“FAITH UNDONE” by Roger Oakland
the emerging church…a new formation or an end-time deception
One would be hard-pressed to find a more complete description of the various end-time deceptions currently exploding in our churches in one single paperback book. Roger has accomplished this feat in “Faith Undone”.
Why is his book so relevant today? Consider this statement. “In the near future, Christians of every denomination will have to decide whether to support or reject the spirituality behind the emerging church.”
Here are some of the topics he covers in his 13 chapters.
- Emerging Spirituality
- Mysticism
- Post-Modernism
- Labryinths
- Contemplative Spirituality
- Yoga
- The “Eucharistic” Christ
- Purpose Driven Ecumenism
- The Kingdom of God on Earth
- The New Reformation
From Chapter 1 – A New Kind of Church
“It is not the ambience of the emerging church that causes me to write this book. It is the theological underpinnings….But is this ‘new reformation’ actually the way God has instructed us to go?… A new form of Christianity will replace faith with a faith that says man can find his own path to God and create a perfect kingdom of God here on the earth. The Word will become secondary to a system of works and rituals driven by ancient mystical practices.” (pp. 12-13)
This last sentence “The Word will become secondary to a system of works and rituals driven by ancient mystical practices”, is so very true of every deceptive practice being introduced into the church and the world today. This falls in line with occultist Alice Bailey who said “the teachings of the East and of the West must be fused and blended before the true and universal religion could appear on earth”.* When the church embraces occult teachings, we have to come to our senses and take notice of what is happening right in front of our eyes. The Bible warns of this deception but people do not want to listen.
Roger also says:
“This book does not attempt to identify every key player in the emerging church movement. There are too many…my objective is not to attack individuals but rather to unveil a belief system. Thus, this is not a book out to get the bad guys. On the contrary, it is a book that seeks to rescue those involved with the emerging church and countless others heading in that direction.”
“In the near future, Christians of every denomination will have to decide whether to support or reject the spirituality behind the emerging church. If the emerging church continues unfolding at its present pace, mainstream evangelical Christianity will be restructured so that the biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ will be considered too narrow and too restrictive.” (p.20)
This is happening this very instant and many are totally unaware. This is why Roger’s book is so important. Let’s take a look at some of his other findings. This is from Chapter 6, When West Meets East.
“In the early ’80s, I became aware of a major shift in thinking that was sweeping the Western world. Religious pagan practices of the past, once relegated to a world of darkness, were now being embraced as the ways and means of ushering in an age of enlightenment….Every method and therapy imaginable imported from Hinduism, Buddhism and every form of Eastern mysticism suddenly was in vogue. The age of enlightenment had arrived, we were told.” (p.93)
This cannot be more true. Think back even farther when the Beatles swept in from England in the mid 60’s. They themselves delved into Hinduism and Transcendental Meditation because of George Harrison’s fascination with the East. The baby-boomers of today are already familiar with these practices so it is no wonder that it is not a stretch for them to readily accept yoga and meditation into their life. What does Roger have to say about this?
“Today it is becoming increasingly common to hear about churches promoting Christian yoga or Christian leaders suggesting the best way to enhance one’s prayer life is by getting in tune with God through repeating a mantra. What was once described as New Age and occultic is acceptable now in some Christian circles. ”
“Anyone who cares to do the research will find that yoga and its connection to Eastern religion remains the same. Linking oneself with the universal energy is still its goal. A Christian can believe that yoga is for health and well being if he or she wants, but the facts have not changed.”
“Can a Christian incorporate Hindu spiritual practices in order to get closer to the Jesus Christ of the Bible?” (pp. 94,96)
Roger goes on to explain why the answer to this question is NO. But you will have the read the book for the remaining argument. Let’s go on to Rick Warren and some of his extraordinary quotes found in Chapter 9, The Kingdom Of God On Earth.
“Rick Warren’s reformation, which will bring in the Kingdom of God through global cooperation for a common cause, will include Catholics, Muslims, and homosexuals – a combination hardly similar to the 16th century reformation…Rick Warren believes that God has shown him not only the boundaries (or lack of them) of this coming global kingdom, but also the strategy to bring it about. Before Warren came up with the plan, he says he asked Jesus to show him how to reach the world. He explains:” (p.149) (Warren’s comments in red)
RW “Then I said, ‘How did You do it? You wouldn’t have left us without a strategy.’ And I found the answer in a passage in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 where Jesus sends His first followers out…He says, ‘When you go into a village, you find the man of peace in every village, in every government, in every business, in every church.* The man of peace does not have to be a Christian believer. Could be Muslim. Could be Jewish. Because when Jesus said, ‘Find the man of peace, there were no Christians yet. Jesus hadn’t died on the cross. There was no resurrection. He’s just saying, go out and find somebody to work with.” (pp. 149-150)
“Jesus did not say they were to look for a man of peace of every town, Rather he said ‘whatsoever city or town ye shall enter , enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go hence” (Matthew 10:11)…it is important to realize that the criterion for staying in a house was not the greeting of peace itself but whether those in that house received their message.
“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.” (Matthew 10:14)
“Let me speak very boldly here: if we are going to link hands with those who believe in another gospel or no gospel at all for the sake of establishing an earthly, unified kingdom, we will not be building the kingdom of God.” (p.151)
RW “I stand before you confidently right now and say to you that God is going to use you to change the world…I’m looking at a stadium full of people who are telling God they will do whatever it takes to establish God’s Kingdom ‘on earth as it is in heaven.’ What will happen if the followers of Jesus say to Him, ‘We are yours’? What kind of spiritual awakening will occur?” (p. 153)
“What does Warren mean by ‘whatever it takes’?
I am going to advance to Chapter 12, A New Reformation, for the next Rick Warren quote.
“In an article written by Rick Warren, “What Do You Do When Your Church Hits a Plateau?”, Warren told pastors and church leaders not to be discouraged about slow change in their churches. He told them it would take time…and in many cases, it would take these resisters either leaving the church or simply dying. Warren exhorts:” (p.204)
RW “If your church has been plateaued for six months, it might take six months to get it going again. If it’s been plateaued a year, it might take a year. If it has been plateaued for 20 years, you’ve got to set in for the duration. I’m saying people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it’s true. There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, but who will never, ever change.” (p.205)
“By making statements like this, Rick Warren marginalized those who won’t go along with the new reformation that he is hoping for. While Warren doesn’t say that people should kill them, he does say that God may have to end their lives, just like when ‘God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land.'” (p.205)
These are frightening statements and I am sick of Rick but he will have to be dealt with. There is so much more in “Faith Undone”, like Warren telling his followers that the details of Christ’s return are none of our business, (I can’t tell you everything!), but we must move on to the emergents.
