In Todd Bentley’s initiation “ordination” ceremony last week one George
Banov spoke providing Bentley a ‘prophetic word.’ I must say that
initially, at least, he was a welcome relief following the demonic,
frenetic, wild head shakin’ thang of Stacey Campbell. Banov comes in at
6:00 minutes:
A quick internet search could not produce much info on Banov; but, he’s
obviously of the same heretical Latter Rain ‘stream’ as the others on stage.
The reason I wish to call attention to this is the fact that in his ‘word’
Banov uses two Messianic prophetic scriptures and claims God told him these
were for Bentley! Here’s the transcription:
“Todd on behalf of the Eastern European nations and former Communist
Countries, we want to tell you that we acknowledge and honor what’s upon
you. And, we give you the keys for Eastern Europe — especially the poor,
the rejected, the gypsies.
“And The Lord says that because you’ve loved his personal presence there are
two anointings that are released on His presence and I just want to release
those two anointings on you from the LORD. By the way, the Lord says ‘you
are well pleasing son.’ The Father, Abba, says that to you personally. The
first anointing is the anointing of the pleasure of the LORD. [emphasis
mine]
“’Surely He has borne our grief, sickness and weakness and carried our
sorrow and the pain and the punishment of us all. He was considered
stricken, smitten and afflicted by God; but, He was bruised for our
transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities and chastisement
that brought our peace came upon him and by His stripes we were healed and
made whole.’ [Isaiah 53:4-5] And, yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him
and in His presence there is fullness of joy and pleasure for evermore.
[This is apparently a paraphrase of more than one scripture with another.]
And, God’s releasing his pleasure of what He did to Jesus upon you Todd.
“And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45
but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have
loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and
uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and
iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant
joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you.”
Not only does he quote two Messianic scriptures and applies these to
Bentley, he even goes so far as to claim that the Lord referred to Todd as a
‘well pleasing son’ thus putting Bentley on par with Jesus! [Matthew 3:17;
Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22] Does this not show this group to be promoting
Manifest Sons of God doctrine – part of the heresy of the Latter Rain
teachings? And, no one batted an eyelash on stage or in the audience. In
fact, they clapped and cheered.
I wish to point out that there is only one true anointing – the anointing of
the Holy Spirit upon true believers who accept Jesus Christ as their
personal savior.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the
truth. 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but
because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the
liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the
antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has
the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it
does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what
he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you
astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you,
and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you
about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit — just as it
has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:20-27 NIV]
To promote that we can attain Christlikeness this side of glory is
tantamount to denying Jesus Christ’s exclusive Divinity as the One and only
Son of God. As the Apostle John points out above, this is the spirit of
antichrist.
submitted by Craig “Lee” Dorsheimer
DiscernIt 
312 comments
July 3, 2008 at 9:43 am
Kim
Thenonconformer,
You have a comment that was just released…It was caught in my spam controller because of the excessive links. Please keep links to a minimum and make your argument yourself instead. Thank you so much in advance by being brief and concise and staying in topic.
July 3, 2008 at 9:51 am
Lee
John,
I just re-read my comments to you about political correctness. I have a feeling you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I didn’t mean that you always adhere to being pc. My point was that by prefacing points with “in my humble opinion” sounds pc — as if we don’t want to offend. This is not what is found in the NT especially Jesus’ own words such as “hypocrites” “brood of vipers” “whitewashed tombs” etc.
July 3, 2008 at 10:00 am
Lee
thenon,
OK, now that your post @ 3:37 is in view I will respond to it. I appreciate the fact that you have presented one of your points of view that relates directly to the post. I will resond in full when I return from lunch.
However, I did want to say that your 2nd to last paragraph goes off on a tangent having little to do with the post. Please try to keep comments within the scope of the original post. Many thanks in advance on this.
July 3, 2008 at 10:49 am
Tim H
theNon…
The early Pentecostals connect their own experience of the Spirit with that of the disciples, and Peter’s quoting of Joel’s prophecy in Acts 2: 16-21 is a further prophecy that God would pour out his Spirit again at a later time.
I disagree with your statement and do not believe that as I read and re-read the scriptures referenced that your statement can be supported by those verses. It is an on-going process from the day of Pentecost and not another period.
I believe the operating word in your sentence above that the Holy Spirit told me was incorrect is AGAIN.
Peter was supporting what was going on in the upper room as the beginning of the Latter days and that the spirit of God that poured out for sons and fathers, mothers and daughters, was beginning from then and that it is on-going and not another later experience.
The discussion here for me is not about Todd Bentley whether he is a good man or not. I don’t know him. My issue is not whether prophecy is for today or not. My greatest issue is whether the prophetic word is proper or not and can be supported by scripture from the manual that is “sufficient for life”. This “prophetic word” as I hear it and interpret it is likening Todd to Jesus and he is not Jesus. He is not the messiah.
Again I ask, how do you support this “prophetic word” or how are you interpreting this “prophetic word”? Come-om you have been a pastor for 30 years, convince me the truth of this word, please.
July 3, 2008 at 11:08 am
mbaker
I wonder if some of these folks would call the apostle Paul a heresy hunter or a bully. Here’s what he said to the Corinthians who were objecting to his correction of false practices and teachings in their church:
“I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and claims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.” 2 Corinthians 11:2-4 (ESV)
That’s pretty descriptive of some of the new revelations the so called modern day prophets and apostles are pushing and how their adherents are accepting them without question. I’ve often wondered why the blind acceptance, when these revelations such as Banov’s above can’t be verified. Then, duh, it hit me. That’s exactly why they do get away with it!
