This is a very interesting article about Testing the Gift of Tongues. One time my father gave me an account of listening to someone speaking in tongues and then hearing the interpretation. His eyes glowed when he told me of the simply beautiful words of praise that come from the interpretors mouth. Then again, I heard a story from my mother who attended a revival meeting many years ago in Bellevue, WA and received the gift of tongues there. On a return trip back to the meeting place she noticed that those speaking in tongues were actually worshiping a man named Ted, and calling him Lord. The hair raised on the back of her neck and she realized that the meeting was demonic. She renounced the gift she had received suspecting that it was satanic in origin. So I have two accounts from my own family, one appearing to be the true gift of tongues and then the second being a counterfeit gift.
Testing the gift of tongues, what are you afraid of if you do?
God commands believers to not forbid speaking in tongues (I Corinthians 14:39), but He also commands them not to believe every spirit but to put them to the test to see whether they are of God or not (1 John 4). The spiritual gift ‘distinguishing of spirits’ is one of the least sought after, and least preached about spiritual gifts, that is very seldom mentioned let alone practiced. However this gift is vital for any Spiritual church’s day to day life – as the Apostle John tells us many false spirits NOT of God have gone into the world. Note also that testing the spirits in the Biblical sense is completely different to ‘blaspheming against the Holy Spirit’ which is a commonly given reason for not testing spiritual gifts. However, it is one thing to accuse a person or spirit they operate by the power of Beelzebub (without scripturally testing them), and quite another to test and see if the spirit acknowledges Christ or not as per the test in 1 John 4 before one makes any accusation.
After fifty-five years of ministry, A.E. Ruark believed around 90% of all tongues manifestations that he tested were false. He believed there was a true gift of tongues so he was not against spiritual gifts. However he realized that for every spiritual gift there was an anti-gift – a false gift that is antichrist. He claimed that tongues was one of the most frequent entry points for Satan in his attack upon Christian people (as they do not know what they are saying and rarely discern it or interpret it properly) and that their fear, or reluctance, to test the spirits was a major strategy Satan used to avoid being uncovered.
The test he suggested of a tongues spirit should be made when someone is speaking in tongues. The one who does the testing should address, not the human being, but the spirit, in this manner, “Spirit, in the name of Jesus Christ, answer, is Jesus Christ come in the flesh?” A demon is most reluctant to answer this question. It will refuse to answer that question, will give an evasive answer, or say “no” in English with the person’s voice. “The tongues speaker must agree that the spirit of the tongue may answer in English, and that he himself will not give the answers, but will as it were “sit back”, and allow the spirit controlling his vocal organs to give the answers, while he simply listens. Then we are testing the spirit of the tongue directly, and will prove whether this spirit is of God or of the devil.”Gerald E. McGraw said that the Holy Spirit promptly, freely and consistently confesses Christ. A demon will give one or several answers that betray his real identity, or he will stubbornly evade the question, in itself a refusal to confess. A demon may give a number of favorable answers, for he hopes to preserve his hold on the victim, but persistence and faith will soon unveil his actual identity, name and purpose.
W.L. McLeod, the pastor in whose church the Canadian Revival began, said,‘On a number of occasions I have been asked by tongues speakers to test their gift. I have found some that were entirely a self thing, and some that had demonic overtones, but I cannot deny that some were as genuine as any Scriptural test could make them. The test I applied was simple. I would kneel with the person and ask them to exercise the gift. . . . When they go into this other tongue, I then address the spirit controlling their tongue and ask it, on the authority of 1 John 4:1-3 to confess in the English language that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. I think of one such case where the reply was given in perfect English, loud and clear, “Yes, yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He came in the flesh.” The person was so overcome afterwards by the manifestation of the power of God, that she was unable for a few moments to rise from her knees…. . . There are probably as many genuine cases as there are phony ones.’
Gerald McGraw claimed that many religious spirits would be deceptive, and call themselves ‘Jesus’ (albeit another Jesus). ’During a deliverance session, we encountered a spirit named Jesus. He hated the Lord Jesus Christ. I was suspicious because past experience had revealed that tongues demons often deceptively adopt the name Jesus. Upon my inquiry the demon admitted he was the spirit giving her, her gift of tongues, rather than the Holy Spirit.’ Some apparently even claim to be the Holy Spirit till revealed to be otherwise.Strong Christians can be invaded by a tongues demon, therefore anyone with a gift of tongues should make certain the gift was not a satanic counterfeit, since missionaries have reported hearing tongues speakers blaspheming in the language they had used on the mission field.
Tongues should be tested….At that time McGraw had never tested any tongues, nor had his colleagues. But soon someone asked for a test…. she was ‘an outstanding Christian lady – capable, talented, balanced, dependable, a soulwinner. She said she never used her tongue except in private. As she related her spiritual experience to my wife and me I just could not imagine that this fine believer could have a tongues demon. I told her so….Upon testing we found a tongue quite manifestly of the Holy Spirit. But soon another tongue appeared in the same woman- a tongue that was bitter and hateful toward Christ, toward her and toward us. The true tongue was clear evidence to me that her sanctification was genuine. Yet it was undeniable that a demonic tongues spirit inhabited her.’
‘Others who have had tongues tests are utterly sincere and deeply spiritual people. The lives of several show marked evidence of conversion, spiritual hunger and growth. I do not believe that a tongues demon can sever a person from Christ’s love. I have no doubt that many in the charismatic movement are earnest Christians, with more zeal and love than their anticharismatic critics. Yet my experiences of testing make me suspect that multitudes of tongues enthusiasts are deluded.’
There is seemingly slight ground that can admit a tongues demon, particularly where an unscriptural view is entertained…. God will never give a stone if we ask Him for the good gift of His Spirit (Luke 11:11-13), but experiences of many demonstrate that unscriptural views on tongues are frequently sufficient provocation for Satan to give an unsuspecting victim stones and scorpions of false tongues at the same time. God offers no automatic protection to the unwary. One middle-aged lady visited only one charismatic meeting. When a saintly looking elderly man there urged, “Just yield your tongue,” she did. She received nine different demonic spirits who all professed to provide her with tongues gifts.Tongues are no plaything. A properly tested tongue can provide a channel of spiritual enrichment to a Christian and to a congregation. But it appears much of the current wave of tongues-speaking is satanic delusion.’Edited excerpts from ‘Distinguishing Between True and False Utterances’ by K. Neill Foster.
Alexander Seibel of Germany was a Pentecostal of good standing. His friend was a missionary in India and on a visit in Germany. They shared missionary experiences and decided to pray. While Alexander was praying in tongues the missionary jumped up and demanded Alex to stop speaking as he was saying, in a known Indian dialect, the most horrible blasphemy words against God.
There are many other similar occurrences. Tongues must be tested. Note I do not say all tongues are false, I say some are. K. Neill Foster continues –‘Can it be claimed as certain assurance that those who insist upon a tongues experience contrary to scriptures will never get a stone or serpent? If this scripture can be used in this way, why then the manifestation of false gifts on every side?