There are so many involved in the emergent movement that one needs to go to www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com or http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/ to check out all the names, but Roger gives much attention to Brian McLaren. (blue comment) McLaren was named one of the country’s top 25 “Most Influential Evangelicals” in 2005 by Time magazine.
“In an interview, Brian McLaren questioned the idea of God sending His Son to a violent death, calling it “false advertising for God”:
BL “One of the huge problems is the traditional understanding of hell. Because if the cross is in line with Jesus’ teaching then-I won’t say, the only, and I certainly won’t say the primary–but a primary meaning of the cross is that the kingdom of God doesn’t come like the kingdoms of this world, by inflicting violence and coercing people. But that the kingdom of God comes through suffering and willing, voluntary sacrifice. But in an ironic way, the doctine of hell basically says, no, that’s not really true. That in the end, God gets His way through coercion and violence and intimidation and domination, just like every other kingdom does. The cross isn’t the center then. The cross is almost a distraction and false advertising for God.”
“What an extraordinary example of faith under attack and the consequences of thinking outside the box. If McLaren is right, all those who have ever lived and believed in Christ’s atonement have been misled and wrong. McLaren has taken the freedom to to reconstruct what faith means by distorting the Scripture, or worse yet, saying the opposite of what the inspired Word of God says. This is blasphemy!” (pp.192-193)
I have resisted taking the final comment from Roger’s book from the last chapter, Or An Endtime Deception, even though there are many gems to pick from, and have selected this from p.217
“The emergent reformation, when it comes to fruition, will stand on the side of the line drawn in the sand that says all humanity is One–regardless of religion, beliefs–we are all One. That One-ness will mean one with all creation too, and inevitably with God. This is what the New Age movement is striving for–a time when all of mankind will realize both their unity and divinity–and the Gospel as we know it, according to Scripture, will be no more.”
******************************************
Others mentioned in the book – Alice Bailey, Rob Bell, Ken Blanchard, Marcus Borg, Bob Buford, Tony Campolo, Peter Drucker, Richard Foster, Matthew Fox, Thomas Keating, Dan Kimball, Barbara Marx Hubbard, Erwin McManus, Thomas Merton, Henri Nouwen, Doug Pagitt, Leonard Sweet, and Robert Webber among others.
How is it that this one book can cover so many names and issues? It is because they are all related and together they have one goal and purpose in mind, which is Faith Undone, a must read for every Christian.
Order this book at Lighthouse Trails Publishing.
* Marilyn Ferguson, The Aquarian Conspiracy p.280
* Government, business, church is Druckers 3-legged stool.



74 comments
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December 5, 2007 at 12:59 pm
From the Lighthouse
[…] they have one goal and purpose in mind, which is Faith Undone, a must read for every Christian.Click here to read this entire book review. This article or excerpt was posted on December 5, 2007@ 3:03 am . From: Category: * Emerging […]
December 5, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Lee
Thanks for the overview of this book. I’ve been contemplating buying this for some time now.
The future is now! And, it is scary indeed!
Hold on to your bibles and read them every day.
December 6, 2007 at 5:59 am
Denise
Awesome book. All believers should run to purchase this book!
Oakland does an excellent job exposing the roots of what has become a huge invasion of post modern, Emergent and Contemplative Prayer movements (satanic lie!) in our churches and Christian schools today!
After reading this book, I want to scream, “Believers, wake up!!”
Thanks Mr Oakland–awesome book!
December 6, 2007 at 11:37 pm
James
Roger Oakland does the Church a huge service by so accurately describing what is happening in Churches across America. The Emergent Church doesn’t believe in what the book of Revelation says either. The Emergent Church doesn’t like Bible believing Christians because we believe in the Word of God. Their too busy trying to solve aids and hunger problems, they don’t have time to tell people they need a Savior or that there is one way to heaven and that’s through Jesus. They actually think their going to help bring the Kingdom now on earth. They forget that the kingdom will be set up during and at the end of the book of Revelation
December 7, 2007 at 12:28 am
Lee
James,
I agree with what you’re saying except I believe the leaders know full well that they are trying to bring about a New Age kingdom on earth!
December 7, 2007 at 5:56 am
livingjourney
I am not sure if the leaders know that they are bringing in the New Age into the Church. I often wonder if they are deceived themselves and I believe that this deception is actually sent by God because they did not love the truth. This verse comes to mind…
2Th 2:9-11 The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders, and every type of evil to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
I think that if it is God who has sent this delusion, then it is a delusion that would be close to impossible to break free from. Especially considering that the people caught up in this delusion do not love the truth to start with. The truth is the only thing that can set them free and if they don’t love it then they have no reason to turn from lies.
Strong delusion:
(ἐνέργειαν πλάνης)
Rev., literally and correctly, a working of error. See on working 2Th 2:9 . The phrase is unique in N.T. It means an active power of misleading. For πλάνη error which shows itself in action, see on 1Th 2:3.
Certainly a passage worth studying.
December 7, 2007 at 7:32 am
Stuart Brogden
I bought a box of this book without having read it. Through several sound web sites I have been aided in recognizing the deception that has crept into the church and infected it as a virus. Man pleasing theology and doctrine, spawned from hell and embraced by smiling would-be pastors such as Robert Schuller have intoxicated once-solid preachers and destroyed many young preachers who were eager for success that doesn’t matter.
I have been buying boxes of books to give away over the years. I am being select in who I give this book to. It’s too important to merely hand out. My pastor and 2 other pastor friends have it, more to come.
Praise God for faithful servants who truly love Him and are true to His Word.
December 7, 2007 at 7:51 am
Lee
livingjourney,
I’m very familiar with the 2 Thes 2:9-11 verses; but, I believe it’s followers rather than the leaders who are given the delusion. I certainly could be wrong though.
I do believe the Rick Warren and Robert Schuller as well as a slew of other leaders are well aware of what they’re doing.
December 7, 2007 at 8:12 am
Kim
Stuart,
You not the first i have heard of that is buying quantities of this book. I have most of the books that are offered at Lighthouse.
I have both books by Ray Yungen, “A Time of Departing” and “For Many Shall Come in My Name” I think one should have both books. Also Brian Flynn’s Running Against the Wind, and Kevin Reeves, The Other Side of the River”.
I need to get all these reordered because i want to start handing them out myself. Thank you for this reminder.
December 7, 2007 at 8:16 am
Kim
I just saw a great article somewhere reflecting on the verse:
“For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.”
I will post it….
December 7, 2007 at 8:35 am
livingjourney
Kim that would be great.