Paul must have been seen some of the same type good ole boy back slapping that we see in this clip, for he warned the Corinthians:
“Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another they are without understanding.”
(2 Corinthians 10:12) ESV
Notice the boasting of his own “anointing” that goes on in Bentley’s ministry as well, not only in this clip, but in others all over Youtube. Paul warns specifically against making Christian ministry a platform to boast about our personal accomplishments.
“Let the one who boasts,boast in the Lord. For it is not the one who commends himself that is approved but the one the Lord commends.”
(2 Corinthians 10:18) ESV
While I can see Todd’s fans are loyally singing his praises, I seriously doubt the Lord commends him for saying that the church already knew enough about Jesus and needed to know more about the ministry of angels. That’s when Todd revealed the now infamous angel Emma as the source of his revelations.
Now Banov is telling us that even though Bentley more or less brushed Christ aside, that God “said” Bentley is a well pleasing son?
July 3, 2008 at 11:15 am
Lee
mbaker,
All good points well reasoned and exposited. Thanks for your input.
July 3, 2008 at 11:19 am
John Burton
Wow, a lot has happened here since yesterday! I agree that Jesus has appeared to people many times. He appeared to Paul, for example. I can’t see how that would even be debatable.
Regarding the topic of this post, the prayer wasn’t replacing Jesus with Todd. It’s not uncommon for people to receive prophetic words that mirror God’s heart for Jesus.
Just because the Father in scripture told Jesus, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased” doesn’t disqualify God from saying that to you or me. He loves Jesus and he loves us- both as sons, yet still distinctly (very distinctly!) different. Jesus is God and the Son while we are NOT God yet still sons.
John the Baptist was called “the burning and shining lamp”. It’s ok for God to also call us into that reality as well.
As for this:
“And, the second anointing that he wants to release upon you is in Psalm 45
but it’s also in Hebrews chapter one verse nine. It says, ‘Because you have
loved righteousness and you have delighted in integrity and virtue and
uprightness in heart and thought and action and you have hated injustice and
iniquity; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultant
joy and gladness above and beyond your companions.’ We bless you.”
Is it not possible that Todd loves righteousness and has delighted in integrity? God can anoint Todd or you or me with joy, gladness, etc.
We can receive a double portion anointing as Elisha did. Etc., etc.
To hear that and presume that someone is calling Todd God is to radically misunderstand. Then, to defame someone based on this is tragic.
Intellectualism can get us into trouble. We must love people, and we must love truth. When we love truth alone, it turns to intellectualism. When we love both, we have mercy and grace, while still being zealous for the truth… yet also for people.
We judge the spirit of what was said, gracefully understanding that humans don’t always communicate perfectly, and they also may have differing perspectives just as I have shared here.
Lastly, regarding being PC, I understand your point. However, there is a time to firmly make a point, but it must be with both humility and boldness. The point I’m trying to make is that you are so sure you are right, that grace and humility has been overlooked. The problem is when we enforce our viewpoints without admitting that we may be wrong.
You call something heretical, while someone else who loves truth and God would be on the other end of the spectrum. How do you suggest we handle this?
July 3, 2008 at 11:51 am
Lee
John,
First, I want to thank you for responding to some of the substantive issues of the original post.
Is it not possible that Todd loves righteousness and has delighted in integrity?
Are you really serious on this? Bentley has told countless lies and some lies to cover some of those.
To hear that and presume that someone is calling Todd God is to radically misunderstand. Then, to defame someone based on this is tragic.
It’s when all this is put together that I reached the conclusion that Banov is essentially calling Todd ‘God.’ This is especially true when you begin with the Isaiah verses Banov cites first. By BENTLEY’s stripes we are healed? 1) Where are Bentley’s ‘bruises’ and ‘stripes?;’ and, 2) there has been absolutely no proof of healing at all as a result of Lakeland. I’m not saying there hasn’t been any; but, there has been no proof. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.
Bentley defames himself with all his lies and shenanigans (kicking, kneeing, etc.). And Banov and all the others defame themselves in looking past this. I’m merely pointing out the error.
Intellectualism can get us into trouble. We must love people, and we must love truth. When we love truth alone, it turns to intellectualism. When we love both, we have mercy and grace, while still being zealous for the truth… yet also for people.
It is my love for people that causes me to do this. I want people to see the Truth in Lakeland/Bentley and company. There are many who are being led astray by this. I understand you disagree with me; and, truly that saddens me for you seem like a nice guy. However, the Biblical Truth is the Biblical Truth. God is not a man that He should lie. These guys are liars who are backing up a liar. I do not back up liars. I hold to the Truth.
We judge the spirit of what was said, gracefully understanding that humans don’t always communicate perfectly, and they also may have differing perspectives just as I have shared here.
Yes, I did judge the spirit of what was said; and, by God’s word it is antichrist!
Humans will never communicate perfectly; but, God always does. His Word is the plumbline. No one has to believe what I say; but, all should measure the words of myself or anyone else by the Word of God. New Agers have a ‘different perspective.’ Do you think we should embrace them?
John,
Here’s a question which will get to the crux of this matter: Do you agree with the Manifest Sons of God doctrine? If so, can you define why you ascribe to it using scripture as your basis?
As far as your last paragraph above, I’m working on a response to this as I respond to thenonconformer.