For example, I know personally a former preacher who finally discovered his gifts were not of God. I was in the counseling room when he was converted. During his Bible college days I had occasional contact with him. He began working in what would be called a non-charismatic evangelical denomination. He left to pastor a Pentecostal church because of his speaking in tongues and also other “gifts” such as the ability to identify the sins of the people in the congregation. At the same time his marriage deteriorated. He finally left the ministry. In his case there were also frequent outbursts of obscenity and later abject backsliding. Finally in desperation he came to his former friends, so-called non-charismatic pastors. In a deliverance which lasted several hours these pastors drove out eight demons, many of them naming themselves as false gifts, several of them speaking in tongues.One brother who has tested tongues for forty years says that in his experience nine out of ten were false.
In a recently published article one of our contemporaries cites a similar statistic: Ninety percent of the tongues he and his colleagues have tested have been false. In my own experience perhaps eighty percent of the tongues manifestations that I have had to deal with have been false.
Still I doubt that the statistics tell the whole story. Because people with genuine gifts and healthy spiritual life do not come for counseling nearly so frequently. But there is no denying that the devil has been having a field day among charismatic’s. His penetration, whatever the percentage, appears to be massive.
But to face the issue of false gifts, stones and serpents, the open door to satanic penetration is in the merging of the work of the Holy Spirit which is for all with a spiritual gift that is given only to some as God wills. The resulting confusion is very often tragic.
A teenager was subjected to the overtures of a radical charismatic group, a group which in turn would certainly be rejected by mainline groups of Pentecostals. He allowed hands to be laid on him and “saw” a bright light. Later in a “Canadian revival” atmosphere, as distinct from “charismatic” atmosphere, the youth felt a bondage he could not escape until he made a verbal commitment much like this, “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I now refuse, repudiate and renounce completely any and all spirits of false prophecy from _____ (naming the false prophet). And I send them to the abyss in Jesus’ name.” He was instantly liberated and sensed within that the “charismatic” bondage had been broken.
On one occasion a pastor friend came to me asking for assistance. He had two young fellows preaching in his church, one of whom he knew spoke in tongues, and he was uneasy about their ministry. He wanted the test to be applied….We applied the test to both, but we were unsatisfied with the results. It appeared that the fellows spoke in tongues, switched off the manifestation to answer positively to the question, “Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh?” and then shifted back into their tongues. I realize now that we found out only if the fellows believed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. We did not succeed in trying the spirits at all. But the experience was not wasted; we learned what not to do.
The manifestation must be allowed unhindered and uninterrupted expression while the test is being made, and no effort must be made by the person involved to supply the “right” answer.
The repetition of the question, “You spirit now manifesting, is Jesus Christ come in the flesh?” may be important. I have come to expect a spontaneous affirmative answer when the tongues manifestation is genuinely of the Holy Spirit, especially when the test question is put several times.If the enemy is involved, repetitious questioning (like repetitious commanding, Mark 5:8, Amplified New Testament) will often shake the enemy loose and provoke abrasive or antagonistic reactions – and of course clarify the case.Sometimes the spirit may respond with a positive answer that is at the same time equivocate and/or evasive. For example, a spirit might respond, “Of course I believe in Jesus.” But which Jesus is not specified. If there is any hint of subterfuge, stick to the biblical test. Repeat it. Enlarge upon it by requiring answers to such questions as these: Is Jesus Christ Lord? Is Jesus Christ anathema? Does all the fullness of the Godhead dwell bodily in Jesus Christ? This procedure is likely to clarify the issue fully.In 1 John 4:2 and 3 the verb forms used indicate that every spirit that continually and genuinely confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. Therefore reluctant admissions or occasional positive declarations that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are not sufficient.
The confession must be continual. A superficial understanding of this principle can short circuit the whole procedure of testing.
(Demons can and do lie. Thus, the words continually and genuinely in the paragraph above are of utmost importance. Also, as we have just noted, the Greek verbs used in 1 Corinthians 12:3 and 1 John 4:2 and 3 do come down strongly on the continuous idea.)
Illustrations of deceitful positive affirmations are not hard to come by. In the Dominican Republic I met a Christian woman who habitually twitched and shuddered in prayer meetings. She had a tongues manifestation which seemed to take over when she wanted to praise the Lord. But when the manifestation was confronted, the confession of Jesus Christ, though positive, was accented, even faintly humorous or mocking, and in English which the woman definitely did not know. I believe in retrospect that it was a false confession.
A friend who wrote to me during the writing of this book related an incident where invading spirits named one of their co-inhabitors, “Jesus.” So of course they all knew and loved “Jesus.” The spirits had to be confronted with “which Jesus?”
Another friend added yet another illustration. In the process of a deliverance a spirit claiming to be the Holy Spirit manifested itself in the victim. All tests were applied with positive results. When my friend returned home from a trip, he found his colleagues persuaded that the Holy Spirit indeed had taken control of the person. All he had to follow was a discerning witness that something was wrong. He initiated a confrontation and the phony “Holy Spirit” was uncovered.
Thus, as we have said elsewhere in these pages, there are four possibilities with spirit-testing: (1) a positive affirmation which is genuine and continual, (2) a positive affirmation which is not continual but is intended to deceive, (3) a denial, and (4) silence. 1 John 4:2 and 3 lays a four-sided trap for the enemy, and the Christian worker must know where the biblical lines are drawn.
If a pastor observes doubtful manifestations in his congregation, as a shepherd of the flock, I feel personally he has every right to ask to be permitted to test the manifestation. But he should be ready for the fireworks and to proceed with exorcism in the event of false manifestations. He should also be prepared to instruct the inquiring person if the manifestation proves fleshly. If the person himself is creating the “tongue” and no spiritual manifestation is involved, it may be judged fleshly.
Also, before the test is applied, one should prepare the person involved for the possibility that there has been deception. To admit that one has been deceived is a very high hurdle indeed. Terminology is important. Use the full title of the Lord Jesus Christ, because there are many antichrists in the world. At one of our conventions a sister who was in the process of being delivered was taken by a spirit which said repeatedly, “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.” Unfortunately the “Jesus” was not the Lord Jesus Christ. The spirit was dislodged in His name.’
From ‘A Third View of Tongues’ by K. Neill Foster
I found this article Here.
DiscernIt 
129 comments
Comments feed for this article
November 30, 2007 at 12:58 am
blueraindrop
“On a return trip back to the meeting place she noticed that those speaking in tongues were actually worshiping a man named Ted”
i wish they would have explained this a bit more…
November 30, 2007 at 1:35 am
Kim
This happened to my mother back in the 1960’s. She is now 83 years old.
My mother and my aunt had returned to this revival meeting in someones home. There seemed to be quite a few revival type meetings back then.
We just talked about this yesterday as i wanted to review the information i was going to post.