December 7, 2007 at 8:48 am
Lee
I bought Kevin Reeves’ book “The Other Side of the River” specifically for someone I know who’s caught up in this deception. Unfortunately, she has cut off all communication with me once she found out I was questioning some the teachings. It was an educational read for me; and, I hope that one day she will see the true light and I will be able to give her the book as a way to comfort her.
December 7, 2007 at 8:49 am
Lee
Kim,
I look forward to your post on the “powerful delusion” article.
December 7, 2007 at 8:51 am
Kim
i just posted it. It may be hard to read because the formatting needs to be changed. I had just found this article and really need to study it myself.
https://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2007/12/07/the-strong-delusion-of-god-by-barry-l-brumfield/
December 7, 2007 at 8:14 pm
James
Churches that seem to have all sorts of programs are the most suspect in my opinion. When Pastors feel pressured to have all sorts of programs to attract and please the masses it is very dangerous thing. Churches should be about helping people understand the Gospel and their need for the Saviour.
It is even worse if Pastors start getting away from the Bible and start using books rather than making the Bible their source of truth. Why would any Pastor want to bring in a Hillary Clinton (like Saddleback) and then applaud her when she stands for gay rights and abortion, and when she was in power with her husband she didn’t even like Christians? Do these Pastors feel that fellowship with darkness is a good thing? These Pastors who do these things don’t study the Bible and that is the saddest thing because they will be held accountable for denying his word.
I’m just glad that Roger Oakland didn’t care who’s toes he stepped on when writing his book.
December 10, 2007 at 6:52 am
Peg
Hey gang…
I understand what y’all are saying, and to be honest it worries me. How can any one person be 100% right (other than Jesus of course) and other people be 100% wrong? Can’t we talk about the issues — taking each issue one at a time — rather than demonizing individuals and writing off every single word they say?
December 10, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Mary
“Savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”
Acts 20:29-30
According to that passage they know what they are doing. But to be honnest, I think there are some who are deceived and deluded by their big egos!
December 10, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Kim
What issue in the Faith Undone book would you like to talk about?
December 11, 2007 at 8:55 am
Peg
Hmmmm…. OK, let’s start with Postmodernism.
“Postmodern” is a buzzword these days so first we need to strip away the hype and find a working definition. As I understand it the term ‘postmodern’ has to do with a rejection of ‘modernism’. Modernism has its historical roots in Cartesian logic (Rene Descartes of “I think therefore I am” fame) and is basically faith in the power of reason.
Since Descartes was doing his philosophy around the same time the Reformation was trying to figure itself out, this “faith in the power of reason” was integrated into much of the theology of the day, particularly Calvinism.
The point of true postmodernism (as opposed to “pop” postmodernism) is that not all knowledge is empirical, that is, you can’t always measure it, count it, or reason it. Postmoderns believe ‘modern’ humanity has made an idol of human reason. They believe that some knowledge — such as the knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, for example, or that miracles happen — cannot be deduced by reason alone.
That’s my understanding of the definition of postmodernism. I haven’t said anything yet about my own personal opinion, I’m just trying to define what it is ‘postmoderns’ believe in. Are there any other definitions anyone would like to consider?
December 11, 2007 at 8:44 pm
jeff
I thought that postmodernism was related to the truth (you use empirical knowledge) and relativism. Maybe that was what you meant.
With that said, people and including some sheperds have rejected the truth for relativism, in order to gain popularity/increase followers.
Breaking down those definitions is great, but when you approach a postmodern person, not all will agree with your definition because they are usually so ingrained with the philosophy of “what it means to you might be different than what it means to me”. Talking with a strong postmodernist about the bible will leave you scratching your head because their interpretation is supposed to be ok, because that’s what they believe regardless of evidence.
Example: using the term too legalistic/legalism. They will use the freedom in Christ way too far to include anything and everything. Another example is fundamentalist. Postmodern churches see fundamentalism of christianity to stuffy/strict. Fundamentalism just means foundational and basic.
I have experienced this speaking to my pastor about cliques in the church. My definition came right out of the dictionary, his meant something totally different- relativism.
December 11, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Kim
What Jeff said is true of postmodernism. “What it means to you might be different than what it means to me”.
There is no absolute truth anymore to the emergent.
From Faith Undone, Oakland says postmodern leaders describe it as:
“…a broad, diverse, and often paradoxical emerging culture defined as having passed through modernity and being ready to move to something better beyond it.”
Brian McLaren says “We are exploring off the map–looking into mysterious territory beyond our familiar world on this side of the river, this side of the ocean…We are looking into an exciting unmapped world on the other side of all we know so far”
Dan Kimball writes “In a post-Christian world, pluralism is the norm.Buddhism, Wicca, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or an eclectic blend – it’s all part o the soil”…”The basis for learning has shifted from logic and rational to the realm of experience and ther mystical. ”
On page 17 Roger Oakland says ” True biblical faith never changes, What Jesus and his disciples offered two thousand years ago is still offered to mankind today”
“Rebellion is always due to one thing–rejecting God’s Word because our own way appeals to us so much more”
Leonard Sweet writes, “Mysticism,once cast to the sidelines of the Christian tradition, is now situated in postmodern culture near the center..Mysticism is metaphysics arrived at through mindbody experiences. Mysticism begins in experience; it ends in theology.”
It is obvious that Roger has all these books in his possession as he quotes from them and….he ties the emergents together by who is endorsing the books. They all endorse each other’s books.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men
December 12, 2007 at 8:47 am
Peg
Folks…. the last two posts have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too many ideas and -isms mixed up in one great big mishmosh. That’s why I’m saying we need to define terms.
Postmodernism is not relativism, which is not emergent-ism, which is not mysticism, which is not purpose-driven-ism, which is not Wiccanism, which is not Hinduism, which is not Islam, etc etc etc.
A church that can’t tell the difference between these things is not a church I want to be a part of. If Oakland is putting all these movements, ideas, and people in the same bucket and painting them all the same color he is doing a great disservice, not only to the church but even more so to the people we are supposed to be reaching out to and ministering to.
Which is better: to teach people to understand others who are different, or to teach them to fear the unknown?
re: postmodernism, I heard a young pastor put it this way today:
The Bible says: “God says ‘I AM'”
The modernist says: “I think therefore I am”
The postmodernist says: “I don’t know who I am”
I can’t think of much that’s sadder than to be walking around this world feeling alone and not knowing who you are or Who you belong to. If this is postmodern life, then as Christians our job is to reach out to people feeling lonely, who need to be cared for, nurtured, welcomed, and given space to find themselves within a Christian community who knows who God is, and who won’t attack them and put them down when they make a few honest mistakes on their road to faith in Jesus.