July 3, 2008 at 11:59 am
More Lakeland Evaluation: The Commissioning « The Peacebringer Musings
[…] The pride of life is very clear and prominent in what was proclaimed over Mr. Bentley. The very mention of government being established, setting things in proper order, pouring out a higher level of discernment, and new relationships open gates to the future all speak to Mr. Bentley being commissioned as someone “special.” And if you even begin to have an understanding of foundational beliefs and doctrines at the center, it is even clearer. However, looking at the plain straight sentences the core of pride of life is very hard to ignore. If you doubt it, check out this blog article on George Barnov’s declarations over Mr. Bentley: https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/01/george-banovs-blasphemous-prophecy-at-todd-bentleys-ordinat…. […]
July 3, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Lee
John,
We can receive a double portion anointing as Elisha did.
The NIV text note on 2 Kings 1:9 reads:
Elisha was not expressing a desire for a ministry twice as great as Elijah’s, but he was using terms derived from inheritance law to express his desire to carry on Elijah’s ministry. Inheritance law assigned a double portion of a father’s possessions to the firstborn son.
According to 1 Kings 19:21 Elisha was then and continued to be his ‘attendant.’ Elisha was asking to be Elijah’s successor.
Also, as I pointed out in my post, there’s only one true ‘anointing’ — the indwelling Holy Spirit. John points out [1 John 2:27] there is a ‘counterfeit.’ I do believe the term ‘anointing’ has become overused and now (as mbaker suggested to me) it appears to be synonymous with ‘gifting.’ I think it best to try to use more precise words so as not to be miscontrued.
July 3, 2008 at 12:36 pm
ChriS
You guys are out of control…I can’t even begin to comment every comment generates the desire to share my opinion. Start a new post and stay on track…Lee- John could answer your questions if you could stay on point but with the majority of your comments you add a little more.
The problem with these comments comes down to arrogance, in all humility when you guys bash “Fuller” that tells me you are coming at this from with far more “pride” than you are compassion. If a brother is in error go to them, have you written Todd Bentley a certified letter? Do you have compassion?
BTW, George Banov is Georgian Banov…get his name right. Also no one in my circle of believers who heard his prophecy took it at all to mean…Todd Bently was Jesus or The Christ.
Jesus…fully man and fully God sent all believers an annointing we call Him Holy Spirit. No one that I know of who has been to Lakeland is calling Todd Bentley anything other than a vessel God is using. Now there are gifts/giftings. Paul tells Timothy to stir up the gifts that were imparted to you by the laying on of hands. Georgian was not in anyway call Bentley the Messiah…he was calling out his gifts to accomplish many of the same works Jesus accomplished and that Jesus told us as believer to do also…greater works.
July 3, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Polycarp
All of you have to read this really cool book: “The Shack” it explains all of the Bible so well! These little wild fires are distracting you all: No one should post again until they’ve read it! Chris, Lee, John, Layla, Nonconformer, tim, and Kim! Can’t we all get along?
July 3, 2008 at 12:57 pm
mbaker
John,
In your comment above about the words God is alleged to have said to Banov regarding Bentley, you said:
“To hear that and presume that someone is calling Todd God is to radically misunderstand. Then, to defame someone based on this is tragic.”
No one has personally defamed Bentley, other than calling out his false teachings and expecting him to be accountable. That’s not defamation but giving truth in information. You certainly expect to hear the real facts brought out on the news, why not in the church?
You also said:
“You call something heretical, while someone else who loves truth and God would be on the other end of the spectrum. How do you suggest we handle this?”
We call something heretical after examining it against the truth of the Bible, in proper context. Most folks in the church today agree that Latter Rain is heretical teaching. Because you belong to a branch that obviously doesn’t accept some of the official positions of the mainstream church. despite their denial, (and I say this after checking out your website), does not mean that you can subjectively claim it as truth for the rest of us, simply because you personally believe it is so.
That is the difference in folks supposedly being on opposite ends of the spectrum, yet still loving the Lord. One believes in subjective truth based upon how they look at christianity through the lens of personal experience and/or feelings. The other is objective truth, which is God’s, and outside the realm of man or the whims of man to change. Let’s just for a moment judge Him by your criteria. He has given very strict guidelines for his people, and consequences for disobeying Him. Do you think He’s unloving because He will condemn non-believers to hell even though they might be loving people?
I would also remind you that the scripture tells us to love the Lord with all our minds as well. Because someone isn’t as emotional as another doesn’t mean they are without love for people. I happen to know Lee’s heart on this matter, and I know it is out of love for the whole body that he is expressing his concern that this revival is misleading folks.
I can assure you it is my loving concern for other folks who are being deceived by false teachings that keeps me blogging, and others here as well. We do not receive any pay or “love” offerings as you may in your ministry, nor credit for our time here, or on other blogs. We simply don’t want folks to be misled by things that have the appearance of godliness but deny the power therein.
I love the church, and I hate seeing division, but division is not caused by intellectualism. It is caused by lack of truth in practice, as well as in theology. We want to do our way, and believe our opinions of things rather than sometimes face the unerring truth of scripture.
As the Bible points out being double minded makes folks unstable in all their ways. Please understand that I am in no way insinuating this is what you are personally doing, but scripture does point out what both denial, not practicing what we preach, and double mindedness can do to anyone’s Christian walk. Unfortunately, as much as I hate to see it happening, I believe the Bentley revival is made up of all these things.
July 3, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Lee
ChriS,
By all means come here and criticize. Show us how ‘in control’ you are. Where did I NOT answer John’s questions to your satisfaction?
The problem with these comments comes down to arrogance, in all humility when you guys bash “Fuller” that tells me you are coming at this from with far more “pride” than you are compassion. If a brother is in error go to them, have you written Todd Bentley a certified letter? Do you have compassion?</i.
