When studying false ministries or New Age religion I always seem to end up at Genesis 3:5, and there is a reason for this. It is so applicable in today’s world. We always hear that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Unfortunately Satan’s lies fall under the first two categories. We can look forward to the day when Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed but until that day we will have to stand up to him using God’s word as our armor.
Let’s take a closer look:
Genesis 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (NIV)
Consider these statements from Word of Faith promoters….
Kenneth Copeland “You’re all God. You don’t have a God living in you; you are one.”
Paul Crouch “I am a little God!…I have his name. I’m one with Him. I’m in covenant relation. I am a little god!. Critics, be gone!”
Benny Hinn “When you say I am a Christian, you are saying, I am mashiach in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words, that is a shocking revelation ..May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around.”
It seems as though those who stray too far from the Word of God become unscriptural or twist its meaning. The phrase “and you will be like God” is spoken by the serpent in the garden of Eden. Oh, what power the serpent can have over us. Look at Adam and Eve. Here they were living in a virtual paradise, all their needs were met, they communed directly with God, and yet……they were tempted by the desire to know more…to be like God.
There are three temptations Satan used on Eve to entice her to disobey the commandment of God in Genesis 3:3 which is:
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
TEMPTATION 1
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Hath God Indeed Said?
Notice how the serpent took a commandment from God and changed it into a question. He asked Eve: “Yea, hath God said..?”or…. Did God really say? Satan created a seed of doubt in Eve’s mind. Now she may have asked herself in response to this question: Why is God withholding this beautiful fruit from me? Surely, God would not hold back His blessings from me. Did I misunderstand?
TEMPTATION 2
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Surely you will not die.
Now that the seed of doubt was planted, Satan contradicted God’s word outright, with “surely you will not die”. Eve’s fear of death was removed by this lie. God said that even if she touched the fruit she would die. When the consequence of disobedience is removed, sin is meaningless.
TEMPTATION 3
Genesis 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
You shall be like God.
After Satan first questioned the Word of God then openly defied it, he then tempted with a new thought. You will be as God. Doesn’t this speak to our pride. That somehow we are in control of our own life and our destiny without Jesus Christ as our Lord. That God’s plan for our lives is not good enough for us. Our way is better than His way.
Can you see the sequence of these three temptations? Satan first used a suggestion to create doubt, then he defied scripture and then baited the trap with deity of self.
Of course this has been happening since the fall of man but you can see it easily in today’s world. The questioning of the Bible. It is authentic? Then the rejection of His word or the twisting of it by man’s sorry translations of today. Then the practices of meditation coming into the churches. Meditation invites oneself to go within. To look within for the answers.
THE ANSWERS ARE NOT WITHIN. THE ANSWERS ARE IN THE HOLY BIBLE. ALL OF THEM. ALL THE ANSWERS FOR HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFE. THE BIBLE IS OUR OWNER’S MANUAL. CHERISH IT. READ IT. PRAY WITH IT. (whew! sorry for yelling)
The New Age/Emergent Church is coming on strong and this will be the trend till the end of time. Theosophy teaching reveals that their goal is to introduce mystism, especially Buddhism and Hinduism into the West and into the churches. OUR churches. Yours and mine!!!! And I can assure you it is happening. The blending of Eastern religion into the West is rampant. Consider how President Bush just warmly received the Dalai Lama. I have read of goddess worship, labryinths, celtic worship, Taize, Yoga, meditation by contemplative prayer in the evangelican churches all across the country. These activities have been advertised in my local newspaper in the religion section. So, when is the New Age? It is NOW. It is here. It is in our churches as I speak…er…write!
There is tremendous power for the Christian who is trying to stay from deception by remembering Genesis. The three lies of Satan can help us detect deception in the false ministries, false teachings, and new age philosophy of today’s ever increasing sinful ways.
1. Did God really say? (Here read my book instead * The Bible is irrevelant)
2. You will not die. (Sin doesn’t exist * there is no hell * reincarnation)
3. You shall be like God. (God is already within all of us * man is divine * we are one with the universe)
Let’s turn this around so we can find the truth!
We are not like God. We are fallen and sinful. But when we confess our sin, repent by turning away from sin, and call on Jesus Christ and follow Him as Savior, we can have eternal life. God’s Word is true, inerrant, and available for all who believe in Him. There is only one way to resist the sin that is presented to us on a silver platter day in and day out. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit.
When confronted with their sin, Adam blamed Eve, and then Eve blamed the serpent. Who are you blaming for your sin or disbelief? Are you puffed-up, full of pride, relying on yourself instead of God? Are you trying to do things your way instead of God’s way? Will you rely on God’s strength instead of your own?
kim
serpent poster from:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/posters.htm
Motivational Posters for the Emerging Church.
