.
The people became just like the world, like the rabble, they craved more than what God was offering them freely and on a daily basis. Aren’t we just like the Israelites? We are no different. That is why this biblical account is available for us to read and study today.
Are you angering the Lord today by complaining that His Word is not enough? This gives new insight to the statement, “Be careful what you ask for!” The Lord gave the people what they wanted. It was meat they wanted so He sent quail, three feet deep. They were now wading in the very desire that would soon destroy them. They wanted more than what God offered, and so God sent a plague and killed those who “craved other food” besides the manna.
Open your Bible now…and hear the Word of our Lord, and then prayerfully walk in obedience.
(reposted)
DiscernIt 
68 comments
February 10, 2010 at 1:20 am
jennypo
I read this blog all the time, but I don’t usually comment. I just wanted to put in my “amen”, and thank you for sharing your discernment. I really appreciate your analyses and your refusal to let God be presented as a super-magician. I am coming to see that everything hinges on who God is, and who I let Him be to me.
February 10, 2010 at 3:03 am
Topics about Christian life and Bible readings » Archive » Are You Hearing From God?
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February 10, 2010 at 9:07 am
Kim
Hi jennypo,
Glad to meet you…I love how the Holy Spirit opens up our hearts and mind to His Word.
I like what you said “everything hinges on who God is.” This is a very important insight because today many are making up a God that they prefer. A loving God who does not judge, or a God who thinks a small sin can be overlooked. God’s attributes all throughout scripture define His character.
February 11, 2010 at 11:50 am
Bud Press
Kim, your words are an inspiration.
As you know, the Lord allowed my wife and I to encounter and survive the most emotionally painful situation we have ever encountered. Mere words cannot describe the hurt and sadness we endured over a dear family member who was being physically and emotionally abused.
Day after day, the pain and worry was so intense it drove us to our knees. We prayed many, many times a day, and literally cried out to God for His mercy and grace. And, slowly but surely, the Lord answered our prayers, gave us glimmers of hope, and filled our hearts with peace.
By His incredible grace, mercy, and forgiveness, the Lord answered all of our prayers, protected and rescued our family member, and restored our family.
The Lord is truly amazing. He answers prayer. He moves mountains. He intervenes and sets the captives free. It was a lesson my wife and I will never forget, and we give the Lord ALL of the glory and praise.
“This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him” (1 John 5:14-15).
To God be the glory!
God bless,
Bud
February 11, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Kim
Hi Bud…
I want to thank you for all the updates you gave on this situation and sharing your experience. It was very encouraging to finally hear that prayers were answered.
I have also learned that God allows hard circumstances into our lives, which indeed drives us to our knees in prayer. He loves us enough to test and strengthen us when we rely only on Him instead of ourselves.
February 16, 2010 at 7:15 am
Valerie Leone
Alert about Paul Washer
Busyness and Spiritual Discipline by Paul Washer
The posted video is 80 minutes long.
There are comments sprinkled throughout his sermon. Don’t get me wrong, Paul Washer is teaching Truth with only a few phrases of poison. At the very beginning of the message he speaks of silence and meditation (5:50) and cites a poem or something that refers to the sacred silence (6:53) The part were he talks about Practice the Presence is at (21:45) He uses the phrase “Practice the Presence” and refutes the idea that you can just pray as you go and don’t need a specific time set aside for prayer, but then he gives it heed by saying you must practice the presence in a time of stillness and solitude. He didn’t use those exact words, but that is the message. Please understand that these are just buzz words. I don’t say that Paul Washer is a heretic, just that this teaching is being woven into the teaching of those who are trusted and it is sad to recognize it for what it is. A little leaven intended by the enemy of our soul to leaven the whole lump.
February 16, 2010 at 9:09 am
Kim
Hi Valerie,
I have watched the most of video and especially the times you have listed.
I do not like some of the terminology like the “practice the presence” or “sacred silence” because it sounds like the contemplative camp.
However, he calling us to prayer and spending time alone with God. He is saying that we are so busy and noisy that we have no time for silence and to meditate on God. Meditating on His Word and praying is a good thing.
When I study and read the Bible, I close the door, no noise, and first pray for the Holy Spirit to teach me and then read carefully and reflect and yes meditate on what I am reading. I spend time alone with God in this way. I also “listen” not for a voice but for conviction, training, and understanding.
Another difference in what Paul is teaching that is different from the contemplatives is that we need to turn away from our own confidence in our flesh and ask for trial/suffering/affliction or whatever it takes that we would seek God.
I am with you though on the pray as you go aspect of our daily lives. Paul says that he doesn’t believe this but it is biblical because we are to pray constantly. I think though he was saying that this should not be our only way to pray. If we spend time alone with God, there is a sustaining presence of God because we have walked with him earlier in the day. He elaborates by saying,
“The presence of God is the greater reality to me in this pulpit right now than the presence of any one of you.”
I harp on reading and studying God’s Word, but I also believe we need to pray and spend time with God to know Him better. The Pharisees knew the scriptures up and down, but they did not know God at all. The disciples had a hard time understanding what Jesus was saying when He was teaching them He was about to go to the cross. Who did understand? Mary. She alone knew. She anointed His feet with the nard for his burial. And why did she understand when no one else did? It is because she was always found at the feet of Jesus. Spending time with Him while Martha was busy in the kitchen.