We need to understand: on judgement day God will not ask “did you believe the right stuff?” or “did you read the right authors?” or “were you a Calvinist (or Armenian)?” He will ask: “when I was hungry, did you feed Me? when I was naked, did you clothe Me? did you visit Me when I was sick and in prison?” We need to be prepared to minister with compassion to people, and meet their needs, whether they believe the right things or not. Jesus commands it.
December 12, 2007 at 9:31 am
IWanthetruth
“We need to understand: on judgement day God will not ask “did you believe the right stuff?” or “did you read the right authors?” or “were you a Calvinist (or Armenian)?” He will ask: “when I was hungry, did you feed Me? when I was naked, did you clothe Me? did you visit Me when I was sick and in prison?” We need to be prepared to minister with compassion to people, and meet their needs, whether they believe the right things or not. Jesus commands it.
I understand exactly what you are saying here but I have to tell you that I don’t believe He is going to ask any of those questions. We need to ask ourselves if we did any of that and if not, “Get to it!”
I recently heard a sermon and the pastor made the same kind of comment. As I pondered this the next thing I knew I was feeling a bit of fear in my heart and I felt as if I was standing in the great judgement room (I didn’t see any figures or anything in a room) and I sensed that judgment was to begin with God just looking and judging what we did and did not do. No questions asked but in His authority, justice, and soverignty, He already knows what we have done and we will just stand there and be judged.
The real question will be does He say, “Well done” or does He say “I know you not!”
Blessings
December 12, 2007 at 10:07 am
Kim
Oakland is quoting known emergents for their positions on postmodernism, which is what i thought we are talking about…my mistake.
December 12, 2007 at 10:43 am
sadparent
IWantthetruth,
Good point. I want to hear God say to me: Well done, good and faithful servant.
I see all the cool, neat-o-keen teachings out there and fear many, many people are going to hear Him say, “depart from me. I never knew you..”
SP
December 12, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Anonymous
Oakland is quoting known emergents for their positions on postmodernism, which is what i thought we are talking about…my mistake.
Not your fault Kim… my problem is not with you, it’s with the seemingly endless stream of books in Christian circles that are short on scholarship and research and long on fear-mongering and sensationalism. Oakland himself admits that he is not taking into account the entire spectrum of emergent beliefs. In other words, he is cherry-picking quotations and taking things out of context, which at best only confuses the issues. (btw Brian McLaren is considered out in left field even by most emerging people — it’s totally unfair to quote him as representing the entire movement.)
If the emerging church has a lot to say about postmodernism (which it does) the reason is because the movement is attempting to evangelize a postmodern world. That’s the reason the emerging movement exists. The questions the emerging church raises are good ones: what do postmodern people value? what do they want? what do they need? how do you explain Jesus to people who know nothing of Him other than having heard His name taken in vain? how do you explain church to people who have no clue what a “Lord’s table” is?
Does the emerging movement get the answers to these questions wrong sometimes? Yes! So what are we (who generally speaking are older and wiser) going to do about it — attack them? or help them figure out what went wrong and help them do better next time?
re: the difference between postmodernism and the emerging movement. “Postmodern” more accurately describes today’s society, not the church (except for those churches that are so liberal as to be apostate, like the leaders of my own denomination
). Postmodern society is made up of people who were not raised in the faith and who think Christianity is irrelevant to daily life. The postmodern world is one in which Cartesian logic has been pushed to its ultimate conclusion, through relativism (that was about 50 years ago) to a place today where “knowing” anything is considered to be intellectually impossible. It’s a place of intellectual despair. Therefore telling a postmodern world that it is “wrong” is meaningless — evangelization must begin elsewhere, perhaps with “Jesus loves you”. Then once that’s understood and accepted “oh by the way He is also the Way the Truth and the Life and yes Truth really does exist” might make some sense.
IWTT and SP – thanks for your comments too. The word “fear” is mentioned by both of you — in Jesus there is nothing to fear. I trust Him to lead us into all righteousness. In Him we have the power to stand against the lies… which is what Kim’s work in apologetics is all about… and teach the deceived what is true (which is what my work is about).
December 12, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Peg
Sorry I forgot to log in before I posted… the above post is mine. 🙂
December 12, 2007 at 8:56 pm
jeff
Peg,
I hear you, and yes we shouln’t have any fear. Fear only the one who can throw you into the abyss.
And yes -isms are IMO ridiculous. However, what I have witnessed and heard from dozens of others are the exact same. When I read people’s comments all over the place, I think, “Did I write that blog comment and don’t remember?” No- then you read down and someone else has the exact same story. Churches (not the church) are saying, “Jesus loves you”, already.
What they cannot do is for 1 month or year or 10 years is play it soft to get people in the door, then all of a sudden say:
“We are sinners, we are so morally bankrupt, let us all get on our knees this mornging. We are going to repent of our sins this morning. Nobody here is exempt from this. If we do not repent, our consequences are punishment in hell for eternity.”
You see Peg, this would be a bate-and-switch tactick reserved for used car salesmen. Please realize that if you decide to do the soft seeker approach for even a month with some sort of out reach promotion, gain in numbers over that month, then start to preach the bible and it’s truths will repell those who thought, “Wow, this is cool everyone here is like me and I can do this christian thing.” Obviously you watched Kim’s latest post. That guy hits it hard, but he’s correct. If the church looks like the world, anyone can say they are a christian, unfortunately they would be right.
When we try to do something to “bring” people to Jesus, we will pat our self on the back for all the number of people WE saved, even if we are ultimately humble. If we stick to The Word, and Its truth, God will save them by grace, and will guide them there by truth and their roots will be strong. They will grow in the Lord and they will not look like the world.
I hope this made sense. The emerging church is seeker, corporate, numbers, driven. Like a business with consultants.
December 13, 2007 at 4:32 am
Peg
Jeff,
I’m not suggesting a soft sell. I’m suggesting ministry the way Jesus did it: appropriate to the context and to the person being spoken to. Jesus did not always lead off with John the Baptist’s message of “repent” (in fact most of the time he didn’t lead off with it).
“The emerging church is seeker, corporate, numbers, driven. Like a business with consultants.”
What you’re describing (corporate, numbers driven, etc) is exactly what the emerging church is trying to get away from. Those words might be more accurately applied to the seeker-driven or purpose-driven movements. Again it is essential to use language accurately and not call something purple if it’s actually orange.
re: “You see Peg”
…and please don’t talk down to me.
December 13, 2007 at 5:28 am
Kim
I believe the term “emergent” reflects what many church leaders are trying to do today, which is reform the church. Unfortunately, the various techniques whether they be “seeker-friendly”, “mysticism, or mission/purpose driven, there is a similarilty between them all, which is a lack of biblical truth.