155 comments
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November 12, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Lee
John,
Without even reading your book “Covens in the Church” I’ll take a stab at the basic premise. I’d bet it’s based on misapplying the verse from 1 Samuel 15:23, “23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination…”
Am I right?
Here’s the verse in its entirety in its proper context:
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
he has rejected you as king.”
24 Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated the LORD’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them. 25 Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship the LORD.”
Saul very clearly did not obey a very specific command of the LORD; and, for this he was punished being rejected as king.
November 12, 2007 at 10:33 pm
John Burton
I’d encourage everybody to read “Under Cover” by John Bevere. Also, A Tale of Three Kings is a classic on the subject.
The Bible is very clear that we don’t only submit to leaders who are righteous.
God establishes all authority… presidents, police officers, pastors, school teachers, etc. I’d say most authority in the world doesn’t lead according to the Bible. The Bible talks about both good and evil authority.
The only time we are to not submit to a directive of an authority is if they were to require us to disobey very clear scripture absolutes. We’d not submit to that directive, but we’d still honor that leader.
Why would we assume we have liberty to submit to some and not to others?
To submit doesn’t mean we have to agree with our leadership. In fact, we can even talk with them about the issue. But in the end, out of love and humility and respect, we respond without gossip, without rising up in pride, etc.
November 12, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Kim
In your book “Covens in the Church” you say.
“It is never appropiate to shop for a church!”
“To ever leave a church on your own volition without counsel from your leaders (pastor, youth pastor, apostle. etc.) is at best detrimental and at worst sinful”
“Self-government has kept God’s official in your life from being able to assign you.”
“I’ll say it this way-we do not have an option to leave a church until we go through a significant and usually lengthy process and being sent out by the leaders……An individual never reassigns him or herself to a new church independent of counsel from their pastor.”
Is this what IHOP teaches?
November 12, 2007 at 11:28 pm
John Burton
I have no idea… I’ve not heard their thoughts on this.
November 12, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Kim
I asked because you said earlier you were on the IHOP staff.
November 12, 2007 at 11:53 pm
John Burton
The whole premise of that book is that God really is trustworthy. Often we find ourselves taking matters into our own hands and moving out of God’s will.
If a pastor is ‘evil’, trust God to deal with him. But, it’s a wonderful thing to remain in a position of love and service… and pray for him, encourage him, etc. Refuse to gossip, refuse to play the ‘I’m right, he’s wrong’ game… just love and intercede for him.
That’s not to say you can’t go to him and ask for his blessing for you to leave and attend another church. If you sends you on, then great. If not, and you feel strongly that you are to leave, pray hard, give it time and watch God work.
A key truth is that God would not create confusion by causing us to resist his own established authority.
If we are to respond this way even to evil, secular authority… then so much more to Christian authority, even if they are weak, immature or missing the mark.
November 13, 2007 at 1:07 am
Kim
I try to never take matters into my own hands because i always give them to the Lord.
I do not need the “blessing” from my pastor to attend another church. That is why i reject the five-fold ministry. Christ is the cornerstone and foundation. I am on the church council and yes there is a process to go through, but ultimately we all know that God is our Master. I will have to answer to Him on Judgment Day, not men.
Well off to work then Bible Study tonight.
November 13, 2007 at 3:55 am
Mary
John,
whew you scare me. What you really mean is drink the cool aid.
I agree with Sad Parent. I believe Ihop is close to being a cult if it isn’t one already.
November 13, 2007 at 6:04 am
John Burton
Mary, I’d encourage you to be much more careful… in your accusations. Spend some time at IHOP… it’s not that different of a place. I’m in the prayer room now… about 500 people just reading their bible, pacing and praying, worshipping, etc. Very healthy, fresh and freeing.
Regarding ‘drinking cool aid’… that’s a silly thing to say. You’re putting words in my mouth.
I understand you have some different ideas regarding submission and obedience… and that’s fine. But, don’t attack and don’t accuse with such a limited perspective and knowledge of the situation.
November 13, 2007 at 7:29 am
Mary
John,
For too long as a catholic I was ignorant of what the scriptures taught. I thank God for the many people who died to protect the truth of God’s word. I’m not about to gloss over false teaching when I hear it. Sorry but I can’t play your game.
November 13, 2007 at 8:07 am
John Burton
Then, what you are saying is that you will willingly attack and accuse even with limited knowledge of the situation? If you are a student of scripture you will know that this is not appropriate.
Certainly don’t be ignorant of the scripture… but also don’t give in to having a knee jerk reaction. I don’t sense much grace or humility in your responses.