You mistake the Matthew 18:15 passage which says if a brother sins against you you go to him, etc. While I personally have not sent a letter to Bentley for all his lies and shenanigans, I know some who have. But, I’m not really here to ‘judge’ Bentley so much as to point out the false teachings and to test the spirits. We are all scripturally told to do this. Since Lakeland/Bentley, et al fail this, then I’m warning others.
I do appreciate your ‘humility.’
BTW, I’ve seen Banov’s name as George or Georgian. And, for the record, Todd spells his last name with an ‘e’ as in Bentley.
July 3, 2008 at 12:58 pm
cheryl U.
Polycarp,
I haven’t read The Shack myself. However, I have read lengthy quotes from it. If the quotes are correct, and I have no reason to doubt that they are not, the God that speaks in it is a very different God than the one described in the Bible. I don’t believe it explains anything well, it only confuses some very weighty matters greatly.
And there is no way we can all get along so long as severe error is so prevalent in the Church. Jesus and the Apostles didn’t “get along” with those who were teaching things contrary to Scripture. Why should we be expected to?
July 3, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Lee
Polycarp,
Why would anyone of us want to read a non-Christian book to ‘learn the Bible’ as you say?
The Word of God — its unerring Truths — divides.
July 3, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Jon
Lee unfortunately all your responses are based on “your” interpretation of Scripture. Your foundation is not Scripture, but yourself and how you interpret it.
There is no truth to the accusations you are making against Todd Bentley. I pray that your eyes would be opened to all you are missing in the Holy Spirit.
Am I saying everything Todd Bentley does or has ever done is correct? No, I have not seen everything, what I have seen has been done with integrity, with the power of God, with humility and with a focus on Jesus Christ and Him being worshipped.
Also unless you have any experience with healing, miracles, prophecy, resurrections, encounters with God, etc you have no right to make a judgement. YOu have no experience with which to even judge or speak to others about. Until you are doing the works of Jesus your interpretation of Scripture is worth little.
Your Kingdom of God is based your talk, the one in the Bible is based on power. I pray your eyes would be opened to the more that God has for you!
I agree as well everyone should read “The Shack” great book on intimacy with God and healing of hurts!
July 3, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Lee
Jon,
Let’s just take one example regarding Bentley’s lies — his tattoos. Now, first off, let me say that I could care less if he was covered head to toe in tattoos BEFORE his conversion. If he gets tattoos after his conversion I would have to wonder why; but, it would not be very troubling for me.
What IS concerning is the fact that his accounts of just WHEN he got those tattoos has differed. He has gone on record as saying he got all his tattoos before his conversion. However, if one looks at YouTube videos from a few years ago, it is apparent that he has far less tattoos.
See here:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/why-is-todd-bentley-lying-to-the-media-about-his-tattoos/
So, which is it? Did God tell Bentley to get his tattoos, did he have them all pre-conversion, or did he have only a few pre-conversion? Or what?
July 3, 2008 at 1:21 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
And what exactly is you interpretation of Scripture based on? Do you think you have every right to make the correct interpretation but the rest of us don’t? Honestly, God tells all of us in the Word to judge all things, and to test the Spirits. It most certainly NEVER says that we have to experience everything another is teaching or preaching before we are eligible to make a decision about it.
And, as I said to Polycarp, from what I know of the book, “The Shack”, it is a great deception, not a great truth. If one’s theology is influenced by such sources, I don’t see how it can help but be confused.
July 3, 2008 at 1:23 pm
John Burton
ok. Lets consider this quote:
That is the difference in folks supposedly being on opposite ends of the spectrum, yet still loving the Lord. One believes in subjective truth based upon how they look at christianity through the lens of personal experience and/or feelings.
I am a “Word person” just as you are. It is inappropriate to ever violate scripture.
It is possible for two Word based believers to disagree, right?
That’s my question: How do you handle it when two people who interpret certain scripture differently disagree?
I made the point previously that every good, solid Bible college on the planet holds to differing views on non-absolutes of scripture.
Is there only one of those schools that’s not heretical? Is it possible to disagree and still be brothers and sisters? I’m not talking about an eccumenical idea here- I’m simply affirming that it’s possible to have differing views.
There are many different ideas on the sabbath, communion, tongues, tithing, extra-biblical happenings, etc.
How do you handle that?
Can two Bible scholars who love God deeply have differing viewpoints?
July 3, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Lee
Regarding Fuller Theological Seminary, are you aware that this institution has embrace ecumenism in its zeal to build bridges to Islam? See here:
Click to access fullpageadbold18.pdf
Scroll down to the bottom of this page to see the list of promoters.
The pdf came from here:
http://www.acommonword.com/
July 3, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Lee
mbaker,
Your post @ 12:57pm was well stated. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
July 3, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Lee
Jon,
Lee unfortunately all your responses are based on “your” interpretation of Scripture. Your foundation is not Scripture, but yourself and how you interpret it.
Then, please show me your interpretation to the passage(s) you believe I’ve misinterpreted.
July 3, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Jon
Where has he gone on record as saying they were before he was saved? I have never seen that. As far as I have heard him, most were after he was saved.
The quote is from a phone interview from the Charlotte Observer….could they not have misrepresented him. I hardly find this a credible source….I want to see some real evidence.
I also don’t know how many tattoos he had before and after, but yes it appears he has quite a few after being saved….maybe most of them are not visible and he doesn’t show them because they were from before he was saved.
Wearing a shirt that says “Jesus gave me my tattoos” has nothing to do with a statement about how he got them….it’s a t-shirt :o). He must just like to wear it.
Besides you changed the subject…we were talking about Bible interpretation :o) God bless you Lee. May God’s full intentions for your life be manifest and come to pass!!