This lack may vary but the result is the same. Unsaved, deceived people.
Comparing John the Baptist’s ministry to Jesus’ is …uh… John did not have the complete picture. He had not witnessed the death and resurrection. Hence, his ministry was based on repentance and baptism and he had the priviledge of introducing Jesus to the world which started the public ministry of Jesus.
Matthew 11: 17 Is interesting….”We sang a dirge, and you did not repent” (John preaching repentance) and “We played the flute for you and did not dance”. ( Jesus preaching the Good News). The people did not respond to either message and were indifferent.
As far as Roger Oakland, I have read his books, his articles and commentaries. To say that he would take a comment out of context to further his view..well.. he backs up his views with scripture. He is endorsed by Lighthouse Trails Publishing and if he ever did anything of the sort..I believe it would be pointed out…..
The time has come to walk only with Jesus, in a committed life. This is why what Paul Washer preaches is important. Everything we do, say and believe needs to be backed up biblically. The time for men’s philosophies and teachings are useless and waste precious time.
Colossians 2:8
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human traditions and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ”
December 13, 2007 at 8:02 am
Peg
OK OK…. we both have our favorite authors in the faith, and I doubt they’ll ever be the same ones. 😉 You’ve quoted one of yours, now here’s one of mine from the emerging church. From Scot McKnight’s blog:
Jesus is, Matthew 1:1 tells us, the son of Abraham and the son of David. David is another Christmas word. An important one.
The promise to David in 2 Samuel 7 was that someone in the line of David would always sit on the throne, and it is here that Christmas gets connected to David. Christmas is about the incarnation and the birth of the Son of David who is Messiah and the one who both reigns and will reign.
Celebrating Christmas is thus an act of faith and an act of hope. Why say this?
First, it is an act of faith that Jesus Christ, who was crucified and raised and exalted to the right hand of God, now reigns for we do not always see that reign. We believe Jesus reigns.
Second, it is an act of hope that Jesus Christ will come again to reign, to establish God’s kingdom in its fullness. We look for that day.
In light of this faith and hope, today we exalt Jesus as king by confessing him and living for the Son of David.
Far better, in my opinion, to preach faith and hope than to preach suspicion and distrust. I’ll stand with Scot.
December 13, 2007 at 12:11 pm
IWanthetruth
Peg,
I come from a very, very, very purpose driven, seeker-friendly church who is now using the “emergent” methods to boost the numbers game. Everyone of the leaders including the pastor have Master Degrees or have been in business for themselves (successful ones I might add) and everything they are doing, based on the foundation of both PDL and Emergent is exactly as Jeff calls it, “corporate, numbers, driven. Like a business with consultants.”
I have seen very few of it’s members really understand the idea of sin and repentence and frankly it is all a “feel good”, “experiential” way of life.
December 13, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Mary
If he were on a train and had an hour to talk to a lost man,
I think it was Dwight Moody who said he would spend 45 minutes talking about the falleness of man, hell, and a person’s lostness. And 15 minutes talking about the Cross. I know in my own case unless I had very real dreams of hell and understood it to be real, I don’t know that talking about the love of christ would have been enough to change my direction in life and fall at the feet of Jesus seeking mercy and forgiveness.
I have also gone to emmergent like churches and taken my unsaved family members there. We all walked away feeling warm and content. But they are still lost in their sins. I believe the gospel is offensive. It is both devasting news and the greatest news at the same time. Unless we have the whole council of God we will not truly be whole.
I’ve said it on another blog but I’ll say it here. When in my late 20’s and early 30’s I attended this emmergent mega church, I lived with a roommate that co-led a bible study with a guy in our church. They held the Bible study in our apartment. Every week after everyone left, they would sleep together. Once the guy also pulled a new christian aside and confronted her about her sexual sin as she was living with her boyfriend. This is what happens when we loose the fear of God and neglect His whole council. There is a place focusing on the everlasting love of Christ. But is must be balanced with all the Bible teaches.
December 13, 2007 at 8:33 pm
jeff
Peg,
I am sorry, I did not mean to talk down to you. Please forgive me. Sometimes I find it difficult to convey my expressions and feelings when writing, and maybe I should do less “yacking”.
About the numbers thing and churches and consultants and emergent churches getting away from it. That is exactly how they are SHOWING IT. Look behing the veil(sp). It is just like the wizard of oz.
Example: “Look at me, I’m casual, I wear jeans and an untucked shirt and have a go-tee. I have a starbucks in my hand. Dude, Man, there’s like this guy who lived way back a long time ago, and dude he loves you no matter where you are and what you do (Jesus does, but he also wants you to repent and change). If you want to be a christian like us, keep hanging out with us, pay your tithe, volunteer here and do that other stuff that you’ll you have to find out for yourselves, because you’re not going to get it here.”
Not only is this PDL, seeker, it is also emergent. That is exactly what emergent is. Finding out what the non-church people want in order to get them to church. Demographics are done, Psychographics are done and polls are done. After those are compiled, it is a fact- people want cool, relavant, self-esteem, lectures without leading them to be convicted to change what they are presently doing- and that is being of this world and not in it.
December 14, 2007 at 12:49 am
Kim
Okay Peg,
You like McKnight and I like Oakland…
Here is a comment from Oakland about Atonement taken from page 190, with his supporting scripture.
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. (Ephesians 1:7)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (II Corinthians 5:21)
“The heart and core of the Christian faith is based upon Jesus Christ’s shed blood at Calvary as the only acceptable substitutionary atonement for mankind’s sins. The Gospel message requires this foundation. The Bible says the wages of sin is death—thus every person alive should receive the penalty of spiritual death because none of us is without sin, since we are born with our sin nature intact.”
So i am wondering.. would you provide a quote from Mcknight on his view on atonement?
December 14, 2007 at 9:36 am
Peg
Hi all,
Thanks for sharing your stories (and yes Jeff we’re cool, thanks)… this is beginning to make more sense now. It sounds like many of you have come out of churches that taught “cheap grace” — salvation without repentance, a messiah without the cross, “niceness” without the Truth. Churches where it’s more important to be friendly, hip and successful than live lives of obedience to God. If that’s the case I can see why you’d be wary of anything that looks like it steps outside traditional norms.
For myself, my story is the opposite: I’ve seen too many narrow-minded churches and preachers, people who say “if you’re not baptized by immersion you’re not a Christian” or “if you don’t speak in tongues you’re not a Christian” or “if you don’t believe in predestination you’re not a Christian” or “if you’re not pre-trib (or post-trib) you’re not a Christian” etc etc.