Don’t go from unknowing to presuming yourself to be all knowing. It’s important for all of us to be teachable. These issues that we’re discussing aren’t new. The greatest scholars have debated them and have left the table without full agreement.
It seems as if you may have been hurt or disillusioned in the past. I pray that all is well. But, please be careful and don’t presume yourself to be the only expert on an issue.
November 13, 2007 at 9:48 am
Peg
Hi all,
I’m home from another day full of blessings at school. God is soooo good! 🙂
Back on topic, JB wrote:“It may take some discussion, but I tend to disagree with the following statement:
If something is patently illogical it is most likely not of God and can be dismissed on the grounds of reason alone even without supporting scriptures.
Good post, though Peg.”
Thanks! I’m open to edits and/or counter-proposals. How would you address the issue of reason? (this was a huuuuge question during the reformation btw)
I’m going to hop out and visit a few more web sites before commenting further, except for one item:
“God establishes all authority… presidents, police officers, pastors, school teachers, etc. I’d say most authority in the world doesn’t lead according to the Bible. The Bible talks about both good and evil authority.”
Yes… and in a democracy, to some extent at least, we have both the right and the responsibility to choose the people who are in authority. Presidents are scrutinized in the press, school teachers and police officers must pass all kinds of tests and background checks in order to do their jobs… but anyone can get themselves ordained online and call themselves a pastor!
There are sooooo many opportunities for abuse of authority in the church. How many stories have we heard about young people being molested while church hierarchies looked the other way? How many people have lost their faith entirely because they were unlucky enough to fall into a church that abused them emotionally or psychologically?
Abusers are always the first to say “no you can’t leave”. Abusers are the ones who will throw pages of Scriptures at you to get you to do what they want. Immature leaders are the ones who insist that all their people move in lock-step theologically. I for one will never attend a church that expects me to allow someone else to do my thinking for me.
So do I submit to my pastor, even though I know he’s not perfect? Of course. But I have known him for almost 25 years, and I know the one thing he wants more than anything else in life is to love and serve Jesus, and I know he is the only pastor the Lord has ever led me to. And he has never asked me to submit to him. If anything his attitude is “how can I serve you?” In fact the last time I met with him, his opening words were: “What can I do for you, Miss Peg?” …and this guy who writes books, gives evangelistic talks across the country, and runs a church of over 1,000 people proceeded to give me 1.5 uninterrupted hours of his time. Give me a pastor with that kind of servant’s heart and there’s no need to even talk about submission or authority. He commands my loyalty and my prayers just because he is such an incredible servant of God.
No way on God’s green earth I would ever submit to anything less than that! 😉
November 13, 2007 at 10:53 am
John Burton
The issue of submission is one that can take quite a bit of time to discuss. For a pastor or any leader to embrace control is wrong.
However, the enemy is so crafty. What has happened is that people who have been disappointed by their pastors have unwittingly embraced the same thing- control. They don’t want to ‘be controlled’ so they in turn ‘maintain control’ of their own lives. It’s the same spirit manifested differently.
Submission costs something. What has happened in the church is that leaders have been forced to relinquish their mantle of leadership… and instead lead only according to the direction the majority decides on.
A problem is that we as Americans live in a democracy. It’s hard for us to understand anything else. God’s Kingdom is not set up on that system.
People are so afraid of being abused that there has been a knee-jerk reaction… and now calls and challenges from visionary leaders often go unheeded because of inconvenience, disagreement, etc.
Under Moses leadership the people forced his hand. They took a vote and refused to enter the Promised Land. Under Joshua’s leadership, however, there was precision and quick response- even in the face of possible death.
November 13, 2007 at 10:56 am
Peg
OK I’m back from doing some reading.
Question: what is the “five-fold ministry”?
Mary wrote: “I thank God for the many people who died to protect the truth of God’s word.”
Amen. So many people throughout history have given their lives so we could have the Bible in our own hands, in our own language, painstakingly researched for accuracy and copied out by hand for centuries. I feel like All Saints Day is like the church’s Veterans Day — a day to remember all the people who died so we could know God.
After poking around their website, IHOP looks to me like just one more repackaging of the Charismatic teachings I used to come across all the time 25-30 years ago. I still have the same problems with it now that I did then: too much focus on personalities (you have to have heard of — or read books by — all the right big-name teachers), over-emphasis on being able to demonstrate spiritual gifts, too much focus on the work of the devil, too much focus on how the end times are going to happen, and not enough of teaching Jesus’ word.
I do like the idea of 24/7 prayer though… and IHOP is not the only organization I know of who is doing that kind of ministry. An idea like that is worth “borrowing” for use in all kinds of churches…
November 13, 2007 at 10:59 am
John Burton
Regarding logic, I wrote a book on the topic called “100% Effective Prayer”. Basically, in scripture we are told to “not lean on our own understanding”. There are many scriptures about the depths of God, about the unseen realm.