At the first meeting they were at, both were encouraged to ask for the gift of tongues as neither had this gift. There was instruction on how to pray and ask and let any utterance come forth. Well both received the gift of tongues. For the first time yesterday though, my mom explained that both of them were using their tongues but never felt comfortable with it. Something was not right. They had talked together about this and agreed there was some problem.
It was at the second meeting they attended that really showed what was going on. People at the meeting were all praying in tongues, when she noticed that people were not praising God but were focusing their attention on a man named Ted. He was asking the people to call him Lord. This immediately alarmed them and they left, never to return again.
My mother never used the gift again as it was not from God.
November 30, 2007 at 3:12 am
Peg
Kim,
Great post! I hope it reaches lots of folks who need to see it.
Peg
November 30, 2007 at 3:48 am
IWanthetruth
Interesing post…
I think about the book of Acts and the day of pentecost. Their proof was that many heard them in thier own language and they new what they were saying, as if you spoke english at that moment and I heard it and understood it.
But then there are other accounts of people having hands laid on them and they spoke in other tongues but there is nothing mentioned about how it was tested to be real or not in the scripture.
I think the concept is interesting, but not sure I agree whole heartedly. Reason? There is a sentence in your post that eludes to the spirit controllingthe tongue as if the “tongue” talker was under the influence. I have always been taught that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet and I believe that goes for the other estatic gifts. The person is in control. If he/she is not then I would say there might be something there. I have heard the same problem with people who say that had a prophecy but don’t remember what was said because “God” was in control of them. Bunk, again “the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet”.
Some of the stuff mentioned in your post I am abit uncomfortable with, but then I also will admit I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. When it finally happened I was fully aware and cognitive of what was going on and believe to this day that I spoke an American Indian dialect. I was worshipping and praising God in english and the next thing I know it came out in another language. My mind and spirit was focused on Him, Christ Jesus. It hasn’t happened since and I don’t go around “shondie-ing” and all that other stuff. I could probably count on one hand how many times I think the gift of tongues was used and they were interpreted, and tested to the word of God.
It almost has a Hank Hanagraff thing in some of the ways of testing and I am a bit wary of some of that kind of stuff. Just my opinion.
November 30, 2007 at 4:09 am
Mary
IWANT,
I’m just curious, is the “shondie” stuff totally fake in your oppinion. The reason I ask is because I would imagine that the overt gifts occur when one is moved by the Spirit of God. Or is that incorrect? I mean when one is in a hightened spiritual place . Or is it everyday? I see alot of the Shondie stuff on TBN and wonder. It seems like they can turn it on and off at the drop of a hat. No one walks everyday deeply moved in the Spirit.
November 30, 2007 at 4:25 am
Kim
IWant..thank you for your input..I know little about the Gift of Tongues, but i found this article interesting. The statistics may be very skewed by the fact that people were coming for counsel about their tongues which would indicate there would be a problem to begin with.
I am concerned about those who are seeking this gift and do not receive it, and the result of feeling somehow unworthy.
I have heard, in person, a shaman woman pray in tongues so i know that there is a counterfeit.
Okay….what is “shondie-ing”?
November 30, 2007 at 4:33 am
Mary
Shondie-ing? Watch Creflo Dollar on TBN!
my husband grew up in Assemblies of God which by the way I believe teach one MUST speak in tongues as proof they have been baptised in the HS which I know is not true. (I know I have been baptised in the HS but I do not speak in tongues. His church just lined everyone up and laid hands on them and coached them to speak some mumbo jumbo. “Go nah nah shoe bie do” or some nonsense. He said it was all forced. And when they tried to slay him in the spirit he wouldn’t fall under the power so they would knock him down by force.I am not saying all AOG are this bad(disclaimer).
November 30, 2007 at 4:47 am
Kim
Oh…i never watch TBN anymore, maybe i should for research.. I have heard stories of people being punched and pushed over when they wouldn’t fall under the “power”. A woman told me she was actually punched in the stomach.
So Shondie-ing is a made-up tongue…Okay.
I do not have the gift of tongues either.
November 30, 2007 at 6:08 am
IWanthetruth
Mary,
I think much of it is fake. I will give you an example from my own life where I really think it was a real situation.
This happened about 30 years ago, (gives you an idea of how often this may really happen) my mother-in-law had surgery and we went to the hospital that night. She looked so weak and in so much in pain. When we got home my wife was just so upset because she had never seen her mother in that kind of condition before and the compassion went out to her. My wife was also very, very worried about her. We went to bed and prayed for mom and all of a sudden she said (my wife) I have 3 words that aren’t english that just popped in my head. I asked her to say them out loud and they were “Trutucio Erie Abba”. Now I have heard the word abba before (bible) and I immediately felt I had the interpretation and knew that was “Trust the Father”.
I believe to this day, that was a tongue with interpretation, a real one. We went to sleep encouraged, edified and at peace. I think that would test to the scriptures.
This has never happened to me since and I do not look for it as a manifestation that I expect to happen everyday or in every situation. In fact I am quite bothered by it when people just blurt it out during a sermon or whatever on TBN and the like because my bible says it is to be interpreted and if it isn’t is in fake, and I never hear an interpretation.
I have at times in my prayer closet felt the unction to pray in what I believe is in the spirit and is some type of language, but it is by myself and it is between me and God. I am in full controll, no shaking, bobbing, etc. and in a way I feel that is an example of “the spirit interceeding” in prayer when I don’t know how to pray in a situation.
Now as Kim said, “So Shondie-ing is a made-up tongue…Okay.” Correct, I agree with you.
Here is my total take on all of this stuff… It is abused a great deal in the church of today and especially in the “Prophetic Movement Heresy” and many (not all) pentecostal/charismatic churches. I believe that the gifts are for today, but by golly, they need to be totally used 1) to point or validate the ministry of Christ Jesus, 2) done in decency and orderliness (not what I see in many churches) and 3) and something not to be trifled with. I think that John 15? forgot the chapter, but there someplace, we are given what the work of the Holy Spirit is. I also believe that the gifts are given to us so that we can learn to walk in obedience and in the power of the Lord so that we can “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. They were never given to be the main thing or for show but to help us be more like our pefect example, Christ Jesus.
My son-in-law, who is a licensed pastor within a pentecostal denomination said to me, “If he never saw the “manifestation of the Holy Spirit” in a corporate setting again it would be alright because he sees the Holy Spirit manifesting himself in his private life and building his relationship with the Lord.”
Enough for now…..
Blessings all
IWant
November 30, 2007 at 6:15 am
Kim
I also believe that the gifts are given to us so that we can learn to walk in obedience and in the power of the Lord so that we can “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”. They were never given to be the main thing or for show but to help us be more like our pefect example, Christ Jesus.
Beautifully said……
November 30, 2007 at 6:24 am
IWanthetruth
Thank you.. By the way Kim, I just wanted to tell you that I so enjoy your site. You have great posts that are full of information and I really like the way you interact with each of us. I see in your writtings the “correction” but truely given in love.