July 3, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Jon
Cheryl,
Assuming you have read “The Shack” I would find it hard for any believer who has an intimiate relationship with God to not recognize the truth. Is it totally 100% accurate in every sentence…No just like any man-written book, but it has some very good stuff on it about intimacy with God, forgiveness and healing of past hurts.
My interpretation of Scripture is based on historical-grammatical interpretation. Is mine right and yours wrong? No I didn’t say that. What I am saying is that you are claiming Todd Bentley is in error, but you are doing so not on the word of God, but what you think it says.
What if you’re wrong? I know you could ask the same question and I have asked it and considered the consequences and spent much time in prayer and study of Scripture to check out what is going on in Lakeland. At this point it has passed the test.
July 3, 2008 at 1:35 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
You also said, “Until you are doing the works of Jesus your interpretation of Scripture is worth little.”
What all of us would like to know is when “doing the works of Jesus” came to include kicking an old lady in the face with your biker boot because the Holy Spirit told you to so people would be healed, beating a crippled ladies legs up and down on the floor like a baseball bat, again because the Spirit supposedly told him too, slamming a Pastor across the room so hard his tooth popped out, or kneeing or punching (don’t remember which) a person with stage IV colon cancer in the gut to heal him? And when did doing the works of Jesus come to include pronouncing a man healed of cancer who died a few days later of that very same cancer? Sounds like Bentley is hearing from someone other than the God talked about in the Bible because non of these actions fit His profile at all!
These are only a small portion of the reasons lots of us are very concerned about this man.
July 3, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Lee
Jon,
Besides you changed the subject…we were talking about Bible interpretation :o) God bless you Lee. May God’s full intentions for your life be manifest and come to pass!!
I didn’t change the subject — I wanted to point out that Bentley has lied in response to your comment:
There is no truth to the accusations you are making against Todd Bentley.
I’m still waiting on your correction re: my Bible interpretation.
Thanks for your blessings; and, may Jehovah God richly bless you with His Wisdom!
July 3, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Lee
Jon,
The Shack is steeped in New Age teachings:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2302.cfm
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/06/shack-its-new-age-leaven.html
It promotes pantheism.
July 3, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Jon
Sorry, Lee I didn’t see your next post when I posted!
July 3, 2008 at 1:44 pm
mbaker
Jon,
You said:
“Also unless you have any experience with healing, miracles, prophecy, resurrections, encounters with God, etc you have no right to make a judgement. YOu have no experience with which to even judge or speak to others about. Until you are doing the works of Jesus your interpretation of Scripture is worth little.
Your Kingdom of God is based your talk, the one in the Bible is based on power.”
Oh now, we have the gospel of Jon replacing what the word of God says? The Bible says nothing about Christians being judged on whether we persoanlly perform signs and wonders. That is an elitist radical charismatic fringe view that is compromising he integrity of the rest of us in the church who also believe in the gifts, but believe they should be done decently and in order. They are supposed to be for the edification of the entire church, and for the equipping of the saints for ministry, according to Ephesians 4, not for personal power displays or to make us superior in ministry to others.
I suggest you quit watching so much Todd Bentley and get back into the word of God, because the Bible is based upon God’s testimony,(that’s why they call it testaments).
July 3, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Jon
Well you shared about 1 John 4 and the contrast of “anointings.” First of all there is no mention of the “indwelling” of the Spirit in this passage. (Though certainly is it throughout other Scriptures). And then changed Christ in Matthew 24 to “anointing” to make a point. (That may not have been an interpretation but an example.).
Neverthless I see 1 John 4 as confirming the ministry of Todd Bentley. The test in 1 John 4 is whether or not the “spirit” acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I would say at this point that Todd Bentley passes. He clearly teaches that Jesus came in the flesh, lived a sinless life, died as a subsitutionary atonement for our sins and rose again on the third day.
The spirit of the antichrist it says will not acknowledge this about Jesus. That is the only example of I see on this site.
July 3, 2008 at 1:51 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
” What I am saying is that you are claiming Todd Bentley is in error, but you are doing so not on the word of God, but what you think it says.”
Yes, I suppose I am. However, obviously you are basing your belief’s on Todd on what you think the Bible says too. For a very many of us, we have weighed seriously what Todd has taught and done against that very same Word and and he has failed the test very miserably.
As to the Shack, if you read my response to Polycarp, you know I said I haven’t read the book, only extensive quotes from it. The people that protray the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in those quotes often bear little resemblance to the God revealed in the Bible. At times, things they say flat out contradict the Word of God. It might have some “good stuff” in it, but if it is also containing outright contradictions to truth, the bad far outweighs the good, in my opinion. That is the way deception often gets in, truth mixed with error so people tend to miss it.
July 3, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Tim H
Chris,
The problem with these comments comes down to arrogance, in all humility when you guys bash “Fuller” that tells me you are coming at this from with far more “pride” than you are compassion. If a brother is in error go to them, have you written Todd Bentley a certified letter? Do you have compassion?
I heard an interview recently on a radio show with a few men who know Todd Bently, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and many of the other “leaders” of the current “move” personally and had even spent time in their homes.
This current “move” is not new, it is the same exact issues that came out of the Toronto Blessing, KC Prophets, Brownsville and the same correction has been given to these men in person, in letter, in every form possible and they still follow the error that was brought before them.
Yes they have been approached many times in private by many people and I am sure they have received many e-mails of the error since then.
July 3, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Jon
C mon Mbaker…:o) Let’s not be rude…
If we go back to the Word of God we find everything that is going on in Lakeland or Redding, or in Mozambique in Iris Ministries, etc.