What I’ve discovered is people who say “if you don’t _______ (fill in the blank) you’re not a Christian” are trying to control others by making them either (a) doubt their salvation or (b) be constantly worried about losing their salvation. I have seen far too many people’s lives (or their faith) destroyed by Christians who think it’s more important to be right than to love God’s people. (righteousness is only one facet of love)
Me, I was lucky. I found a pastor who took one look at me, saw the scars inflicted by the church, and said “Jesus loves you, and I can see you love Him too. Welcome home.” I stand with him.
Kim — John the Baptist’s message was “Repent! The kingdom of heaven is coming!”
Jesus’ message was “Rejoice! The kingdom of God is here!”
And then he went out and healed the sick, and set the demon-possessed free, and fed the hungry… When the Pharisees brought Him a woman caught in adultery, he said: “whoever has never sinned, cast the first stone at her” and later said to the woman: “where are your accusers? Neither to I condemn you; go your way and sin no more”. He set her free first and then told her to repent.
When Jesus met a Samaritan woman by the well, he didn’t treat her as an unclean heathen (as the Pharisees would have) — he broke Jewish law by asking her for a drink, and then offered her “living water… welling up to eternal life”. It wasn’t until a little bit later that he mentioned the man she was living with. In the book of John this woman, in her joy at meeting Jesus, became the first evangelist — she was spreading the good news about Jesus even before the disciples were.
The religious authorities OTOH didn’t like Jesus back then, and they still don’t like Him today… because if He’s in charge, then church leaders don’t get to tell people what to do and what to believe any more. Controlling people’s lives becomes His job, not theirs. And if we’re going to talk about the cross and His blood… the Good Book says it was the religious leaders who put Him there in the first place.
I stand with Him.
December 14, 2007 at 11:31 am
Mary
Peg,
I understand where you are coming from now. I’ve experienced some of that “if you don’t—– your not a christian. Especially when I visit new churches and am around people i don’t know I think they size me up without getting to know me and make assumptions unfairly. I really like the point you made about Jesus saying “rejoice for the kingdom of God is at hand”.
December 14, 2007 at 8:39 pm
jb
I’ve seen this when I go to a church as well. Jesus also said I came to divide; a mother-in-law against and so forth. These things turn people off, so the new age emergers stay as far away from such versus/books/chapters as not to offend. They throw out the baby with the bath water
Read Ez 34
December 15, 2007 at 10:16 am
Peg
Thanks, Mary… exactly. I knew a pastor once who could size a person up with a handshake (or thought he could). Like you said, he really didn’t know the people he was meeting.
JB… There is no such thing as a “new age emerger”. There is a new age movement, rooted in the Eastern-flavored spiritualities of the 1960s, and there ie the emerging movement, rooted in a protest against outdated and inflexible mainline churches.
You don’t have to like either one. You can believe they’re both heretical if you like. But insisting they are the same movement is either ignorance or prejudice.
December 15, 2007 at 10:16 am
Peg
Thanks, Mary… exactly. I knew a pastor once who could size a person up with a handshake (or thought he could). Like you said, he really didn’t know the people he was meeting.
JB… There is no such thing as a “new age emerger”. There is a new age movement, rooted in the Eastern-flavored spiritualities of the 1960s, and there ie the emerging movement, rooted in a protest against outdated and inflexible mainline churches.
You don’t have to like either one. You can believe they’re both heretical if you like. But insisting they are the same movement is either ignorance or prejudice.
December 15, 2007 at 10:55 am
Kim
I believe that the new age movement and the emergent movement can be connected, but not in all cases.
In general the the New Age is the Aquarian Age, and that this new age is emerging. A good description (but not definitive) is”New Ageism is defined as the science of mystical evolution, it is the employment of the hidden mystical faculties of man to discern the hidden reality to see God as the “all-in-all.”‘
Many emergents are embracing mysticism which can lead to the occult and paranormal/metaphysical situations, (also not definitive) which are detestable to the Lord. These are the emergents i am most concerned with. Other concerns are weak theology and mission/works.
These two definitions are extremely similar in nature and to dismiss the parallels…unwise.
After reading about the emerging church and what the “emergents”have been saying for two years i do not believe myself or jb ignorant. There is alot of information out there for those willing to read and research it. This is done (in my case anyway) with a burden and love for the church and for Jesus Christ.
December 15, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Mary
Kim,
Which I think you and Lee were connecting the dots- to redefine christianity either by what the emergent church is doing (salvation without repentance), much of the the modern prophetic comunity, or the new age movement seems to prime the world for acceptance of the antichrist. It seems they all have the same thing in common : the makings of the antichrist spirit.
December 15, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Kim
Exactly…
Ray Yungen who has been researching the emerging churches (all of them) for 20 years says it all on the cover of his book “A Time of Departing….How a universal spirituality is changing the face of Christianity”.
This new spirituality is to replace the “moldy” bible.Those who do not want to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ twist scripture to their own liking, like salvation without repentance. This is all leading to a universal religion which will usher in the end times.
December 16, 2007 at 11:46 am
IWanthetruth
Here’s a quote from Irenaeus of Lions (born A.D. 130 and disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John) who wrote about false teachers in the church:
“Error never shows itself in its naked reality, in order not to be discovered. On the contrary, it dresses elegantly, so that the unwary may be led to believe that it is more truthful than truth itself.”
How amazingly insightful is that?! Wow…………..
December 18, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Peg
IWTT — exactly. “The best lies are 90% true” is how I’ve heard it put.
That’s how conspiracy theories work, too, including the conspiracy theories put forth by many Christian writers about modern heresies. That’s why it’s so important to define terms correctly, to make sure we get the facts right, to do our own first-hand research, and to approach people who differ from us with compassion.
Of course all lies come from the father of lies. But on the ground, in the real world, you’ll never convince people of that until they’ve given their lives to Jesus. In the meantime people who have fallen for lies must be treated respectfully, and understood correctly, or they’ll never hear us. To tell an emerger that they’ve fallen for the New Age will just cause them to write us off as part of the lunatic fringe — and we will be the ones at fault for that, because we’ve misunderstood them.
What I discovered after a few of years of writing the kinds of things Kim writes here, is that most Christians have the wrong end of the stick where it comes to defining these movements as they define themselves. Only by getting on their page (momentarily of course) is it possible to evangelize them in their own language. And isn’t that the purpose of what we’re doing here? To warn people of the lies and influence them to turn to Christ? It will never happen unless we understand them correctly first. Reach them where they are, like Jesus did.
If that’s not what we’re doing, then all we are doing is passing around global gossip and playing a game of “ain’t it awful”.