What a good job though carefully scrutinizing this video. You are a Berean indeed!
Other thoughts anyone? I have not watched the entire video yet.
February 21, 2010 at 8:23 am
Kim
Just a follow up the rest of the Paul Washe video. I found that the rest of video was excellent.
A few points –
Godliness should be our goal. Holiness.
To be used by God we should the characteristics of the sermon on the mount. Poor in spirit – meek – gentleness – hunger – peace and being persecuted for righteousness.
We need to repent – grow in repentance – be more sensitive to our sin.
Cry out to the Holy Spirit so that we can be a witness of the Gospel.
There is so much false teaching out there – sometimes we run too far in the other direction. we have to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
These are all great teachings. But let us also try all teachings against the Word of God even Paul Washer. For the Bereans tested the apostle Paul against scripture.
We do need to watch to make sure that Paul Washer does not endorse any contemplative practices of stilling the mind and going “within” to receive a false spirit. This can happen so easily. Just his using these phrases can mislead others into delving into mysticism.
Valerie’s caution is warranted.
February 25, 2010 at 10:29 pm
John Burton
I’d challenge this idea… I wrote a book titled “Revelation Driven Prayer” which is a call to live a supernatural life, to hear God continually.
The sheep will hear his voice. It’s tragic when we rely on logic and intellect ahead of God’s relational voice.
God is talking continually in our lives. In phenominal ways. I have story after story after story of God moving and speaking and working on a very regular basis.
For example, I was ministering in Detroit several months in a row when we were living in Kansas City. Major moves of God were impacting people and I started to feel very drawn to move here.
There was a lot of prophecy confirming what was in my heart… but, a bunch of the ‘common sense’ advice we received directed us to not move to Detroit.
After flying back and forth five or six times, my wife, who really didn’t want to move here, put out a fleece.
We lived in America’s eighth fasted dying city in the nation. The economy was crashing hard. My wife said this, “God, we acknowledge that you may be leading us to Detroit. We are going to put our house on the market tomorrow, and if you want us to move, sell the house within 7 days for full price.”
6 days later our house was sold for full price.
We have since moved to Detroit and launched a church. Without God’s prophetic revelation and activity in our lives, it never would have happened.
You can watch a video about this topic… an interview I had on The Miracle Channel… on my website at http://www.detroitrevivalchurch.com. It’s a show called The Bridge.
February 25, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Kim
Hey John,
It has been a long time.
There can be much danger in following a voice, when we have the written Word of God. There has been much damage to the church by those who listen to a false spirit. I know from personal experience and have talked with many others who have repented of divination.
Napolean HIll who wrote Think and Grow Rich had a spirit guide who told him how to become rich by visualization…It is occult and it works. Therefore it is dangerous and this new age practice has infiltrated the church.
I do believe that God does work in many ways, I also believe that many are deceived.
I do not rely on my intellect..that would be a sorry situation. But I do believe and rely on God’s Word.
II Timothy is one of my favorite epistles. 4:4 says “And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables.”
His Word, scripture is ALL we need. 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
You house may have sold anyway. There is no way to know.
February 25, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Kim
“We have since moved to Detroit and launched a church. Without God’s prophetic revelation and activity in our lives, it never would have happened.”
We too have launched a new church. We separated from the ELCA and God seemed to pave the way for us. In six weeks, we found a building, received seed money, and already have an active congregation. There was no prophetic revelation though, we just obeyed His Word.
February 25, 2010 at 11:14 pm
John Burton
The life of following a voice is honestly not that risky… God’s very good at communicating. If we simply refuse anything that contradicts scripture, we’re within bounds.
Also, when you start to connect the related prophecies together… it honestly becomes statistically impossible for the outcome to be a coincidence.
From my research, those who tend toward resisting the idea that God is actively communicating in a personal way with us are often in one of two camps:
1. They didn’t know how to connect like that. The spiritual realm was foreign and weird to them. They had no ability to hear God, in their opinion.
2. They are fear driven–fearful of being deceived, of not hearing God correctly.
For point one, which is the most prevalent, it simply takes a serious life of deep prayer, continually, interacting with God, praying in the Spirit, groans that can’t be uttered, etc. It’s a spiritual activity… when people do break through, dreams increase, visions increase, etc.
For point two, we should never be fearful. Fear moves us away from God, which makes it even more difficult to hear him.
Something again happened today…
A couple of weeks ago I received an email from a very trusted friend who had a major download for me… she said that I’d be receiving a large sum of money all at once.
Well, then just a couple of days ago, someone on my intercession team felt strongly that something was coming in the mail… favor, finances.
Then today, as I was getting ready for the day, I had a very unusual encounter with God… I felt his love for me in a way I never had. I felt so affirmed… and I was about to talk to him about finances… and, I just smiled and stopped… his love was so strong that I had full confirmation that a financial breakthrough was in the works.
Well, this morning we received a $2100 check in the mail from someone I’ve only met once. Totally out of the blue.
Then, this afternoon, we were shocked to see that we received over $3000 back in our taxes (we expected to pay this year). For all of this to happen on the same day… after such specific prophecies… is just no coincidence.
This is a cool story, but it’s not at all unusual… it’s God revealing his precise desires to us, us coming into agreement with him, declaring and decreeing and watching it happen. It happens all the time with us.