God bless you …
IWant
November 30, 2007 at 7:06 am
Zoe
I received the gift of speaking in tongues when I was a new Christian in 1983. A woman at a Bible study asked me if I spoke in tongues and I said no. She said I could if I wanted to but just had never done it. I think she believed that everyone has a prayer language. I went home and later in the day while I was nursing my baby I began to speak in tongues. At least I guessed thats what it was since I had never heard anyone speak in tongues before. I don’t recall even asking God for it. I have never been able to find conclusive evidence in scripture that it is for everyone. And I don’t want to be doing it if I am being used by the enemy. Lately I’ve been thinking a lot about it. I am totally in control when I am speaking and I only do it in private.
December 1, 2007 at 9:52 pm
jb
Babel!
Tongues means glossa (greek) which in turn means language. IMHO if no one is there to immediately interpret that language it’s just babel and does nothing for anyone but the person speaking. I pray to God that they are all truly speaking in the tongue and hope I never blasphemy by not believing, however Paul states it is does nothing to edify or give information to those present if no one interprets. I have witnessed babelling and I know enough Latin to know these people were trying to sound Latin/Greek. Each time I was very uncomfortable and felt a chill when it happened.
Example: Let’s say you’re sitting in church and someone jumps up and starts babelling. The next thing you see is a non believing visitor or someone that is bilinqual and they can with out hesitation know what was said. Wouldn’t it be incredible if a curious Muslim heard it in Arabic. If that did not edify everyone their and make that Muslim convert right then and there, I don’t know what would.
I say if you can speak another discernable language through tongues all the power to you and go for it. If you’re babelling in your thoughts go for it. But I pray God’s mercy on those who are doing “shoobie do be do” pridefully.
Please Read Ezekiel (sp) 34 and tell others
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ, we are getting closer every second and I am excited and joyfully scared!
December 2, 2007 at 3:13 am
Zoe
I wouldn’t mind having my speaking in tongues “tested” but I don’t even know anyone who would do that. I’m not sure that kind of thing really works anyway. When I’m speaking in tongues it’s kind of like a right brain activity like humming. I can still think and do other things. It doesn’t feel like I’m taken over by anything so maybe I am just babbling and I’m not really praying, I really don’t know. Sometimes after I’ve been praying in tongues for a while I will write things in my journal and it seems like they are from God. Of course I test everything against scripture. It feels like God speaking to me but I could be wrong.
December 2, 2007 at 5:37 am
Mary
Zoe,
I know I have no place really because I don’t speak in tongues. So someone please correct me if they think I am wrong. I would image if you are speaking in tongues by the power of God you would feel edified in your spirit just as regular prayer or interceeding, or any other gift of God. It would seem to me if one were speaking by the power of a demonic being you could sense something isn’t right or edifying. yes, no?????
December 2, 2007 at 5:48 am
Zoe
Mary,
I feel comforted sometimes when I speak in tongues and other times as if I am interceding for others, especially when I wouldn’t know what to pray otherwise. I just read 1 Cor. 12 and 14 over several times and I don’t feel like what I am doing seems contradictory to scripture. I just get confused when I read so many different views from people who I am sure have more theological knowledge than I do and than I start to question myself.
December 2, 2007 at 7:37 pm
jb
Zoe,
Be confident in the Lord. Test all things. If you’ve been given this gift, it’s fantastic.
I just wonder why there is such a high ratio of gifts of tongues compared to the other gifts, like healing or prophecy. My only conclusion is that this is the only powerful gift that can be “self given” by pride to “show” others how spiritual they are.
We all need to pray for these gifts. One more comment with regards to the article: If we are born again with the indwelt Holy Spirit, how does a demon come into us and control us? I would think the Holy Spirit would be powerful enough to reppel any small demon. I am aware of back sliding or falling away christians, but if a person is so filled with the Holy Spirit while praying and being surounded by the Spirit, it seems to me demons would have no access unless the demon was there all a long, thus the person was not born again of the Holy Spirit, thus a truly demonic tongues.
My love to all of you. Read Ez 34
December 2, 2007 at 8:56 pm
das1217
In all of my questions in the last year about what is and is not of God, this has been one that I have put on the back burner. This post brings to mind to me this morning a situation a couple of years ago that I questioned the gift of tongues. A few friends and I had gone to a conference in California. During one afternoons free time we took the opportunity to walk the shops area of the town. One of the women (one who claims to be prophetic) said “Wouldn’t it be fun to walk around having a conversation in tongues to see people’s reactions?” And they did (or so they seemed to). At the time I was horrified because I thought the gift of tongues was personal in your relationship with the Lord. They thought this was absolutely hilarious to do.
I believe this gift is truly manifested only when it is led by the Holy Spirit. I personally have experienced it but only in my prayer time. It began when my daughter attempted to commit suicide and I found I simply had no words to pray. I truly believe the Holy Spirit gave me a way to pray. And to this day that is the only time I have this gift. When I pray.
December 2, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Mary
JB,
Yes I forgot about that. The question is can a true born again believer come under the possession or control of a demon? I don’t think the scriptures teach it. This is an area I have questions about. But then again look at brownsville, and TACF. Those were believers who were manifested demons or were given over by God to the power of satan.
December 3, 2007 at 12:01 am
Kim
http://www.intotruth.org/dev/gayle.html
I thought this was an interesting account of a new believer who received spiritual gifts by “transfer” from another woman.
Mary i wonder too about how a Christian can be possessed by a demon. At this point i believe that a Christian can be influenced, harrassed, be oppressed, or be in bondage to demons. But a true regenerate Christian…i do not believe can be totally demon possessed.
It would seem as though from what i have read from others who have allowed another spirit into their life that somehow the Lord has given them warning. Remember what happened to Pastor Paul Gowdy at TACF? He said:
“I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme ‘Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.’ came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? Was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin.”
In the woman’s story in the above link she describes how the voice she heard had turned into a mocking voice. The voice she had been “listening” to had been a demon.
The Lord gives Christians warnings to turn away from the sin that they have allowed.. and i say allowed because there seems to be the desire for experience or special knowledge that leads one astray and into sin.
December 3, 2007 at 12:17 am
Kim
I Want said:
“It almost has a Hank Hanagraff thing in some of the ways of testing and I am a bit wary of some of that kind of stuff. Just my opinion.”
I too am uncertain of the testing methods in the article I posted. I do not believe we are to address demons or Satan, (as in spiritual warfare), but that we are to discern the spirit and confront our idolatry with scripture. If the spirit is not from God then repentance is necessary. In the instances of Paul Gowdy and Gayle from the article from IntoTruth, both repented.
December 3, 2007 at 5:04 am
jb
Kim,
Great post! I only wonder if we are giving Satan or demons too much credit when instead we should be concentrating on Jesus.
PRIDE!!!! That’s what I’m mean when I say people babel to show how spiritual they are. It mocks the Holy Spirit if it is not from God. We are on a discernment website here.
