STRANGE FIRE BEFORE THE LORD – Fire Tunnels

You know, from my experience, it is not just the young folks that are involved in fire tunnels. When I came out of a “River” church several years back, pretty much all ages participated in the fire tunnels. It was just one of many ways used to experience the “fire”.

Something else that I noticed in this video was the segment with the drumming. I remember very well being in a meeting where at first there was what I still believe was genuine worship of God. At some point the singing stopped and the young people on the drums just kept drumming, and drumming, and drumming. I have no idea how long it went on, but it was quite prolonged. And I remember that there came a point in time when the atmosphere in the room changed dramatically. From sencing the presence of the Lord, the presence I senced there changed to something distinctly different and I believe to this day it was demonic. It was an experinece that I don’t want to ever go through again.

As usual…sigh!!!!!

Im didn’t hear any praise at all. Not one hallelujah, or worthy, or Glory, or thank you jesus, or anything. Hmmm..Im not going to judge, cause i can relate to the over whelming presence of the Lord that makes you feel jerky or even unable to stand. Maybe with some its a genuine experiance, but maybe for some its shallow and mimicked. Maybe for some its wicked. i dont know.

Obviously, there is no place in scripture that says, “Thou shalt have fire tunnels.”but the command to pray for one another and to seek relationship with God, healing, and yes, even deliverance is described and encouraged. My concern here is that there are at least 2 ways we can fall into error: one is to accept everything that comes down the pike, without screening or testing the spirits as the scripture commands. The other is to reject spiritual activity that manifests in a way we have not seen before, just because it is different, weird, or foolish in human terms. I have emailed a friend who visited the TACF many times, and she shared honestly that it was a mixed bag. Some tremendous healings and spiritual fruit came out of it, but there were definitely fleshly corruptions that entered the picture – overemphasis on money, elitism of speakers, etc.. I guess my bottom line is this – no one counterfeits a $3.00 bill – they only imitate what is real and valuable, like a $20 or a $50 bill. Anytime the Lord’s presence is manifest, there is an opportunity for the devil to discredit it simply by tempting our human egos, fears, etc… I know there are abuses, that is why I am looking so carefully to discern the difference between what is from God and what is counterfeit, especially when they almost always come together! The wheat and the tares describe the times we live in perfectly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jayebird,

Regarding there being no scriptural basis regarding fire tunnels, there is this reference in Jude 1:23, which would seem to suggest that instead of sending people through tunnels of fire, we Christians should be concentrating on snatching them from the fire instead.

God bless.

“I know there are abuses, that is why I am looking so carefully to discern the difference between what is from God and what is counterfeit, especially when they almost always come together! The wheat and the tares describe the times we live in perfectly. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.” Good for you….!

From here… http://messiahsbranch.org/articles/art_wheat_tares.htm

“…, the wheat and tares are growing together. Harvest is approaching. The golden colors are beginning to appear. The tares are exalting themselves above the wheat. They look just like the wheat, only taller. At first glance, one might presume that the tares are actually a bigger, healthier stalk of wheat. But when you examine the tares closely you discover that they have no grain within them. They look like wheat, grow in among the wheat, and exalt themselves above the wheat, as to deceive us into thinking that they are a more mature stalk of wheat. But, alas, they are barren and without a grain of wheat within. No grain(fruit) do they produce. There is no bread of life within the tares.

Another reason why we need to be able to test. You are right the wheat and tares are all around these days. This is why I have some issues with all of the “signs and wonders” ministries of today. They are exalted above Jesus. It’s putting the works of the Holy Spirit above what the main purpose is, to point to Jesus. Even the Holy Spirit states what His job is in John. He never was to the focus, and I fear that is what is happening today.

Tim, I totally agree with you – we are to seek the giver, not the gift. And the tares will exalt themselves rather than Jesus. and Kim, I also agree with you – the fire of the Holy Spirit brings purification, power for ministry and Christlikeness. which brings me back to the original question – when you see things being done in the name of the Lord, that have some scriptural basis in principal, but do not fit “the norm”, how do you rightly discern what is holy fire and what is false fire? I would say humility is paramount, and the discernment of God’s spirit in our hearts as to what raises a red flag – Is it scriptural?, Does it honor Christ?, What fruit is it producing?, What is the spirit being manifested? When I saw Todd Bentley a few times on TV, I had some concerns, and red flags, but until the “fall” didn’t see the the whole of the fruit. By then it’s too late – people have been deceived. BUT there were people who were blessed as well – it seems God works in spite of us more than we know. God bless

I wanted to clarify what Matthew 3:11 means by adding verse 12:

11″I baptize you with[a] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” NIV

To me this says clearly that the Holy Spirit will separate the wheat from the tares (chaff). I do not take this passage to mean that the Holy Spirit will use ‘fire’ to purify Christians although there are other passages which speak of sanctification as a purification.