February 25, 2010 at 11:28 pm
Kim
Well, I fellowship with a group of women in our bible study group. We teach children and disciple women. We meet regularly, study and bible and pray on our knees during our meetings.
Your two points do not apply to us at all. We do hear from God, and we have no fear.
The believers I know that love their Bible never have fear and rarely speak of it. Only those who delve into the paranormal world, seem to have this fear.
I am glad that God gives you lots of money…I guess…
I am in a different place. I wish to give all that I have away….it seems to be a hindrance to me. I want my treasures to be in heaven. Money will rot and rust.
February 25, 2010 at 11:35 pm
John Burton
Well, we all need money, right? Nothing wrong with God supplying it in special ways from time to time.
You may want to read my book sometime. Living a prophetic life is quite thrilling… and I also talk about how not living a prophetic life can be quite deadly. It’s often a matter of life and death.
We simply must hear God so we can respond accordingly. People’s lives are at risk… there have been times that If I didn’t hear God in quite dramatic ways, people very easily could have gone to hell.
But that word in that moment changed history for God’s glory.
February 25, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Kim
Yes, I agree, but your comments have been mostly about money….
I think I downloaded one your books about 2-3 years ago….
I was thrilled at one time too…..till I discovered I had opened myself up. It was exciting, it was joyful, it was seducing. I thought I was “special”, that God was using me in special ways. But instead I was prideful.
But God tells us to wash each others feet, to lay down our lives for each other, that we will be persecuted for the Gospel, that the meek will inherit the earth, and the poor in spirit. And to walk in faith. This is what God commended the patriarchs in Hebrews 11.
John, I do believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. He enables great things in our lives. Many great things have happened to people I know. Healings, answerered prayer, but they don’t speak much of these things.
February 25, 2010 at 11:57 pm
John Burton
Pride is one issue that must be dealt with seriously. Scripturally we know that God intentionally resists, moves away from, those who are prideful.
If we ever find ourselves getting caught up in all of the miracles and stuff… in a way that leaves God out of it… where he isn’t glorified alone, then we’re in trouble.
I believe that we can live in such a way where we are people of great favor, where supernatural breakthrough is a regular occurrence, and where people are in awe of God because of it.
February 26, 2010 at 12:03 am
Kim
Yes, I agree with you there….
February 26, 2010 at 8:39 am
Kim
but…
The Bible warns that in the end days Satan will also perform many signs and wonders. Some who think that they are calling on the name of the Lord will not be.
Matthew 7:21 says but, “I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
The false prophets will come to us in sheeps clothing, which means they are in the church, and we can know the wolves from the sheep by their fruit.
John 15 explains the importance of Jesus being the vine, how He prunes us, and a condition……’If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love.”
The ultimate test of the fruit we produce, is…did it last??? Jesus promised eternal fruit to those who abide in Him. ” ..to go and bear fruit..fruit that will last.”
We are also warned that many will follow a false Jesus. One of man’s imagination. To avoid this delusion, we need to continually read the New Testament.
February 26, 2010 at 10:22 am
John Burton
Sure, that’s true… but I’ve watched a lot of people, churches, etc. minimize and underemphasis the spiritual and supernatural out of nervousness of falling into deception.
This is a tragic mistake. We cannot hope to discern primarily from a logical/intellectual position. The Bible tells us that spiritual things must be discerned spiritually.
The Bible also tells us in back-to-back verses not to despise prophecies and not to quench the Spirit. However, it’s becoming rare to find Christians and churches that embrace prophecy and Holy Spirit activity.
Matthew 7:21 isn’t mostly about falling into deception… it’s about intimacy. It’s about deeply and intimately knowing God. It’s having a form of godliness and now power.
We have to be very careful to avoid the temptation to simply know more ABOUT God… we must personally know God… interact with him, hear his heart, minister to him, etc.
Honestly, the fear of falling into deception is much to intense for some people… it’s not that complicated. If we ask for a fish, we’re not going to get a snake. God is very able to keep us, to protect us… if we stay humble, listen to him, judge prophecy by the Word, etc. we’ll be OK.
February 26, 2010 at 11:41 am
Craig Lee
John,
I find this very alarmng:
we must personally know God… interact with him, hear his heart, minister to him, etc.
minister to him? Please explain this one.
You also wrote:
Matthew 7:21 isn’t mostly about falling into deception… it’s about intimacy.
Au contraire John. Yes, of course, we need to know good in order to NOT fall into deception; but, it’s clear these verses are warning of falling into deception.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ [NIV]
I think the context is very plain. “Many” who do supernatural activity such as “prophesying,” “driving out demons,” “performing many miracles,” etc will be told “I never knew you.” These individuals THINK they know Jesus yet sadly do not. These people are deceived. Or, even worse, these individuals KNOW they’ve been deceiving others [7:15-20] and have the arrogance to believe they can outwit God.
Putting 7:15 through 7:27 in context:
Watch out for false prophets [v15]. You’ll know them by their “fruit” [vv 16-20]. What is “fruit?” This is answered later in vv24-27 [and John 15:1-12]. The “foundation on the Rock” — Jesus, the Word made flesh. “These words of Mine” [v24] is the referring to the entirety of the Sermon on the Mount; i.e., keeping His commandments [also see John 8:31-32] which, of course, we can only do by walking in the Spirit [Eph 5:18; Gal 5:22-25]
Only those who do “the will of My Father” will enter the Kingdom [also Matthew 12:46-50]. What is the “will of My Father?” — it’s to love and obey Jesus [John 8:31-32; John 14:20-22; 1st John 2:2-4; 1st John 3:21-24; 1st John 5:2-4; Daniel 9:4]. This is the “house on the Rock” [v24-25; Daniel 2:34; 2:45] which is contrasted with the “house” which “fell with a great crash” — the one NOT built on the Rock, Word.