July 3, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Tim H
Jon,
I know you could ask the same question and I have asked it and considered the consequences and spent much time in prayer and study of Scripture to check out what is going on in Lakeland. At this point it has passed the test.
Share the scriptures that prove to you that Lakeland has passed the test, please….
July 3, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Jon
Cheryl,
What about spitting on someone’s eyes? What about spitting in someone’s mouth? What about blowing on people? What about sticking fingers in ears? Jesus did all kinds of ‘crazy” things when He healed.
Now kicking in the face, yes is far out, I haven’t seen it so I can’t judge it for sure. I know Smith Wigglesworth did many extreme things when God used him to heal others and raise people from the dead.
You don’t consider Smith Wigglesworth a heretic do you?
July 3, 2008 at 1:56 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
Also, just for the record, many people who oppose Todd are pentecostal/charismatic who believe in all of the gifts of the Spirit for today. I am one of those. Still doesn’t mean for an instant that I believe that is what qualifies one as being able to judge this.
July 3, 2008 at 2:02 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
Jesus may have done “all kinds of crazy things” BUT they were not violent things done to heal people. There is a huge difference there. And Todd actually said God told him the reason poeple were not being healed was because he hadn’t kicked an old lady in the face with his boot. He said he argued with God about it but God insisted he do it. Does that sound like the God of the Bible to you? And just because Smith Wigglesworth did something in the past certainly doesn’t prove that it is the right thing to do.
July 3, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Jon
Cheryl,
As far as “The Shack” totally different subject. Not even sure the guy who wrote the Shack would like Todd Bentley :o), but both being slammed in the same blog, wow!
I think you should read the book in whole and not pull out snippets or quotes out of context to know whether or not it is in opposition to Scripture.
If you improperly read the book I think there is one section where if you don’t understand it, it looks like it teaches that “all roads” lead to Jesus and heaven, but really that is not what is said in the context of the book. It says “most roads don’t lead anywhere” which is consistent with Scripture…leading to desctruction is nowhere (not saying hell does not exist….but see the point of the quote)
That is just one example. If you’re afraid of it, then by all means don’t read it, but don’t slam it like others do on Amazon without truly considering it.
As far as Lakeland, etc, then we just must agree to disagree. I know my acceptance of Lakeland is based on my interpretation of Scripture. I am fine with that. I believe in signs and wonders and miracles for today. I believe in the anointing of God being transferable (I think this is one of the lost keys and foundations of the church along with baptisms, faith, repentance, resurrection of the dead, etc in Hebrews 6). I believe in miraculous healing. I believe in speaking in tongues. I believe in the prophetic gifting. If you don’t that is your choice and your interpretation.
I am not saying that my interpretation is the only way. If I did I was in error. Please forgive me.
My problem is you are saying that Lakeland is violating the word of God. I am saying it is violating not the Word of God, but your intepretation and at that we have nowhere to go but to disagree and honor each other.
So I honor you. May you be blessed in all you do and may the Holy Spirit lead you into all Truth (not mine or yours but His).
July 3, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Lee
You don’t consider Smith Wigglesworth a heretic do you?
Yes, I do along with Branham. It all comes down to doctrine. What do they believe? Signs and wonders are no proof of God as Satan can and will do signs and wonders.
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. [2 Thess 2:9-12 NIV]
Note that it is God who sends the strong delusion. I believe it will be through Satan.
July 3, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Jon
Tim H.
It would be easier for you to bring up Scriptures where it doesn’t.
First look at all the ecstatic encounters with God that people had in the Bible. Include Isaiah walking naked, etc. and you will see this does not violate any of those.
Check Acts, where all the miracles signs and wonders are happening.
Go to Galatians 3:5 where God works miracles among His church
Go to John 14:12.
Go to 1 Corinthians 12-14 (Yes it passes the I Cor 13 test, too)
The Gospels….the example of how were are to live as empowered believers just as Jesus did His miracles by the HOly Spirit
July 3, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Tim H
“Also unless you have any experience with healing, miracles, prophecy, resurrections, encounters with God, etc you have no right to make a judgement.
What!!!!!
July 3, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Jon
Lee,
Then we agree to disagree. Will not argue with you on Branham…He certainly was heretical, started out seemingly good, but finished WAY off track. I truly hope he repented and got right with God, although I leave whether or not he knew the Lord to our God, the righteous judge.
Yes I agree, signs and miracles are no confirmation that someone is from God or not. I was just trying to get a reference point of where Cheryl was in her life and perspective.
Smith Wigglesworth is one who lived his whole life in integrity to what he believed and walked in it. Others like Branham may have started with promise but finished poorly so I usually don’t us ethem for making points. Most I thought considered Smith W. to be a minister of the Lord, but wrong again! :o)
July 3, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Lee
Jon,
I believe in the anointing of God being transferable (I think this is one of the lost keys and foundations of the church along with baptisms, faith, repentance, resurrection of the dead, etc in Hebrews 6). I believe in miraculous healing. I believe in speaking in tongues. I believe in the prophetic gifting. If you don’t that is your choice and your interpretation.
Then, what do you make of the apostle John’s reference to a ‘counterfeit’ anointing in 1 John 2:27?
I believe in everything else you cited there; but, I’ve yet to see a resurrection of the dead and none of Bentley’s have been proven. I know if it were me who was resurrected I would be onstage with proof in hand to proclaim God’s sovereign power!
However, I have seen, and I myself am evidence of one type of resurrection miracle — salvation in Jesus Christ’s shed blood on the cross.
July 3, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Lee
Jon,
Are you aware that Bentley claims Branham’s healing angel/s as providing his healing power? On that alone Bentley is a heretic.
July 3, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Jon
Tim H.