Hope, Love, Faith, but most of all love.
Have a wonderful week, I love you all.
December 4, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Bill
Ruark’s test is quite novel, and probably biblically unsubstantiated. To be consistent, we should busy ourselves testing those manifesting other spiritual gifts, such as helps. I’m sure the deacons would appreciate it.
I am unfamilar with the “spirit of tounges” which I cannot find in my bible (likewise, no reference to the “spirit of helps”).
And the empahsis of looking for demons under every stone within the church reminds me of the excesses of the charismatic church in the 70s, when they cast demons out of every thing that moved.
I would propose instead that there may be spiritual gifts exercised in a fleshly manner. In this case, Ruark’s test is meaningless.
Moving in the flesh is common in most all types of churches. God help us when the spirit testers arrive. I’d like to see the service when the pastor is tested.
How ’bout we just stop making stuff up to suit our doctrines?
-Bill
December 4, 2007 at 8:22 pm
IWanthetruth
I was re-reading this thread and came to the realization that the Bible already gives us a test for the “real-ness” of a “tongue”. It needs to be interpreted and then the interpretation must be tested to the scriptures.
If it is not interpreted then the person must keep quite.
1Cr 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 1Cr 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
Chapter 14 of Acts in the ESV version is quite clear about the operation of tongues, it’s use and it’s purpose.
December 4, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Kim
1 Corinthians 12:1-3 also talks of how to test the gifts. I believe that this would include all of the spiritual gifts.
“Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed, and no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:4
“There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 John 4:1-3
“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. The is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
Do these verses tell us that we can test the spirit of the tongue, (spiritual gift) because the Corinthians verse says the gifts are a spirit of God or manifestation of the Spirit, and therefore can be tested by methods in Corinthians and 1 John?
My question is, if this is so, then is Ruark’s test biblical?
December 4, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Bill
Good points, but something is still amiss. I don’t see the Ruark test applied to other gifts. Why single out tounges? It is that offensive?
If I heard a prophecy, an interpetation, or a teaching that said “Jesus be cursed” I would recognize the spirit behind such a statement. However, 1 cor 12:1-3 does not seem to suggest that we flippantly pose that question to anyone exercising any gift in the church.
1 John 4:1-3 talks about testing spirits, not gifts. I’m sorry; The use of 1 Cor 1:4 to try to equate the two is lame.
I have seen plenty of tounges in the flesh. I personally have not witnessed what I believe was a demonic false tounge. The Ruark test therefore is practically useless. In like manner, I have seen prophecy in the flesh, teaching in the flesh, even helps in the flesh. Again the Ruark test would probably have no benefit.
It also opens up the age old question- can a Christian be demon possessed?
In charismania, when they talk about manifestations, it usually refers to twitching, jerking, shaking and other Toronto-style nonsense. Tounges is not considered a manifestation in the same manner; it is a gift. There is no gift of jerking, although some might accused me of being a gifted jerk.
Derek Prince had a very good teaching about manifestations- a four part series where he talks about a mixture of spirits. Sobering stuff.
“But with regard to any kind of manifestation, there are two questions that I always want to ask. Number one: Is it a manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God? Or is it a manifestation from some other source? And number two (and this is related to it): Is the manifestation in question in harmony with Scripture?”
http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm
I actually have the audio on this and it is quite interesting.
December 4, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Kim
Well, i use the 1 John 4:1-3 passage for myself because i test EVERY spirit, whether it be a gift of the spirit or the spirit of a prophet.
December 5, 2007 at 1:48 am
jb
Kim,
The two instances I have witnessed (3 women, two one time and one at another time) were IMO fleshy and pride. These women however are dear friends and christianly women. To test them by asking would seem sooooo embarrassing, to them and me. “How dare I imply that it would be none other than the spirit!”, I can see it now.
My family and I just left an AOG church because of some very weird stuff, and the gifts were one of them. They did some guys test to find out what gifts you have.
Guess what? I was into new age scientology before Jesus called me (his saving grace) and IT WAS THE EXACT SAME TEST!
When we get red flags, I think we need to go with that. Discernment is not necessarily a gift is it? We should have more of it as we become stronger believers in Christ.
Bill has a point, we test the spirit, not the gift. But if someone is doing it because they want to portray gifts, and how spiritual they are, God have mercy on them. As a doctor I am suppose to have the gift of healing, but do I realy? If treatment or medicine isn’t given, do they get better? They don’t walk in and have me yell at them and they walk out with sight. If I had the power of the Holy Spirit to heal, I believe they could. No, the miracles of healing done through the spirit I have seen with the power of prayer- lots of it, but I have never witnessed someone heal someone like the NT. Why always tongues?
Edify and encouragement needs to be made or it is useless to everyone present, just like Paul said.
December 5, 2007 at 3:36 am
IWanthetruth
When we get red flags, I think we need to go with that. Discernment is not necessarily a gift is it? We should have more of it as we become stronger believers in Christ.
Yes we need to go with the red flags, or atleast allow the red flag to move us into research so that we can “discern” something is right or wrong using scripture to test.
Is there a Gift of Discernment?
I believe there is. I think this Gift is given as needed when we are speaking of the things of Jesus. It is a move of the Holy Spirit upon us or to us in order to validate Jesus. It is a special moment when we are able to discern something that can only have been given to us by God through the Holy Spirit. I am trying to think of an example from the scriptures and can’t at the moment. I’ll check into it when I get home.
Are you a physician? of What? I also am in the medical field…
December 5, 2007 at 3:48 am
Kim
Wow, tell us about the test that was given.. i am interested..I hear from New Agers who have left the movement for Jesus Christ and that they are seeing the exact same mysticism that they left, in the church. Brian Flynn’s book is a good example.
Discernment is a gift but we all need to pray for discernment and wisdom in these times.
1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I know what Bill is saying but i believe “spiritual gifts” are from the Holy Spirit, or least should be! I believe we are seeing gifts that are NOT from the Holy Spirit and of course that is where the problems lie. To test a gift is to test the Spirit behind it. I believe the two are not separate. A gift is given from someone….who is the question. Counterfeit gift…counterfeit spirit. True gift…Holy spirit.
I have had instances that the gift of discernment was given to me directly by the Lord. I have had two situations this year that the Lord revealed false prophets to me. One time i just heard the words in my spirit, HE IS A FALSE PROPHET, and the next time, i could feel a so-called prophets’ evil deep in my being, when i was contemplating what his words were. Later i dreamt of his evil intentions. These things occur when i least expect it. I always question these things and pray about them before i accept them as from the Lord.
Anyway i don’t want to bore you..i want to hear about those test that were the same as scientology.
December 5, 2007 at 4:38 am
Bill
>I have had two situations this year that the Lord revealed false prophets to me.
Happens all the time. And you don’t need the Ruark test. It’s called discernment and its sadly missing in the church today.
(I’m still laughing- Ruarch is greek for “sprirt” is it not?)
Yeah, I was put through one of those “finding your spiritual gifts” workshops. Nonsense.