February 26, 2010 at 11:48 am
Craig Lee
John,
You wrote:
…us coming into agreement with him, declaring and decreeing and watching it happen…
Obviously, you are referring to Word of Faith teachings with this statement. Show me in scripture where we are to “declare and decree” please. Is this what C. Peter Wagner — the one who you referred to being “ten times the theologian of you or I” in a comment on this very site — was doing at Bentley’s ordination in Lakeland?
February 26, 2010 at 11:59 am
John Burton
That verse actually is about intimacy… it’s not about knowing your doctrine primarily… it’s about knowing Jesus personally. He said, depart me I never knew you… to know God is much, much different than knowing about him, knowing the Bible, etc. It’s a deeply intimate, personal relationship.
Regarding ministering to God, it’s a primary call for believers. To be in the place of deep worship… night and day intercession… to fall in love with him… to adore him. That’s why spending hours at a time just on our face undone in his presence is so wonderful and important.
Regarding decrees and declarations… we have serious authority here on the Earth… as we minister, as we speak forth prophetically the word of the Lord, things change. The easy way to understand this is in the area of deliverance. We declare truth and demons have to obey.
February 26, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Craig Lee
John,
Well, you can ignore the plain context of the John verses cited above at your own peril. If we take the converse of the “many” referred to here then we get “few” who will make into the Kingdom who “prophecy in my name,” “drive out demons” and “perform many miracles.”
Regarding ministering to God, it’s a primary call for believers. To be in the place of deep worship… night and day intercession… to fall in love with him… to adore him.
Scripture makes it plain that we are to worship God; but, nowhere that I’ve seen in the Bible does it say that God NEEDS our ‘ministering’ to Him. Can you provide one biblical passage to support this? The obvious answer is “No” as one true God does not NEED us to do ANYTHING for him. He desires us to love Him; he desires that none perish; but, He alone is Sovereign over all. To think He somehow needs us demotes God to human level and perhaps promotes humans to a god level. Is this what you are trying to convey?
February 26, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Craig Lee
Regarding decrees and declarations… we have serious authority here on the Earth… as we minister, as we speak forth prophetically the word of the Lord, things change. The easy way to understand this is in the area of deliverance. We declare truth and demons have to obey.
Perhaps you may wish to read Bob DeWaay’s article which Kim has here:
https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/prophecy-or-divination/
February 26, 2010 at 12:29 pm
John Burton
Where did I say God ‘needs’ anything? I think you must have misread something.
I guess you could say that ‘need’ might imply that our intimacy with God is a primary and necessary element in this grand story.
He craves us… a primary call for us is to minister to God… to love on him, to worship him, to be deeply intimate with him.
If we don’t ‘know’ God, but know about him… it’s a dangerous thing. We must interact with him, worship him, listen to him, be touched by him, etc. to know him. As we do that, it very much ministers to God. We are called to bless God… that’s what this does.
February 26, 2010 at 12:33 pm
IWTT
The Bible also tells us in back-to-back verses not to despise prophecies and not to quench the Spirit. However, it’s becoming rare to find Christians and churches that embrace prophecy and Holy Spirit activity.
Here is the mistake that I believe is with this statement. You are making this assertion as a continuist who follows after Third Wave teaching which includes MSoG theology, Dominion Theology, and assorted other theologies that fall under the blanket of basically, Gnosticism/Montanist.
I don’t follow those theological teachings as being biblically supported because of contextual issue. As I interpret what you say by the latter 1/2 of that statement, is that it is rare to find churches (orthodox?) who embrace the teachings that you follow. Why is that?
The assumption is that they are quencing the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit), because they don’t embrace “prophetic words” as in foretelling or in the manner that is used much within the Third Wave teachings.
Yet many in the churches who don’t embrace what you are proposing are living full, Holy Spirit inspired lives, seeing many miracles of God in their lives and the lives around them without having to have a”manifestation” of some sort to prove the power and wonder of the Father. They ARE praying without ceasing and they ARE learning to live Holy and Righteous lives and more particularly exhibit the “Fruit of Spirit” in their everyday walk with the Lord.
You use 1 Thes 5:19-20 as a text for what you are proposing yet you left off the rest of the context 1Th 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 1Th 5:22 abstain from every form of evil.
Many Commentaries believe that the reason Paul added this in his letter is because at the time he had just visited the bereans (Acts) and they searched the scriptures to prove his preaching. Plus the church he wrote the letter to was abusing the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I imagine this may be one of the verses (“… hold fast) that is used for that great theological statement, “Eat the meat and spit out the bones” or “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.”
You also use the verse from Matt 7:10 “Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? and Lk 11:11 “Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
The two questions of vv. 9-10 expect the answer, “No parent would do this!” The provision of the good gifts is probably a reference to the wisdom and guidance supplied in response to repeated requests. The teaching as a whole stresses not that we get everything we want, but that God gives the good that we need. So John you make a point that is in my opinion out of context of what Jesus is teaching us. It is not necessarily about the “gifts of the Holy Spirit, or your assertion of prophecy and quenching of the Holy Spirit”.