I stand corrected. You have the right to make any judgement. It just doesn’t mean much if you haven’t walk in the realm of the supernatural….once you go there you’ll never see the world the same :o). Sorry I am not trying to be rude. Forgive me for making it too blunt.
In other words you are trying to make judgments about riding a bike and what it’s like and whether someone is doing it right without ever having put your rear end on the seat…..If that is the case for you, it may not be, like Cheryl here who knows the stuff but still has problems
July 3, 2008 at 2:13 pm
cheryl U.
Jon,
By the way, it was someone that came on here that had not been a part of the conversation at all and brought up the subject of The Shack. He very blatantly said it explains the Bible very well and that everyone should cease to comment here until they went out and read The Shack. THAT is why it has been “slammed” here.
July 3, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Jon
Lee,
Branham ended with heresy, doesn’t mean the gift he first had was not from God. So I have no problem with that.
I do think it means Todd Bentley must carefully keep his advisers close to guard him from the mistakes of those in the past who walked in great miracles and healing gifts.
July 3, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Jon
Cheryl, sorry I thought you brought it up! Check it out for yourself as the Lord leads you….
July 3, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Lee
Jon,
Regarding Smith Wigglesworth:
For he shall bring many sons and daughters unto glory–unto son-likeness, son-perfection” (Wigglesworth, “The Privileges of Sonship,” August 1924, reprinted in The Anointing of His Spirit, p. 221). This is very similar to the false Manifest Sons of God theology of the perfectibility of certain saints, and it is the same heresy as that taught today by Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and other Word-Faith teachers. Again, it is a confusion of this present life with that which is to come. They would mock this statement, claiming that my problem is unbelief and spiritual blindness, but the fact remains that they cannot do the miracles that Christ performed. The Lord Jesus Christ never conducted a healing crusade and He never took up an offering before He performed His signs and wonders. He did not have any rock music to stir up the crowd. He did not laugh hysterically or stagger about like a drunk man. He could raise the dead and heal every sickness without fail. No Pentecostal preacher has ever been able to do this.
From here:
http://www.solcon.nl/apgeelhoed/htmldoc/nb-smithwigglesworth.htm
July 3, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Jon
Lee,
I agree there is a false anointing as you reference in 1 John 2:27 (counterfeit)
July 3, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Lee
Jon,
Regarding Branham’s ‘gift’ being from God:
Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. [1 John 2:18-20 NIV]
July 3, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Jon
I am honestly not familiar too much with what Hagin and Copeland taught on that subject.
I think Todd Bentley or Smith would say that none of them is Jesus so that is why. I don’t think any of these men mentioned would claim to be able to heal without fail. There’s more to press into than what we’ve seen, so I am going to keep pressing into the Holy Spirit until He releases and lead us more and more to the level of miracles that He wants the church to live in just like in the book of Acts.
July 3, 2008 at 2:22 pm
mbaker
Jon,
It was not my intention to be rude, but to call you on your unwarranted personal attack, and false assumptions. You sound like an intelligent guy. I think you are capable of much better arguments than that.
All we’re asking is a scriptural argument for the case you’re making that Todd Bentley’s revival is the real thing. You’ve quoted one scripture which you apparently use to judge the whole thing. While that is certainly an important test, I will remind you that even demons recognize Jesus as the son of God, so that’s not the only criteria to prove something is from God. Neither are signs and wonders. Satan, scripture tells us can also counterfeit those as well.
I’m interested in how you judge whether personal revelation, which is the subject of this post, is from God. What is your specific biblical criteria?
July 3, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Jon
Lee, your right about Branham that is possible. I am not denying it—If it wasn’t from God, yes that Scripture is a good example. If it was you may have to use Hebrews 6 for him falling away from faith…..if you believe in that sort of thing :o)
July 3, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Jon
As far as Georgians’ statement and use of Isaiah 53 I think it was a little strange…the other Scripture I am fine with the reading of Isaiah 53 over him I didn’t quite understand. I think it probably should have been clarified. Psalm 45 is a reference to Jesus (as quoted in Hebrews), but in the Psalms and context of it there I think it could be something that God would want to release on anyone as He pleases.
July 3, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Jon
M Baker, thanks I appreciate that.
I referenced some others if you could check them out above.
July 3, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Lee
Jon,
Branham was an early adopter of the Latter Rain teachings and Bentley has gone on record as saying that Lakeland is about angels and he refers to 1948 ‘where it all started’ which is when Branham began his ‘ministry.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2rHfRpvyU
I’ve transcribed the audio:
This thing’s gonna break out… …now, now just wait up here in Shrevesport [not sure if this the city he’s referring to]… …I’m releasing it back… …to where it all started in 1948, I’m releasin’ it back. Now for some of you that are here, it doesn’t really matter to you — all that stuff. All you really care about is God’s moving and, ya know what, that’s all that really matters; so, if you’re not big on prophetic, supernatural and angels, I’m sorry. It’s my testimony. But, if you wanna know why God’s moving, I have to tell you the whole story and if you don’t believe the story…well, sorry. Ya know, I told the Lord “Why can’t I just move in healing and forget talking about all that other stuff”
He said, “Because Todd you gotta get the people to believe in the angel.”
I said, “God, why do I want people to believe in the angel, isn’t it about gettin’ the people to believe in Jesus?”
He said, “But the people already believe in Jesus; but, the church doesn’t believe in the supernatural.”
The church has no problem believing in Jesus; but, what we don’t believe in is the supernatural. We don’t believe in angels. We don’t believe in the prophetic. We don’t believe in some of what’s goin’ on. And, I’ll tell you what. We need to have an awakening.