December 5, 2007 at 4:51 am
Mary
Wait,
I thought the gift is discernment of the spirits which I don’t know exactly what that is. I thought you gave a good example Kim where you discerned that false prophets evil motives. So now you got me interested in just what discernment of the spirits is.
December 5, 2007 at 5:14 am
IWanthetruth
1Cr 12:4 – 11 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (ESV)
Well, according to this version (ESV) it is the ability to distinguish between spirits.
Holy Spirit vs demonic(?) or fleshly(?) or both? I suppose the perfect example would be Jesus when he had to confront the enemy when ministering to people, even with Peter.
December 5, 2007 at 6:45 am
Kim
Hi Mary,
I don’t talk much about the certain situations where the Lord has given me discernment because of the nature of the circumstances. The Lord helped me in dealing with a false prophet in a flurry of emails and with another situation. I also met with a medium, (which you know about) and i needed special discernment and prayer before this occurred.
These situations were different from the discernment i pray for in everyday situations and the discernment i learn about in research. The Lord has given me a special gift of discernment for certain occasions and it was nothing of myself. He gets all the glory.
December 5, 2007 at 7:13 am
Mary
Amen,
He gets all the glory. I recall once I may have had it happen to me as a new believer. My friends and were sitting in a dinner right after church. A woman overheard our conversion and wanted to talk to us about the Bible. I really knew very little about the Bible or apologetics except the gospel verses that I memorized. But I could feel this presence in her. Kind of like pig pen on charlie brown only it wasn’t a dust cloud surrounding her just pure darkness. My friends felt it too. She didn’t admit it at first but she was a Jehovah’s Witness. Sadly this discernment isn’t as powerful in my anymore. I guess it was given to us for that brief time. I think I don’t walk as closely with the Lord as I did then and that’s why.
December 5, 2007 at 7:17 am
Mary
So IWANT or Kim, can you define destinquishing between spirits or am I being annoying. I just can’t define it in my mind. What is it- ability to discern between fleshly/soulish motives, verses the demonic ?
December 5, 2007 at 8:04 am
Mary
“Holy Spirit vs demonic(?) or fleshly(?) or both? I suppose the perfect example would be Jesus when he had to confront the enemy when ministering to people, even with Peter.”
oh sorry IWANT,
Missed that comment. Guess you answered my question Holy Spirit vs demonic(?) or fleshly(?) or both? I suppose the perfect example would be Jesus when he had to confront the enemy when ministering to people, even with Peter.;)
December 5, 2007 at 8:58 am
Kim
Mary,
Just got home…answered earlier from work. good thing i own my own business.. i would have to fire myself for how much time i peek at my website.
I believe your story about the woman wanting to talk about the Bible and what you sensed in her is a perfect example of discerning the spirit. I think it is given to us when we need it most. When you said “I could feel this presence in her”, this is a remarkable situation in which the Lord gave you information about her so that you determine her needs and how she could be helped.
The prophet who i had to deal with commented on my Dominionism blog long time ago, back in July i think. I get hate comments mostly from the dominionism blog (joels army, the new reformation, The Elijah list) and the Yoga blog.
I had to delete his comment and i emailed the Prophet and told him why i did so. Everything was fine at first and then he got progressively worse. I had to end my conversation with him. While doing the dishes and thinking about this poor fellow, I received such a sense of evil that it deeply disturbed me. It felt like blackness and heaviness. I knew it was about him and i was being told that he was deeply involved in the occult. I backed off from him and now just pray for him.
December 5, 2007 at 9:08 pm
jb
Kim,
The testing was Bruce Bugbee’s. I know there are other tests, and haven’t seen them.
I grew up in UT as a R. Catholic- it was tough. Got into mysticism at the young age of 13 reading Napolean Hill, and the like who are considered christian writings. They are ALL like The Secret that has hit stores as of late. I had a very big library of this kind of stuff, tapes, workbooks etc.
I was about 29 when I got saved, after years of me, me, me, me, I, I, I, and was not fulfilled. I had Night Terrors that would make your Hair stand on end starting in HS. After being saved, I haven’t had one! The first one I don’t remember, but my parent do and they had to hold me down while swore at the top of my lungs, was sweating and also called on Jesus, which they said didn’t stop the terror. Woke up the next day very rested and had no idea it happened. Then I started to remember them. I truly believe they were from tormenting demons.
Anyway, didn’t want to get off topic- just answering the new age Q.
I am here to tell you after leaving AOG that is into new age, we have visited 6-7 churches that all smell of new age junk. We have good friends who are pastors of some of these. I don’t know what to think because it comes from above them- where they get church growth stuff “that people want in their churches” yuck.
People will not “fall away on purpose (no pun), they will be led away.”
December 5, 2007 at 11:14 pm
Mary
Hi Kim,
Thanks. I have alot of questions about this since the church I became a believer in and the ministries I was involved in didn’t teach anything about this. Actually I had a similar experience like JB in HS also having night terrors or a demonic visitation. Despite my rituals of praying on the rosary, reading a catholic book of prayers, and having catholic idols in my room, I felt no peace until I became a believer. I just wish the reformed church was a bit more better equipped to acknowledge this stuff and the true gifts of the Holy Spirit. Actually, you are one of the few in the reformed church that I have ever had the pleasure to meet (via the www.) that has an understanding about it. I know there are others out there I just havent met them.
December 5, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Mary
Actually, I felt like there was something wrong with me because no one believed me.
December 6, 2007 at 2:06 am
jb
Mary,
I’m with you. I’ve never told anyone, but my parents and my wife (as my wife saw me go through one that actually included a serpent).
We go to a Calvary church now, and I thoroughly interviewed the pastor because we gave so much to the AOG, not just tithe, but volunteer time. We just attend now and have no intention to volunteering yet.
He believes and acknowledges gifts. I don’t know if he has experienced them himself or from someone else, and we really like that he did not grow up a christian, so he knows the difference from the world and Christ.
I think that charismatics personally feel as though they have to have or protray gifts and I can only speak from personal experience, but it deeply troubles and saddens me when my red flags go up with people I know have a love for Jesus. If you look up some of the gifts type programs, they’re mainly to show personality types for sheep volunteer placement ie. greeter, childrens ministries. You’ll be pigeon holed for your type, I cannot tell you if this can actually guilt someone into a position or not. I do know that it can have repercussions within your “group”. Oh, ya sure your church doesn’t have cliques. A long with “membership 101” etc. These things are growth/bonding things and are new age.
December 6, 2007 at 2:29 am
Bill
>I am here to tell you after leaving AOG that is into new age
jb, just to make it clear, A/G (AOG in Austrailia) is a fellowship, not a denomination. As they say, “your mileage may vary” with individual churches. Many have become quite charismatic, some to the point where they have left the fellowship (Bethel Church in Redding CA, for example).
On the other hand, if you will examine the A/G position papers on the A/G US website, you will not find any evidence of “new age” practices. In fact you will find the official positions at odds with many charismatic practices.