And how does Matt 7:21 pertain to “it’s about intimacy”…? It seems to me the context, once again is the judgement of pretenders. It has to do with the wrath of God upon those who pretend to do the “manifestations” and I don’t think one can come to the conclusion that it is those in the world, but rather, those who are in the church, who think they are following Jesus and performing “signs and wonders”, possibly under a false theological belief system? Intamcy? A conclusion from the teaching you have received within Bridal Paradigm and the IHOP lessons?
It seems to me (IMHO) and many others that have confronted you that this direction you take within the confines of the theological teaching embraced by you and your backround within the “Prophetic Movement” is one of poor exegesis of scripture. You talk a good talk but in the end when tested to scripture with proper hermanuetics, it lacks real foundation and in the end you base your belief system on “experience” rather than scripture. The scripture is grided by experience rather than the other way around.
February 26, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Craig Lee
John,
Here are your EXACT words:
We have to be very careful to avoid the temptation to simply know more ABOUT God… we must personally know God… interact with him, hear his heart, minister to him, etc.
My question then: please show me in Scripture where “we must personally… minister to Him.”
And, regarding your post above @ 12:29pm:
He craves us… a primary call for us is to minister to God… to love on him, to worship him, to be deeply intimate with him.
Again, show me some Scriptural support for this. Does He really “crave us?” Are we really to “love on” Him? Once again, Scriptural support, please.
February 26, 2010 at 12:37 pm
IWTT
Well,
Looks like some one else beat me to the same issue…. All of these posted before I was done…. Craig agree with you brother….
February 26, 2010 at 12:39 pm
IWTT
He craves us… a primary call for us is to minister to God… to love on him, to worship him, to be deeply intimate with him.
Bridal Paradigm teachings once again….
February 26, 2010 at 12:42 pm
IWTT
Craig,
You know as well as I do that this is Song of Solomon and Bridal Paradigm stuff…..
It is IHOP-isms… That is their scriptural base, very much allegorical and as been the topic of many a site in the past as being extra-biblical and even possibly un-biblical.
February 26, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Craig Lee
IWTT,
Yes, we are in agreement. I just want John to state his beliefs with Scriptural support for the record. Yet, so far, he refuses.
February 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm
John Burton
Do you really mean that God doesn’t crave us? He’s indifferent to us? Really?
What about the prodigal son? That father yearned for his son.
God is love.
We are called to worship God… this is clearly ministry to God.
Psalms 139:17-18 (NKJV) 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You.
Exodus 33:11 (NKJV) So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.
We know that John rested on Jesus’ breast… God desires intimacy, friendship with us. This is very basic stuff… the gospel is all about relationship.
Can I share something? It feels like you presume me to be the enemy… when in fact we are two people who love Jesus simply talking. We’re just sharing differing ideas. We’re in the same camp… is this not true?
I do have concerns about those who know a lot about God but that knowledge doesn’t ever lead to an encounter. That’s what I feel the verse about ‘never knew you’ meant. God is tangible and actual. He should be experienced just like you and I are having an experience right now… just like I play with my kids, just like I go out to eat and talk with my wife.
God is real and he desires me. He’s full of life and joy.
February 26, 2010 at 1:02 pm
beyondgrace
The primary call for believers was given to us by Jesus himself. This is normally called the GREAT commission. Nothing in there about ministering to God.
“Regarding ministering to God, it’s a primary call for believers. To be in the place of deep worship… night and day intercession… to fall in love with him… to adore him. That’s why spending hours at a time just on our face undone in his presence is so wonderful and important.”
“He craves us… a primary call for us is to minister to God… to love on him, to worship him, to be deeply intimate with him.”
Even trying to apply the Shema to these statements is a bit of a stretch.
Not as if I have not preached the importance of initimacy with God. And not some Bridal Paridigm “jesus is my boyfriend” crap, either. Not sure where “ministering to God” as a primary call fits in to the equation.
So, I’d have to differe with your asessment of “a primary call.”
-Bill
February 26, 2010 at 1:33 pm
cherylu
Hi John,
Just want to throw my 2 cents worth in here not so much for you as I have said the same thing to you recently on another site, but for the benefit of others that may be reading this conversation and trying to weigh out what is being said by both sides here.
You know I came out of a very similar type of belief system that you are in now. I believe I also said that I still believe very much in the gifts of the Spirit being in operation today.
However, the point I would like to make is that during that time I was involved in these churches–and there were several of them–I heard many prophecies given and gave some myself. I don’t doubt that in most if not in all of these cases the people involved thought they were giving an accurate word from God. But, you know what? Obviously they weren’t because most of them did not come true at all.
So, yes, I believe there is a very real danger of Christians being deceived today and believing they are hearing from God when reality they are listening to their own imaginations or possibly even another spirit besides the Holy Spirit.
February 26, 2010 at 1:48 pm
John Burton
I am glad you wrote that.
The point you made is critical for us to discuss. It’s one reason why people run from the prophetic.
Prophecy is more of an invitation than a guarantee. It’s God revealing his plans to us, and then causing us to steward that calling.
“Failed prophecy” is usually not because it was false prophecy… it was because it was not stewarded.