December 18, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Mary
But it is awful Peg,
Many people are swallowing the lies because it feels good to them. Jesus did not treat false teachers with compassion neither did Paul. Its not the people themselves we are angry with but the fase representation of Christ that they teach. Do we really need to be compassionate to word of faith teachers who are living in the lap of luxury preaching a false gospel and telling people we are little gods on earth? Do we need to be compassionate toward the televangelists who fleece the flock every day and use spiritual manipulation to pad their bank books and steal from the poor widow? (IE Paula and Randy White). Do we look the other way in compassion when in ignorance when the sheep are taught to visualize Jesus and fly through the air and be teleported to heaven? Peg I think you are closing your eyes and wanting to remain ignorant to the broad scope of how very much peril the church is in. I appreciate that you want to not gossip and spread untruth. But we are not exagerating what is really going on. My own sister-in-law is teaching her 7 year old daughter to visualize Jesus and talk with him when he comes to her. She saw him standing with a purple flower. My sister-in-law’s church supports a false prophet who I believe is demon possessed and is leading millions to a false Jesus. My mother in law and father in law see no wrong in false manifestations of gold dust, jem stones, twitching and being drunk in the spirit not to mention the false teaching that goes along with the hypercharismatic churches. My husband was abused in legalistic church. My mother thinks Oprah is a good woman. My father thinks he is right with God because he prayed a pray after reading the purpose driven life. Unless someone exposes this garbage we are all doomed.
December 18, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Mary
We the church are lazy. We don’t read the Word like we should. I waisted 15 years of my life not reading it and I became a target of the false teachers. I fell for it. So don’t down Kim for speaking up. Thank God that there are people who are waking up and being rescued from deception. It’s not going to get easier, it’s going to get harder to discern, Peg. Be a berean christian and don’t let it happen to you!
December 19, 2007 at 11:21 am
Peg
Mary — This is what I meant when I said “don’t be afraid”. God is in control.
Psalm 91:7 “A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.”
My eyes are not closed…. I’ve been there, done that, got the T-shirt a long time ago. This is all old hat to me. Yes the state of the American church is awful, has been for decades, but God is in control and that needs to be the anchor for every Christian.
If reading all this heretical stuff does nothing more than get you (and other like-minded people) worked up emotionally then for the sake of your own spiritual walk you need to quit reading it. If OTOH you’re planning on evangelizing the lost, you’ll need a clearer understanding of who the lost are and what they really believe before you can reach them.
re: being a berean christian….. I believe in Christianity pure and simple, not “Christianity and…” I’m just a Christian, nothing more, nothing less.
December 19, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Mary
Peg,
Reading all this heretical stuff doesn’t get me worked up. It helps me to understand and discern the times. I’m not sure what your point is. If Jesus said see to it that no one deceive you” I will take that to mean we can easily be deceived if we are not careful.
December 19, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Kim
Studing the issues that Christians have to face is of extreme importance. Like Mary says it helps to understand the times.
The Lord “called” me into the discernment ministry. It is one of the two personal ministries that i have. I am nothing, in myself. All that i do, i do for the sake of Christ’s name, that He may get all the glory. That He will get the reward for his suffering.
Jesus is constantly leading me into the truth. Knowing these things, what would i say to Him upon His return if i did not warn others of the deception? How would i answer those who i came in contact with, “why did you not tell me the truth?” upon their final damnation?
This is the burden that i have which leads me, guides me, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, i hope there are some who have been helped by all those who want to warn others of apostasy.
December 19, 2007 at 11:55 pm
Mary
I have been greatly helped by blogging. Actually it’s through blogging that the Lord has healed some unresolved deep emotional hurt that I have been carrying for 15 years.
Also because of your blog Kim, I printed out the article on Oprah and the new age and showed it to my mother because she didn’t believe me.
Blogging has caused me to really evaluate some serious issues. And also to learn alot about the charismatic church and since my husband and his family are from a pentecostal/charismatic background I have come to understand the teaching- both bad and good.
I was not taught to discern this stuff in church (PCUSA). I think they have blinders on their eyes. We havent talked about endtimes deception, the emergent church, false prophets, and false doctrine. No, each week we leave feeling good and nice as the world goes to hell.
It’s hard to discern this stuff on your own. For instance, now I see how my sister-in-law is getting sucked into the new age. The book she gave me by Choo Thomas is filled with new age deception and false prophecy. But I couldn’t discern it on my own. I see how the new age is influencing the charismatic church and now I know what to look for when I attend a charismatic church with family. Kim, your blog has helped me a great deal. Paul commended the Berean christians for testing his words to the word of God. That’s a good thing. And I hope I don’t ever fall for deception again. And i will use what I am learning here. I have been talking to family memebers and friends. My husband told me he was proud of me the other day when I discussed why I don’t want a Mormon in the White House. I normally am rather sheepish with his family but not anymore! Your labor is not in vain Kim!!!
December 20, 2007 at 5:03 am
Kim
Look at this comment i found from Choo Thomas:
“He said, He is letting people know what it takes to enter His Kingdom, through this book.” (Heaven is so real)
What! What about the Bible?
Also this book was inspired by Paul Yonggi Cho.. Read this from:
http://www.cephasministry.com/paul_yonggi_cho.html
Cho claims to have received his call to preach from Jesus Christ Himself, who supposedly appeared to him dressed like a fireman. (Dwight J. Wilson, “Cho, Paul Yonggi,” Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, 161)
Cho is well aware of his link to occultism, arguing that if Buddhists and Yoga practitioners can accomplish their objectives through fourth dimensional powers, then Christians should be able to accomplish much more by using the same means.
arrgh-i am pulling my hair out again.
Mary….thank you for the encouragement.
December 20, 2007 at 9:27 pm
jb
Kim,
Dr. Martin Shotz once wrote:
“It is so important to understand that one of the primary means of immobilizing people today is to hold them in a state of confusion in which anything can be believed, but nothing can be known, nothing of significance that is. People are more than wiling to be held in this state because to KNOW the truth-as opposed to only BELIEVE the truth- is to face an awful terror and to be no longer able to evade responsibility. It is precisely in moving from belief to knowledge that the citizen moves from irresponsibility to responsibility, from helplessness and hopelessness to action, with the ultimate aim of being empowered and confident in one’s rational powers.”
If you’ll notice today if we are confident and absolute in anything as persons or as groups we are “ignorant and arrogant”. Having absolute confidence with an open mind to hear/discuss issues is what america was so great at, but we have become people aimlessly wondering in irresponsibility, confusion and indecision.
Keep up the good fight Kim.