I said, “Well God, maybe you want to give this ministry to somebody else because nobody’s gonna receive it in the package that I come in.
I said, “You gotta give me the most controversial testimony. You gotta visit me with all this supernatural stuff. I mean hey, maybe if I was a little more clean shaven, polished, people would believe me more.”
Or maybe, the world is looking for something new. How many of you believe we need something new?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2rHfRpvyU
July 3, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Jon
Here is something more to consider as you all continue to weigh and pray about Lakeland or any claimed move of God. An article I wrote.
As we as the people of God move to embrace the move of the Holy Spirit, we must be prepared to remove any hindrance that could block us from receiving the full promise that He has for us. There is a difference between just recognizing the move of God and totally embracing it! We must be ones who embrace the move of the Spirit! Whenever God does something new there are always those who miss it! Even sincere followers of God have missed past moves of God because they did not embrace the move of the Holy Spirit. I for one don’t want to be one of those people!
The Lord led me to a passage of Scripture which helps illustrate this. In John 6, Jesus has been talking about some radical new things for His day and some people are finding them hard to accept. He has said that He is the bread of life, He is the bread that comes down from heaven and He even says that if you don’t eat of His flesh or drink His blood that you have no life in you! This is something new and shocking to the people of that day and their response is seen below:
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. John 6:60-66 NIV
The first thing to notice here is that the ones having a problem with Jesus are not the Pharisees or religious leaders who normally opposed him. No, this time it’s some of His own disciples. These are ones who have been following Jesus. One of the saddest verses in the Bible is verse 66 which says that some of those disciples turned back and missed out on the rest of what Jesus did on earth! They missed the rest of the move of God because of one main thing: they took offense.
There are many offenses that can hinder us from embracing the move of the Spirit but I want us to focus on three. The first offense that we must avoid is the offense of the unfamiliar. Just as the people in Jesus’ day were unfamiliar with some of the things He was doing and sharing with them, we must not let the unfamiliar hinder us from embracing His move. Whether it’s someone laughing, weeping, shaking, shouting or oil appearing on hands, we must not judge by whether or not we are familiar with it.
God is mysterious and we must allow Him to manifest His work and presence however He wants! He will of course never violate the Bible with any of it. He will do things, though, that are not mentioned specifically in the Bible as long as they do not go against anything said in Scripture (and some of these unfamiliar things are actually in the Bible!). Many can become offended because of these unfamiliar things that the Holy Spirit does and unfortunately miss what God is doing!
The second offense is the offense of the uncomfortable. Many of the things that the Holy Spirit does can at first make us uncomfortable. The first time I saw someone fall down under the power of the Holy Spirit it made me a little uncomfortable, but over time and growing in intimacy with the Holy Spirit, I am comfortable with much, much more! Just because something makes us uncomfortable does not mean that it is not from God. The Holy Spirit is called “The Comforter” for a reason; that reason being we won’t always feel that way, but He is the one that confirms the work of God in our hearts. We must never allow something that is uncomfortable to push us away from what the Holy Spirit is doing.
The third offense is the offense of the mind. As the Holy Spirit moves He will do things that will be offensive to our earthly understanding. He will do things that may offend our minds. It is because our understanding, especially in western culture, is slanted against the supernatural and heavily reliant upon our minds. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will do things that we cannot understand with our minds. We must not become offended and resist what God is doing in these times.
The proper way for us to live is to have our spirit joined with the Holy Spirit as the master of our minds. Then our minds are not in charge, but are being renewed by the Holy Spirit within us. The spirit is supposed to be the master of the mind, not the other way around. As long as our mind is the master, the work of God will be limited in our lives. Am I saying shut off our minds? No. But I am saying we must learn to think in a new way having a mind renewed by the Holy Spirit, and then we will have the mind of Christ.
When this happens we will be able to tell whether something is of God or not. The Holy Spirit within us will speak to us to let us know whether or not what is going on is good. With this proper alignment of ourselves we are better able to discern the work of the Holy Spirit from the work of the enemy.
All these offenses are rooted in fear. Fear is not from God. Fear can keep us from embracing something good that God has for us. The move of the Holy Spirit that God is releasing on the earth right now is good! We must embrace every part of it!
The Bible says not to be deceived (Colossians 2:4; 1 Thessalonians 2:3; also see 1 John 4:1-6). It never says we should fear being deceived. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will be able to tell when the Holy Spirit is doing something in a person, a restaurant or a worship gathering. Do not let fear hold you back from embracing the move of the Holy Spirit!
One other truth to be aware of is that there will always be religious people who criticize the move of the Holy Spirit. Don’t listen to them! Jesus was accused of being demon-possessed and of casting out demons because he had the prince of demons Beelzebub (John 7:20; Matthew 12:24). Any true work of God will always be said to be the work of the devil by the religious people. Don’t let this place dear or doubt in your heart.
There is much more that could be said on this, but for now I want to close with part of what Jesus says in John 6:63, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing…” This is really what is happening. For too long we as the people of God have relied on our own human effort, our flesh, our religious traditions and structures instead of the Spirit of God. Only the Holy Spirit gives life. My effort or pattern for how God works really counts for nothing. As we learn to just get close to Jesus by His Spirit we will find ourselves so open to embrace anything that the Holy Spirit does! Come Holy Spirit wash away our offense, wash away our defenses and give us the ability to embrace Your move!
July 3, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Lee
Jon,
If it was you may have to use Hebrews 6 for him falling away from faith…..if you believe in that sort of thing :o)
I believe that once you are saved you are always saved as Ephesians 1:13 and 2 Cor. 1:21-22 make clear.