It’s true that prophecy isn’t fulfilled for decades at times because of God’s delay… but, we have to be careful that the prophecy isn’t fulfilled on time due to OUR delay.
Most prophecy is conditional… it will only come to pass as we radically participate.
The enemy also rises up to thwart prophetic instructions from being carried out. It’s a huge, massive process.
All throughout scripture we see this principle… the Jordan was prophesied to part, but it wouldn’t if they didn’t step into it. Same thing with Moses and the Red Sea. Story after story in the OT and NT illuminate this principle.
Gideon wouldn’t have been successful unless he responded to God’s unique commands.
So, we need to embrace prophecy, hear God’s voice, pray hard and respond accordingly.
Oh, it can also work the other way!! For example, my wife receives warning dreams. It took some time to learn how to react. She had a dream that her neighbor’s house burned down, and that’s exactly what happened. She had a dream that her friend committed suicide, and that’s what happened.
Then, she realized the dreams were an invitation to stand in the gap, to intercede, to stop the enemy’s plans of destruction. Now she receives dreams like this, and prays earnestly, and responds accordingly, and the dreams don’t come to pass.
February 26, 2010 at 1:50 pm
John Burton
Bill- we often hear about the Great Commission, but most people leave out the Great Commandment. In fact the “Great Commission” isn’t even called that in scripture.
But the Great Commandment is… the most important thing is to love God deeply… with every part of us. And then it’s to love others.
The ‘great commission’ is truly great, but it can’t be fulfilled without responding to the primary call of the Great Commandment.
February 26, 2010 at 2:09 pm
cherylu
I don’t think what you said in reply to my comment really applies in the situations I am thinking of John. Maybe sometimes folks weren’t obedient when they were told to do something. But I don’t believe that is the issue here.
What I am thinking of is more like the church that was given a prohecy about the huge revival that was coming to the area in the fall and that they were going to be either at the forefront of it or very much involved, I don’t remember which. I happened to be in that church on a Sunday morning right after they received this prophecy. The Pastor was super hyped and was talking about all the wonderful and exciting things the Lord was going to do. He said something to the effect of, “You haven’t seen anything yet!” And guess what? Fall came and went and absolutely nothing happened–they didn’t see anything!
I have heard so many grandiose prophecies about what people were going to do and coming revivals etc. that just simply never happened.
Yes, sometimes things God says are conditional as in the case where he says, “If you do this, I will do this.”
But many other times what He says is not conditional at all. He speaks and says, “I will do it”, and it will happen because He is God. The prophecies I am speaking of had no conditions attached. They simply said, “I will do this”. Trouble was, He didn’t so obviously, He didn’t say it!
February 26, 2010 at 2:18 pm
John Burton
I’d say that even prophecy like that is conditional. Some people believe that all extra-biblical prophecy, all words we receive that are not specifically in scripture, are conditional.
In fact, a vision like the one you shared is HUGELY conditional. I can’t even imagine all of the intricate elements involved.
Were there witches opposing it? What did the people do to respond? What other dreams or visions were received? What specific instructions were there?
The enemy is very focused on killing seed like that. He’s often very effective.
Also, we prophesy in part. We see in part. Sometimes as humans we can communicate it imperfectly. Someone may say, “Thus says the Lord.” (which I coach people away from saying) when in reality there should have been more conditional revelation shared. Meaning, if this and this and this happen, then revival will break out.
I moved my family to Detroit to see revival break out here. I also received a lot of prophecy about a move of God in Colorado where my other ministry is located.
However, statistically the chances are not very high that either one will happen on time. But, if we respond precisely, and we hold back the attacks of the enemy, and we follow through exactly as we are called to, then it will break out on time.
February 26, 2010 at 2:28 pm
cherylu
John,
I actually remember 3 prophetic words given that there were going to be huge revivals in this area. No conditions given–just that they were coming. In one case we were told that we had two years to get ready for it before it came. But it was still stated that it was coming–we were just told to be prepared to handle it when it came. The third one I didn’t hear first hand but it was more along the lines of the first. God was sending a huge revival to the area that we lived in and we would be a part of it. Unless it was told to me all wrong, there were no ands, ifs, buts, or maybes attached. Just a God said this is what I am going to do.
Then there were all the personal ones about how God was going to mightily use so and so–including me. He didn’t say we had to do anything at all for Him to make these things come to pass–just that He was going to do it.
And then, of course my all time favorites. Two friends gave me very similar words from the Lord. And at about the same time, a guest speaker in the church that was ministering to people gave me a prophecy that pretty much directly contradicted what the other two said! Give me a break!
February 26, 2010 at 2:31 pm
John Burton
I’ve experienced prophecies that were missed too… that doesn’t phase me. I just learn from it, pray more and get ready for the next one.
I have been in the company of an actual false prophet… man, that was hard core… that did bother me.
How do you handle prophecy now?
February 26, 2010 at 2:49 pm
cherylu
At the moment I am not around folks that are giving prophecies. Like I said, I still believe it exists today and that the real is out there. I was just trying to make the point that it is very easy indeed to be deceived into thinking we are hearing God’s voice when we are not.
And frankly, I have been around way more of the stuff that never proved out than anything that ever did.
Have to go for now at least. My day is getting away from me very fast and my “need to do list” is not going anywhere at the moment!