December 21, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Peg
Understanding and discerning the times is extremely important and I don’t mean to say otherwise.
I also acknowledge and encourage those of you who have come out of deceptive teachings. It takes a lot of courage to face the fact that we’ve been lied to, and to turn and seek out the truth. Keep on doing this!
What I’m trying to say is the word “discernment” means to see the truth — even if it is being spoken by people different from us.
– The truth is the New Age is a lie.
– The truth is that anything that comes from Eastern Occultism is not of God.
– The truth is that the Prosperity Gospel is a total deception. (I believe this is the greatest threat to the church today.)
– The truth is there are many false prophets and false teachers out there, both in and out of the church.
– The sad truth is, Mary’s right, you probably won’t hear about any of the modern heresies and how to argue against them in church.
– The truth is we need to know the scriptures and have God’s Word written on our hearts.
– The truth is also any connection between emerging churches and the New Age movement is far more imagined than real. You can disagree with the emergers, you can say they have their theology wrong, but you cannot call them new agers and be telling the truth.
– The truth is the word “meditation” does not mean the same thing in Judeo-Christian history as it does in Eastern history. What makes meditation good or evil is what is being meditated on. Joshua 1:8 – “Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it.”
– The truth is all of us are conditioned by culture we live in, and that will effect how we understand scripture. True discernment seeks to make scripture understandable to people different from us without compromising the truth of the Word.
– The truth is EVERY church — no matter the type — will emphasize certain Bible truths and downplay others. We need to be aware of this and fight the temptation to see only our own point of view.
Kim writes: The Lord “called” me into the discernment ministry.
I agree. For those reading, I am not attacking Kim. What I am saying to her is “dig deeper”. There is FAR more to Christian history and the various expressions of the faith than just what the late-20th-century-conservative-Calvinist-Protestant-American church teaches. Read the great masters of the faith: Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wycliffe, etc. Learn a little bit of Greek and/or Hebrew so you can read scripture in the original languages. Ground yourself deeply. The more you know about our 2000-year history the better apologist you will be.
I am also saying “think broader”. Stripping away 1500 years of Christian teaching simply because it came from the Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches puts modern Christianity on very shaky ground — the same shaky ground the Mormon church stands on btw (they also reject Catholicism and the Orthodox church and claim to be Protestant). Whether we like it or not, Protestantism is a child of the Catholic church. They are the parent faith, and there is a lot we can learn from them even if we disagree with them on a lot of important issues.
I get the feeling I’m being branded as the resident heretic around here… and if I wasn’t before, I will be now for opening the Catholic can of worms… 😉 but…
If anyone would like to be encouraged in learning more about just how secure our salvation in Christ is — I invite you to take a look at my final paper for Biblical Interpretation class. Here’s a link:
http://home.comcast.net/~pegbowman/SchoolPapers/IPeter.htm
December 21, 2007 at 8:33 pm
jeff
Peg,
Good paper! Yes a very large can of worms, I came out of catholicism. I will not go deep into it, but curious about where it is you’re coming from. I don’t think your a heretic, these are discussions. My question to emergers is this:
Who can save a man? God or man?
Nothing we see from “emergers” is new- nothing. Church leaders are patting themselves on the back for “bringing” people to a false salvation. Paul said everything is permissible, but not beneficial. The freedom christians have in Christ does not lay the ground work for doing these types of practices that we are witnessing in the church. Meditation, I agree, can mean different things (I do know what it means in the bible which is different than what we are seeing today), however look a Willow C. Saddle, etc. They are using it EXACTLY like hindus and buddhists. Catholics do it as well and the ecumenical movement and emergent church are almost paralleling eachother. When I say almost paralleling what I mean is they will converge at the end, and I do not think it will be christianity.
When the bible is preached with the whole Counsel of God, you cannot go wrong and people will be grounded in Truth which GOD brought them to, not man leading man into a pit.
December 21, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Mary
Peg,
You had me until you mentioned the great whore of Babylon being the parent church. I was formerly a catholic also.
I hear what you are saying. But here is a quote from Bill from
iseeitdifferently.wordpress.com
I think this pretty much can shine a light on why I think the emergent church has got it all wrong. I don’t think many emergent churches will be preaching on this any time soon ISAIAH 6. In refenence to the Holiness of God –
Websters 1828
terrible
TER’RIBLE, a. [L. terribilis, from terreo, to frighten.]
1. Frightful; adapted to excite terror; dreadful; formidable.
Prudent in peace, and terrible in war.
The form of the image was terrible. Dan.2.
2. Adapted to impress dread, terror or solemn awe and reverence.
The Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible. Deut.7.
Let them praise thy great and terrible name, for it is holy. Ps.99.
He hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen. Deut.10.
December 21, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Mary
I included that quote cause I think it’s the answer to most of the modern heresies. As I mentioned previously I was involved with an emergent church. Actually it was probably a precurser to the emergent church. However the end result is the same: the elevation of man and the lowering of God to a humanistic level. It always seems to end in death.For what good can come from man? Preach the whole truth. And those who have ears to hear will listen.
December 21, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Kim
Peg,
You are my sister in Christ, and i hope you always feel free to express yourself here.
I have already studied much of what you think i should be studying. But I believe it is the Word of God that Christians need to be grounded in.
When i think of the fishermen that Jesus called to be his disciples, i think of the simplicity that is in Christ. They were uneducated, but they loved the Lord, and they were empowered by the teaching of Jesus and then by the Holy Spirit. If only we would study his Word and DO what He tells us in scripture there would be less apostasy.
“I am also saying “think broader”. ”
I understand what you are saying here, but i want to encourage people to walk the narrow path. The broad path and the broad gate leads to destruction.
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
Everybody knows this verse yet….the implication is very convicting to our lives. There is only a remnant. And i am begging those to consider if they are living for Christ or for themselves.
“Whether we like it or not, Protestantism is a child of the Catholic church. They are the parent faith, and there is a lot we can learn from them even if we disagree with them on a lot of important issues.”
I tend to think of the Ephesians, Corinthians, Galatians, as the first church, and I study what is taught to them.
December 22, 2007 at 12:16 am
Sara
Remember sisters and brothers that love should be our motive even when we disagree with each other. All harshness has to be left behind when we differ, afterall it’s all about OUR DEAR JESUS who WE ADORE! It’s simply wonderful He gave HIS ACTUAL LIFE for us!
December 22, 2007 at 12:40 am
Mary
I feel the love!! 🙂
Merry Christmas Peg,Kim, Sarah,Jeff,and JB. !!!!!!!!
Ah I guess I should use another term since christmas =Christ’s Mass = catholic term.
ok I am being too nit picky.