It was the A/G that rejected, more than 50 years ago, the latter rain doctrines that are the cornerstone of the prophetic/third-wave/charismatic church today.
I’m glad you have found a good Cavary Chapel church, which I think hightly of. I suppose there may be variations within iundividual churches, as with most denominations.
-Bill
December 6, 2007 at 2:30 am
IWanthetruth
JB
I have recently left the 4square church, very Purpose Driven and moving into Emergent. My red flag raised when the “prophetic movement” teachings were creeping in and I had a pastor tell me thay wanted to set up a booth to interpret dreams at the summer festival of our community.
Yike!
I am looking at the local Calvary Chapel as well. I have attended a couple of times and was pleased with the teaching. I know thatthe church (Calvaries in general) believe in the gifts of the spirit but are not demonstrative in the manifesting of the gifts.
I myself would not be upset if I never saw the gifts manifested in a public/corporate gathering again only because I know that the spirit of God is moving in my personal life and that is sufficient for me. I also realize that if the Holy Spirit wants to “work” a gift(s) as needed in a ministry time while sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is fine. But not seeking after gifts but the Giver of all gifts.
Thanks for your inputs on this site.
IWant
December 6, 2007 at 3:00 am
Bill
More on Spritual Gifts workshops-
I was on the road yesterday and in a hurry.
The workshops that I have experienced in the c’matic church on identifying your gifts are generally a variation on the classic Myers-Briggs® tests. As such, I think they may identify natural talents, but not necessarily gifts. Which is quite carnal, don’t you think?
Furthermore, they results are often used to try to force people into a specific mold of what they think those in ministry should be like. There is hardly an ounce of “pastoral” in my body. It would be a mistake to try to make me pastoral, yet that is what many would have liked to do.
I think anyone who has a real gifting or calling on their lives would probably know what it is, and those who don’t should chill out, read the word, and serve in various capacities in a limited manner. God will speak to us outside of some psycological testing.
In many cases the results will be used by church leadership to “control” people as well. Shades of the discipleship movement.
-Bill
December 6, 2007 at 3:37 am
Mary
Sounds like spiritual gift workshops are the same in any church.
I was also given the Myers – Briggs personality test in the youth group I was involved with. I thought it only helpful to understand conflict resolution with other staff. And I think I retook it in marriage prep. but I know what you mean Bill, it may help people in career choices but I can’t see how it helps in understanding spiritual gifting.
December 6, 2007 at 4:46 am
jb
Bill,
You are right I should call it A/G, and I probably read the same thing you did regarding A/G and the rejection of latter rain etc., but please look at this:
http://www.discernment-ministries.org/NLSeptOct_2005.htm
If you go up on this site you’ll see disc. minist., click on a/g updates (I think, or archives) and look at their training material. This is new age. Remember churches use to be against homosexuals in the pulpit too.
Calvary Chapels are not the end all either, many are succumbing to emergent and contemplative. We were just hungry for the word, and didn’t need a Sunday pep talk to get us to next Sunday, which is what is going on in a lot of churches- with a little, “Oh, ya- a Corinthians chptr/John something or other and Romans this,” Having dinner with our ex-pastor one night and I didn’t even realize he’ld never mention revelations (he didn’t), said people couldn’t hear/understand it (What about the whole counsel of God- every word of every chapter of every book?). I can’t figure out why a tithing, bible reading, volunteering, devout Jesus follower, born, raised christian couldn’t hear/understand revelations. Then be asked to go through a gifts program, would if they couldn’t handle their gift?
We know many pastors in our community due to our kids knowing theirs. It’s not denomination or non-denomination any more to me. It’s strictly who the sheperd of the church is.
I am so sorry for going on, I have been reading this site for some time, as I have it saved. For some reason I felt compelled when this gift of tongues came up because I strongly think that people do not understand what it really means when the word tongues is used in the bible.
December 6, 2007 at 4:57 am
Kim
I have been poking around sites looking at both the Myers-Briggs and the Bugbee tests. The Myers-Briggs tests looks like it closely associated with Carl Jung and i wonder why these are being used in the church…Bugbee’s site promotes a book by Blackaby called Experiencing God. I can’t find much wrong here but you can’t always tell without buying the materials.
December 6, 2007 at 5:05 am
Kim
jb,
Discerment-ministries.org is an excellent site. I went to their seminar in Florida earlier this year. The herescope blog is great too. Both are on my blogroll. I met Jewel Grewe and Lynne and Sarah Leslie there.
December 6, 2007 at 5:45 am
jb
Kim,
Bruce Bugbee’s isn’t much different. It’s Carl Jung, and S. Freud psychology. My mother-in-law is a Psych Ther. and was raised Jewish and is athiest now. We have many long conversations. She is a little upset at times that her favorite daughter is now a born-again, but we pray for her and every time she visits she gets a little closer. I basicly use her methods on her- ask questions without judgemental response.
I think a great gift of tongues would be to speak plain english with encouragement. You don’t have to sight passages, or anything of that nature. Just show your love with encouraging words out loud with agreement to what might be said within a group or church. AMEN, etc. goes a long ways.
A great v. is Psalms 118:8. Ground yourself in The Word, and don’t become a Lot’s wife.
Love to you all.
December 6, 2007 at 6:04 am
Kim
Mary and JB,
Thank your sharing your past experiences. What a help this is to others who may be experiencing these horrible things right now and can know from your examples, that the answers lie in Jesus Christ.
I am wondering if anyone can translate the words in the picture at the top of my article…i haven’t a clue what it says…..someone may be out there laughing because it is explaining how to pluck a chicken or something equally amusing…
December 20, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Jesus
When I first saw the site I have some different script I think its Japanese or Chines like that and got confused with that ofter I realized and gone through the post and it is a great on discerning the gift of tongues. Thanks for sharing rare information.
February 29, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Leigh
Greetings in the Name of Christ. I have just found your site and read all the comments on tongues. This is an article I wrote on another site.
I myself have been in deliverance ministry for 23 years and in that period have had about 45 Pentecostals come to me to have their “gift” tested. About 40 have turned out to be vile cursing demons using the tongue to praise Satan and blaspheme the Lord Jesus Christ. The others would not admitt that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and therefore was either demonic or was of the flesh.
One particularly strong spirit that manifested during the test eventually confessed that it entered through the laying on of hands. It’s works were tongues and prophesy but it had further ground and would not leave. Demons are very legalistic and will hold on until the last bit of ground is surrended to the Blood of Christ.
It’s name was the “physical manifestations of the Pentecostal movement”. The final pieces of ground were ,jumping up and down and lifting hands to Satan. When asked what it was saying in tongues it said glorifying my master Satan and cursinf the Lord Jesus Christ.