February 26, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Kim
I like this from Tom Stipe
Tom Stipe, in the foreword to Counterfeit Revival, speaks powerfully about the problem of false prophets in the church:
If the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken: If a prophet says, “Thus says the Lord,” claiming that something will happen, and it does not happen, then that prophet must be held accountable for that false prophecy – and we are no longer to regard that person as a prophet. (from the BLB)
February 26, 2010 at 3:46 pm
John Burton
We should not allow prophecy to ever replace scripture. That should go without saying.
But, we are all to operate in that gift. It’s the most important.
It’s not an either/or scenerio… it’s both/and. Rhema and Logos.
February 26, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Kim
The Bible says different.
Not all are to have the same gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:10 “to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another…”
In chapter 13 love is the most excellent way. verse 2. “If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I gain nothing.” 8. “Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease…”
So here it does not say that we are to “all operate in that gift. It’s the most important.” as you have stated.
February 26, 2010 at 4:37 pm
John Burton
1 cor 14:1
February 26, 2010 at 4:40 pm
cherylu
Just popping back in for a moment….
Kim,
I have a hunch John was referring to I Cor 14:1 and the discussion following where he says, “I wish that you all spoke in tongues but more importantly that you prophecy.” (Probably my paraphrase.)
“Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual {gifts,} but especially that you may prophesy.” I Cor. 14:1
February 26, 2010 at 4:41 pm
cherylu
Guess I was right about my hunch!
February 26, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Kim
I still think the previous chapter about love trumps the single verse of 1 Corinthians 14:1 where Paul is now comparing tongues and prophecy.
Matthew Henry says this:
In this chapter the apostle directs them about the use of their spiritual gifts, preferring those that are best and fitted to do the greatest good. I. He begins with advising them of all spiritual gifts to prefer prophesying, and shows that this is much better than speaking with tongues (v. 1-5).
and David Guzik
a. Pursue love: Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, has brilliantly declared the preeminence of love for Christians in 1 Corinthians 13. Now, since love is the greatest, we must pursue it.
b. Desire spiritual gifts: There was nothing wrong with the Corinthian Christian’s desire for spiritual gifts. But they had made a godly desire into an obsessive pursuit, when the only pursuit for Christians is to be love.
c. Especially that you may prophesy: In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul spoke of prophecy and the gift of tongues only in the context of the other gifts of the Spirit. Now, he will focus on the gifts of prophecy and tongues, and how they should function in church body life. Obviously, in the Corinthian church, there was an over-emphasis on tongues, and an under-emphasis on prophecy.
But thank you for pointing out 1 Corinthians 14:1 to me.
February 26, 2010 at 5:40 pm
cherylu
Kim,
I certainly agree that love trumps the gifts according to chapter 13. That does not negate the fact that we are to “earnestly desire the spiritual gifts.”
Maybe part of the misunderstanding in this conversation is that we are talking about two different things here: the fruits of the Spirit, (and the first one listed is love) It is also the greatest commandment, “Love God with your whole being,” (paraphrased again,) and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” The second thing we are talking about is spiritual gifts which Paul says we are to “desire earnestly”. If we mix the two categories, we get confusion, don’t you think?
February 26, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Craig Lee
John,
You wrote:
Do you really mean that God doesn’t crave us? He’s indifferent to us? Really?
What about the prodigal son? That father yearned for his son.
You are an author; so, I take you at your words as I assume you choose your words carefully. I would appreciate if you did not change my words as I NEVER said God is indifferent toward us.
You say God “craves” us? Is that really the word you want to use?
God created us; and, He gave each of us a choice to serve Him or not. Sadly, most will not as Mattew 7:13-14 makes clear.
In the parable of the lost/prodigal son; it is because the lost son is repentent that the Father takes him back with open arms. God is merciful — thankfully! However, keep in mind that not all are true sons of God as scripture makes clear.
God is love, yes; but, the other side of that same coin is justice. His laws are clear; and, if one chooses to not obey those laws — accept His Son and obey His commands — then this person is lost.
February 26, 2010 at 5:51 pm
cherylu
I find this very interesting. Here is the defintion of the word translated “desire earnestly” in the Thayer’s Lexicon. Assuming it is correct–I have been told that it is very outdated–it throws quite a light on what Paul is saying here.
Thayer’s “1) to burn with zeal
a) to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger
1) in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good
b) to desire earnestly, pursue
1) to desire one earnestly, to strive after, busy one’s self about him
) to exert one’s self for one (that he may not be torn from me)
3) to be the object of the zeal of others, to be zealously sought after
c) to envy
If this is the true meaning of the word, and the way it is used in other places in the NT seem to me to indicate it is, I think it is fair to say we are to “pursue” spiritual gifts.
February 26, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Craig Lee
cherylu:
Would you mind looking up and posting the definition of “prophecy” according to Thayer’s?
February 26, 2010 at 8:33 pm
cherylu
Here it is Craig:
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
a) to prophesy
b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels
1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
This is the word used in I Cor 14:1. I don’t know for sure if it is the only word that is translated “prophecy” in the NT or not. Would have to do some more checking to find that out.
February 26, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Craig Lee
cherylu:
Thanks for posting. It’s pretty much the same as Strong’s from Studylight:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4395
The verb form that is. The noun has the same root. I was wondering if the Strong’s differed at all from Thayer’s.