Fire most often speaks of judgment.

Jayebird,

While i am a continuationist, and see no real scriptural back-up for the discontinuation of the gifts, I do see that the practice of them in many areas of ministry have far exceeded what God meant them for. According to Ephesians 4 they were meant for edifying the church, and for equipping the saints for ministry. Period.

No where in the Bible does it say that these things were meant for our own or another else’s ministry, or personal promotion or edification. Rather we are to humbly use the gifts God has granted, as Jesus did, so that others would glorify God. If we look at the practices of some of the so called modern day prophets and apostles, we can see that they use spiritual gifts for personal gain- to either make a lucrative living off them, or to push their own agendas as spiritual gurus, or both

Neither way promotes the gospel truthfully. Instead of the Gift Giver being glorified, and people coming to Christ because of that, the person of Christ and the cross is lost in the rush to religious fortune telling.

That’s the difference in false signs and wonders and the real thing. And that’s why good apologetics are necessary nowadays to to help us separate the two.

Jayebird:

The “fire” in Matthew 3:11 speaks of the chaff/tares as verse 12 says. These verses DO NOT speak of the purification of the Christian. I’ve seen this verse (3:11) and the two passages you cite above (Acts 2 and Eph 5:15-20) as proof texts for Latter Rain and/or Mike Bickle/IHOP adherents. The Acts and Ephesians verses are not about the so-called ‘being drunk in the Spirit’ you refer to.

The Ephesians verses are talking about being filled with the Holy Spirit AS OPPOSED to being filled with drink — not that being filled with the Spirit is like being drunk.

In the Acts passages the new Christians — having been the first to be indwelled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost — were speaking in KNOWN tongues so that the audience could understand, receive the message and be saved.

I’ve seen all 3 of these passages above used to justify extra-biblical manifestations from a ‘spirit’ which individuals claim is the Holy Spirit. I’ve witnessed a counterfeit firsthand. The Holy Spirit does not draw attention unto Himself — He points to the Son, Jesus.

I have also read that Acts 2 account many times and I feel that what we are reading is really not that those in the upper room were acting drunk, but rather the crowd were being sarcastic and just made the accusation out of fear of the unknown.

Now here is a question for you. Were they really speaking in other tongues or did the crowd HEAR them in other tongues? Their own languages?

Just thought I’d throw that in?

oops I meant Leviticus 1: 9,13 etc…
Sorry, fat fingers:)

Actually, these fire tunnels and other ways of receiving the same “anointing” and manifesting in the same way are often referred to as “partying in the Holy Spirit.” I don’t think that sounds quite the same as being cleansed by fire, do you?

There is only one true anointing; and, that anointing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:18-27 NIV]

All other “anointings” are false — not of God.

puepee,

It was a local church and pastor I referred to above. But referring to this type of behaviour as partying in the Spirit isn’t just a local phenomena. It happens elsewhere too.

Craig, – I agree…
“There is only one true anointing; and, that anointing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:”
…but do you realize that all of these people would believe that this anointing was the Holy Spirit? I don’t think many people agree to experience a false anointing – they are deceived! If you asked any one of those people shaking and “being drunk in the Spirit”, they would tell you it is the Holy Spirit, because Satan appears as an “angel of light.” We are all looking for the Holy Spirit, not the false one, but if the manifestations are the same or similar – crying, laughing, falling down, shaking, how would you know which is holy and which is manipulated or a mocking spirit?

“but if the manifestations are the same or similar – crying, laughing, falling down, shaking, how would you know which is holy and which is manipulated or a mocking spirit?

Where does it say in scripture that these manifestations are real experiences of the Holy Spirit? The church in Corinth, as far as I can tell, was a church that might have been getting overly zealous in their meetings. But Paul was telling them to be controlled, to do things “decently and orderly” or they would be/could be called “fools”, especially by unbelievers.