Another case was an elderly missionary who had practiced her “gift” for 41 years. It had helped her win souls, kept her closer to the Lord, strengthened her witnessing on the mission field. She was sure that her “gift” was of the Holy Ghost. While the tongue was in manifestation, I put to the spirit the test as of 1 John 4:1-4, is Jesus Christ come in the flesh? Instantely a raging demon burst forth and twisted her face and hands and tried to scratch out my eyes. Praise the Lord I had on my Armor and it could not reach me.
This same lady after these demons were cast out returned for more councelling and as we prayed she fell to the floor on her knees with her hands clasp in prayer begging me and saying to me ” I am a good spirit, do not cast me out, I’m a spirit of God, I love Jesus.” But when I asked if it loved the Jesus that died on the Cross and shed His blood for….. sins, it became another foul cursing spirit to be sent to the pit.
One of the objections that I come across when asking Pentecostals to have their tongue tested is that it would grieve the Holy Spirit. My reply is that it was the Holy Spirit that inspired the Apostle John to write the verses in 1 John 4:1-4 so He would be more grieved should they not obey the Word of the Lord.
I would recommend that all Christians should read the unabridged version of WAR ON THE SAINTS by Jessie Penn Lewis as this works co authored by Evan Roberts grew out of the 1904 Welsh Revival where the workings of the Devil manifested along side of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It details the wiles of the Devil and is a classic warfare manual.
Ernest Rockstad was also an early pioneer with Raurk and McGraw and his teachings can be obtained from http://www.faithandlifeministries.com
He has on tape sessions of testing of Supernatural Tongues that can be purchased.
I have tested many tongues over the phone also, one from Australia to USA which proved to be demonic. My own findings agree with Raurk and McGraw at least 95% are demonic and the other 5% are suspect.
It is up to every Christian to be a “Good Berean” for we are warned in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
“14) And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed* into an angel of light. 15) Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
Blessings in Christ. Leigh
February 29, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Kim
This is a very interesting report you have given..i am impressed that your findings are similar to Raurk and McGraw. I did order the book War on the Saints but the site you cited has a warning, that i believe was something technical. So i ordered the book from Alibris.
Some will be confused by your findings and others relieved that they do not have this questionable gift. I am one of the latter.
February 29, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Mary
Kim,
I am completely confused. Some people I respect think tongues is nearly the only proof of having the Holy Spirit others say speaking in tongues is nearly in all cases demonic. I don’t speak in tongues but know others who do. I trust their discernment. I am really going coo coo over this cause there are very respectable people on both sides so why is it so confusing?
Leigh,
Are you a cessationist? I am in no way trying to be contentious, I am just completely unsure where I stand in my understanding of all this.
February 29, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Kim
I have read an account of someone else who discerned a false spirit over the telephone. A woman had called to give this man a prophecy. He asked the spirit she was prophecying from, “Did Jesus come in the flesh?” The spirit answered, “Well she thinks so!”. He replied “Wrong answer” and hung up. I will have to find this article….
This is a very sensitive subject and i wish i could whisper a response instead of typing it. I believe that this gift is mostly counterfeit. Once i was surrounded by people speaking tongues at a conference and it was not uplifting to me at all.
I left wondering why i did not have this gift..Later i prayed about it and the Lord told me, I already had a gift.. This made me feel shamed for asking. I was not admonished about asking about the gift of tongues itself and therefore i do believe it does exists but not to the extent that we see today.
I do not believe it proves anything spiritual in a person because i have seen vidoes of people consumed with the serpent power, kundalini, speaking in tongues. Natives practicing rituals can also speak in tongues. For every true gift from the Holy Spirit , there is a counterfeit gift from the evil one.
Oh Lord, I pray for discerment and wisdom about this issue.
March 1, 2008 at 5:32 am
Mary
Thanks Kim,
I agree. I thought it interesting that in Elise’s testimony, the priest with the ministry of exorcism mentioned that one of the signs of demon possession was speaking in a language that the possessed person had no knowledge of.
It’s one of those things where I have heard it used and it didn’t detract at all from the praying/worship time and other times I felt really uncomfortable in my spirit. I became born again in a church that had a good number of people who did have that gift and that church had the greatest spirit of agape love there that I have ever experienced and doubt I ever will this side of heaven. But then our church split over the issue.
I guess with anything there is a mix of good and bad.
March 1, 2008 at 7:39 am
Leigh
I thank each of you for your replies. I do believe that these gifts were given for the specific reason for the proclamination of the Gospel. If you were to understand the greek in the passage in 1 Cor 13: 8-10 the termonology used says ” cease completely.” when “that which is perfect comes”. I am no Greek scholar but when I investigated this passage the majority of Greek scholars agree that ” the perfect” is a neuter noun. Therefore it cannot be the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe like them it is the Cannon of Scripture, the Word of God.
Also a study of the gifts will show that they were Apostolic just like the sings and wonders. It was to testify to the Power of Christ in them. Historically the writings of the early Fathers do not mention tongues as neither does the latter Epistles. Certainly the Apostle John in Revelation would have mentioned them should it have been valid for the future of the Christian Church.
One of the best books on this subject is Tongues by Merrill Unger. I cannot fault his reasoning for the cessation.
I can only say to those who claim this gift that they should obey scripture in 1 John 4:1-4 and test the spirits. I have many sessions of testings on CD but I do not know how to get it out there to those who are reading this article.
Regarding Elsie’s testimony. I cannot believe that she is free because the Catholic Church is not a true Christian Church., It is the Whore of Babylon. I have had to cast out many Catholic demons even in my wife whose generations were all Catholic. These demons admitted allegience to the Pope. While questioning one called Dargon { a high Freemasonry and Catholic demon} I said that when Christ comes with His Holy Angels to war against Antichrist they will all be cast into the pit. Dargon said ” the pope and his demons would fight Christ and His angels.
By the way the Pope’s Mitre is actually a symbol of the fish god DARGON.
March 1, 2008 at 7:41 am
Leigh
Just to finish, War on the Saints can be obtained directly from the publisher.
Thomas E Lowe.
March 1, 2008 at 7:53 am
Leigh
Mary, I understand where you are coming from. It is confusing and the only way to know the truth is to test all things by the Word of God. 1Thess 5:21.
Many who have this gift are truely genuine Christians, but they have believed that ALL supernatural happenings come from the Holy Spirit instead of testing the spirits.
There are a couple of DVDs available that may open your eyes. Be ready for a shock because you will find it hard to believe that this could be a genuine moving of the Holy Spirit.
Wolves among the Sheep is one and the other is The Blind and the Dead by Texe Marrs. Another one is Signs and Wonders 1&2.
I might just remark that Jessie Penn Lewis and Evan Roberts who were God’s instruments in the 1904 Welsh Revival found that among the mighty moving of the Holy Spirit that set Wales and England ablase were just as many counterfeit spirits of Satan at work in believers. This is why they wrote War on The Saints. It is a manual to teach believers how to recognize their workings. But buy the unabridged version as later editions have been severely edetited of many powerful passages on how the believer can be invaded by evil spirits.
Blessings in Christ. Leigh