This Greek word is the one used all through 1 Corinthians 12-14. I had done a word study a few years ago and determined that elsewhere by context it was clear that prophecy/prophesy/prophet referred to a forthtelling, declaration of/about God or teaching rather than a foretelling/prediction. Most of the Acts passages are examples.
Interestingly, I have a Webster’s Dictionary circa 1980 which defines prophet as:
1) a person who speaks for God or a god, or as though under divine inspiration
2) a religious teacher or leader regarded as, or claiming to e, divinely inspired
3) a spokesman for some cause, group, movement, etc.
4) a person who predicts future events in any way.
Note how the definition for prediction is 4th on the list.
Also, I’m sure you’re aware of the charismatic’s use of the OT “school of the prophets” [I forget where this is right now as I’m very tired] to justify various supernatural training centers. Well, in my Webster’s the following is listed after the 4th definition above:
school of the prophets: among the ancient Israelites, a school or college in which young men were educated to become teachers of religion among the people. These students were called sons of the prophets.
Once again, the teaching aspect is spoken of here and not foretelling/predicting.
February 26, 2010 at 9:24 pm
Kim
It has been good to get home and read carefully 1 Corinthians 12-14. Here are a few thoughts.
No one speaks much of the Romans passage though. Romans was written two years after Corinthians. (even though it precedes Corinthians in the Bible) This list from 12:3-8 includes prophesying but not tongues. Not much is said about teaching and serving, giving, ruling, and mercy. Not very controversial…hhmmm!
But 1 Corinthians 12 starts with an interesting verse. They had a history of paganism, so maybe this is why this chapter has a sense of admonition.
But I want to point out 1 Peter 4: 10-11…it refers to two gifts speaking and serving. Peter was written much later in the early 60’s.
1Pe 4:10 As each one has received a gift G5486 (charisma), minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, G2980[let him] [speak] as the oracles G3051 of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Now we have speaking instead of prophesying which has a different meaning, it is plain speaking.
G2980 laleō
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one’s mind and disclose one’s thoughts
a) to speak
But look at what we are to speak of…..I think this is very revealing, the oracles of God.
G3051 laleō
1) a brief utterance, a divine oracle (doubtless because oracles were generally brief)
a) in the NT, the words or utterances of God
b) of the contents of the Mosaic law
I cannot copy and paste from the Thayers Lexicon, but look at the additional things that we are to speak of using God’s gift of charisma.
an utterance of God whether precept or promise
the prophecies of the Old Testament
The ten commandments
contents of the Mosaic law and Messianic promises
THE SUBSTANCE OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
THE UTTERANCES OF GOD THROUGH CHRISTIAN TEACHERS
THE SAYINGS AND DISCOURSES OF CHRIST WHICH ARE RECORDED IN THE GOSPELS
THE WORDS AND ADMONITIONS OF GOD IN THE SACRED SCRIPTURES
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3051&t=KJV#
WOW!
February 26, 2010 at 9:59 pm
cherylu
If any of you are interested, this is the source I used to copy from Thayers: http://www.blueletterbible.org/#
Beside every verse of Scripture there are several icons. The “C” icon is for the link to the concordance. If you click on it, it gives you the verse with the Hebrew or Greek words and the Strong’s number. You can click on any individual word and get the lexicon definition. The New Testament links to Thayer’s. It also lists for you every use of that word in the Bible.
This site also links to several different commentaries from each verse and you can also link to another window that will give you that verse in about 12 different English versions of the Bible. All of those versions are also available to be linked to for whole chapters at a time.
The site also has other features, but those are the ones I find most helpful and go back to repeatedly.
February 26, 2010 at 10:46 pm
John Burton
I absolutely believe that God craves relationship with us… it’s what drove Jesus to the cross. He zealously yearns for us, enjoys us deeply. His desire for you and me is intense.
Many people feel God will be stern and swift in his judgment when he says, “Depart from me I never knew you.”
I do not. I can’t imagine the pain he will feel that day. Tears will stream down his face… his love is so consuming that the thought of being without the object of his affection (mankind) is beyond explanation.
February 27, 2010 at 6:40 am
Kim
It Is our SIN that put Jesus on the Cross……what you just said is a false teaching and you just showed that you do not understand the Cross at all.
You might learn something from the teachings of Paul Washer. Why wasn’t it possible that God just forgive us? Because of Proverbs 17:15
“He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.”
So if God forgives your and my wickedness He himself is no longer a just God. He becomes just like an unfair and unjust crooked judge, but God is just.
You are a sinner and have become an enemy of God and He will thrown you into Hell, because our God is also a wrathful God.
God says things in the Bible like, “I will hate them, I will come against them, I will fight against them. I will set my face against you.
He is coming back with sword in His wrath.
In Isaiah 53:10 it says. “But the Lord was pleased to crush Him.”
Why? because He had become our sin. You and I are an abomination who deserves to die under God’s wrath. In order for God to save us He crushed His Son under His own wrath.
Now that we are justified by propitiation God cannot pour His wrath on us. Because Jesus drank the cup.
God is love but if we reject Him, will we go to Hell. That is why the Christian rejoices.
February 27, 2010 at 6:53 am
Kim
A friend sent me this sermon last week on the teaching of the cross.
I highly recommend it.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=111909932591
February 27, 2010 at 7:28 am
John Burton
Of course our sin was the reason for the cross… but certainly you believe that God’s love was so intense for us that he was willing to die for us to be with us, right?