Ultimately, what is the purpose of these manifestations? What is it that one would say who attends these types of meetings and involves themselves or seeks these manifestations? What do these mainifestations do for them?

I am a part of a mainline denomination and also a part of some “Charismatic” worship services. When i was a teenager, I was at summer camp, where i became a Christian, and where I once experienced what I now know to be “Holy Laughter”. At the time, I didn’t know what it was, nor was I very familiar with. It was not hysterical, nor was it something I was seeking. We remained after a worship service to pray and our focus was on Jesus. It was a gift of joy from the Holy Spirit that bubbled up in overflowing merriment. It lasted about 15 minutes, the leaders ended the prayer time and we all went to bed.
I share that only to express that there are differences within this phenomenon. Is it abused today for personal gain, yes, absolutely. But is there something authentic here to look at a little deeper, yes, absolutely. My “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” changed my life in the deepest ways possible and enriched my life and growth in Christ in a phenomenal way. It has driven me deeper into the scriptures, given me more grace toward others, and changed my heart in ways I could not have done on my own on many occasions.
I understand that shaking and falling down might be overboard for some of you, but when Jesus was about to be taken by the Roman soldiers, they “fell to the ground” from His divine power when Jesus said, “I am He”. ( John 18:6)

To include crying in that list as “not from the Holy Spirit” is surprising to me. Have you never been so moved in worship that your heart is melted before the Lord? Are there no emotions to be expressed in our modern sophisticated rituals? I don not support emotionalism and sentimentality, but I leave room for emotions – the Jewish people were among the most expressive on earth, and God used that to show His deep, powerful emotions toward us. It would be a tragic loss to leave out our emotions out of fear of excess and be left with a dry ritual that never touches our souls.
If you are a dispensationalist, nothing I say will change your mind, and I don’t have vested interest in whether fire tunnels are scriptural. I care more that people are prayed for, not preyed on(taken from Terry Teykl’s book, “Prayed for or Preyed on”)and that the Holy Spirit is welcome in our churches and in our hearts. If the Spirit indwells me, it is not about me losing control, but about the Spirit controlling me more and more, getting my self will off the throne. My focus is on Jesus, and I welcome His prompting to pray in tongues, and pray for healing, as the scripture says.
I know a woman who is a nurse, who was healed of Lupus in one of these “Charismatic” worship services 2 years ago, and she has medical documentation to prove it. She is a Methodist minister now. While there is a danger that these groups can go off the deep end, they are also so committed to prayer, that they have 24 hour prayer watches. That is a passion for Jesus that is missing in many of our churches. I love John Wesley’s teaching on discovering the will of God. He uses the “Quadrilateral” of Scripture, (primary) Tradition,(the wisdom of the saints before us)Reason(common sense) and Experience(leaving the door open for God to teach us something). The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus Himself, and is love incarnate. That love is emotional and scriptural. We must be wise – the disciples had to correct wrong teaching that sprung up not long after Jesus died, so we are prone to error. I do not believe that if we ask for bread, he will give us a stone. If we ask for His Holy Spirit, He will answer us as He did the disciples in the Upper Room and send His Comforter, who will teach us what is true.(26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26,
“When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
John 15:25-27
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13)

Kim,

I had read the article you linked above several years ago and finally just took the time to reread it now.

One of the things that I found most convincing personally when I was leaving this whole movement was the very fact that these “manifestations” really aren’t seen in the Bible. But they are found all over the world in false relilgions and the New Age movement! Something is seriously wrong with that picture.

I would like to share some excerpts form John Wesley’s preaching in the mid 1700’s, taken from the following source online.
JOHN WESLEY:
REVIVAL AND REVIVALISM, 1736-1768
by Charles H. Goodwin
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/31-35/31-1-08.htm

(I apologize for its length, but it was interesting to me to see the sincerity and controversy that also followed his ministry – that’s why he was thrown out of the Church of England – because he dared to preach salvation to the common people in the streets and the forests, not in a church – considered blasphemy at the time. He also saw strange things not mentioned specifically in the Bible, likely because the writers did not go into as much detail about those rantings, although I would think the story of the madman, clothed in his right mind might have included some bizarre behaviors if they had been fully recorded. I am not implying that I want to add anything to the Biblical text, just trying to show that there are authentic spiritual experiences that look a whole lot like the crazy things in this video – you MUST seek the Lord for discernment and be wise as serpents and innocent as doves as the wheat and the tares grow up together. He also had to discern the false, mocking and deceptive exhibitions among the people – see last paragraph. Jayebird)

On a Thursday evening at the Savoy there were “usually 200 or 300.”[35] At this time Wesley, as Henry Rack observes, “was moving in a highly-charged charismatic atmosphere in which he thought he saw the scenes of the Acts of the Apostles reproduced, with all the strange gifts of the apostolic age repeated: not only instant conver­sions, but visions. demon possession and healing.”[36]
A new dimension was added to the charismatic character of the revival with sporadic incidents of hysterical behavior (i.e., deep, disturbed emotions expressing themselves through exaggerated physical activities) from the beginning of 1739. On January 1 during a love-feast at Fetter Lane attended by some sixty people: “About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we had recovered a little from that awe and amaze­ment at the presence of his majesty, we broke out with one voice, ‘We praise thee. O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord,'”[37] On Sunday, January 21, while Wesley was expounding in the Minories “A well-dressed middle-aged woman cried out as in the agonies of death. She con­tinued so to do for some time, with all the signs of the sharpest anguish of spirit.”[38] At Oxford, while praying with a woman in her house. “she fell into an extreme agony both of body and soul. and soon after cried out with the utmost earnestness. ‘Now I know, I am forgiven for Christ’s sake.'”[39] The following evening Wesley met her again with a number of her neighbors. One of these “felt as it were the piercing of a sword” and in the street outside the house “could not avoid crying out aloud.” Wesley no longer maintained a detached attitude with such sufferers but began to pray for her relief together with her companions.[40]

Wesley, therefore, arrived and preached in Bristol in a state of intense excitement. His agitation matched the mood of the city which was in a state of social turbulence and transition because of its development as an industrial and commercial center and port.

Wesley’s excitement reached a climax on the morning of Thursday, April 26, at Newgate Prison. While preaching on the words “He that believeth hath everlasting life,” Wesley was led, without any previous design, “to speak strongly and explicitylt of Predestination, and the to pray ‘that if I spake not the truth of God, He would not delay to confirm it by signs following.'” In spontaneously calling upon God to vindicate the gospel of free grace with the instant public conviction and conversion of sinners, John Wesley, the popular revivalist, was born. The proper clergyman arrayed in his gowns and bands[46] who had been, until just prior to his arrival in Bristol, “so tenacious of every point relating to decency and order” that he “should have thought the saving almost a sin, if it had not been done in a church,”[47] was now casting all his inhibitions aside, and calling publicly and fervently upon God to convict and convert his hearers: “Immediately the power of God fell upon us: one and another, and another sunk to the earth: you might see them dropping on all sides as thunder-struck. One cried out aloud. I went and prayed over her, and she received joy in the Holy Ghost. A second falling into the same agony, we turned to her, and received for her the promise of the Father. In the evening I made the same appeal to God, and almost before we called He answered. A young woman was seized with such page (pangs? pain?)as I never saw before: and in a quarter of an hour she a new song in her mouth, a thanksgiving unto our God.[48]

3. His toleration of bizarre, hysterical behavior. Thomas Max-field sunk down as though he were dead, “but soon began to roar out, and beat himself as one dead, so that six men could scarcely hold him.” An awed Wesley recorded: “I never saw one so torn of the evil one.”[53] There was an element present at the meetings which feigned this violent crisis of conversion, either persons drawing attention to themselves or indulging in drunken horseplay. Charles Wesley was always willing to eject any imposters who disturbed his meetings in these ways. At Pelton on June 4, 1743, he left a drunkard come fresh from the ale-house to thrash about on the floor and to beat himself heartily without anyone praying over him; and a girl suffering from violent convulsions was carried out of the room, placed on the floor outside the door, and at once recovered the use of her limbs.[54] John Wesley was quite prepared to accept that “in some few cases, there was a mixture of dissimulation – that persons pretended to see or feel what they did not, and imi­tated the cries and convulsive motions of those who were really were really overpowered by the Spirit of God; yet even this should not make us either deny or undervalue the real work of the Spirit.”[55]