The point you made that I disagree with is that if something isn’t logical then it’s probably not God. I actually lean very much in the opposite direction.
When God leads, due to his supernatural perspective and due to his exponentially greater insight and wisdom, we should expect understanding of a matter to be based not on human wisdom but Godly wisdom.
From cover to cover in the Bible we see very strange and completely humanly illogical instructions and strategies. These seem to be the norm.
It’s when I’ve made decisions based on what God is telling me to do in that moment that some amazing miracles have happened. I write about some of them in the book. When I default to human reasoning my life tends to become quite mundane.
November 13, 2007 at 11:01 am
Peg
JB wrote: “A problem is that we as Americans live in a democracy. It’s hard for us to understand anything else. God’s Kingdom is not set up on that system.”
I’ll agree with you on that. I’ve often said to the folks at the church where I work: “God’s Kingdom is not a democracy!” But there is only one King, and that’s Jesus. The only other authority all people should recognize is the Bible.
November 13, 2007 at 11:11 am
John Burton
Just a quick response to your thoughts on IHOP… There seems to be so much misinformation about this ministry.
1. too much focus on personalities- The opposite actually happens here. The major focus around here is voluntary weakness… humility and brokenness. The superstar syndrome isn’t pursued here. However, I will say this. When God uniquely calls a certain person and gives him or her certain giftings… it should be expected that great things happen. It’s ok to see God working greatly through someone and then to desire to learn from them.
2. over-emphasis on being able to demonstrate spiritual gifts- This is guarded against very carefully. I recently sat in a service where they discussed this in detail. They don’t embrace an unruly display of ‘gifts’. They have a very balanced perspective.
3. too much focus on the work of the devil- This couldn’t be more untrue. One of the core values is God centered spiritual warfare. Basically what this means is that ‘spiritual warfare’ as we know it doesn’t happen. Worship is a primary method of warfare. Just exalting God and reading the scripture. That being said, I do think there is a time to deal with the enemy. It’s possible to be unbalanced… but we also can’t put our head in the sand.
4. too much focus on how the end times are going to happen- The focus on the end-times is very strong here. But, not to be sensational… but rather the study of the end-times gives us a clear grid on how to live today, and how to prepare for our life in the millennium.
5. not enough of teaching Jesus’ word- Again, not true of IHOP. I’ve never been involved in a ministry that is so Word centered. People here spend around 4-6 hours a day, 5 days a week in the prayer room where they read the Bible and study a lot. The teachings are deeply rooted in scripture. Very high quality.
One of the areas I teach on often is that of prayer as a primary ministry for every Christian. Simply being with God in an interactive and active way. Intentionally and continually. I believe this is part of the reformation that’s coming to the church. Returning to the model of the original church in Acts.
November 13, 2007 at 11:12 am
John Burton
The only other authority all people should recognize is the Bible.
Just curious… how does everybody reconcile the many scriptures that deal with submission to human authority?
November 13, 2007 at 11:27 am
Peg
What has happened is that people who have been disappointed by their pastors have unwittingly embraced the same thing- control. They don’t want to ‘be controlled’ so they in turn ‘maintain control’ of their own lives. It’s the same spirit manifested differently.
Not at all. Self-control is listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit. And every person has to answer for their own soul. On judgement day my pastor will not answer for what I have done, I will have to do that. (Tho I’ll be more than happy to give my pastor credit for the good stuff he has suggested that I have obeyed.)
<i.What has happened in the church is that leaders have been forced to relinquish their mantle of leadership… and instead lead only according to the direction the majority decides on.
What I have learned from watching my pastor is that if you lead with God’s love people will follow… he always has the majority. 😉
Basically, in scripture we are told to “not lean on our own understanding”.
That’s just one line from one proverb, which starts out by saying “trust in the Lord”. Here are some other verses:
Acts 17:2 – “Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures”
Acts 17:17 – “So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.”
Acts 18:19 – “They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.”
Acts 26:25 – “I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable.”
Heb 11:19 – “Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.”
I Peter 3:15 – “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. ”
…and that’s just a sampling. All told the word “reason” appears in nearly 70 different passages in the Bible. It’s not something to just brush aside. Our God is very much a God of reason.
As for the spiritual gifts — if they are being used properly in accordance with scripture there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about them.
November 13, 2007 at 11:30 am
Peg
Just curious… how does everybody reconcile the many scriptures that deal with submission to human authority?
It’s never been an issue.
November 13, 2007 at 11:33 am
Peg
Except, of course, when the head of the Episcopal church starts saying any old god will do… then we realize we’re talking about two different religions and move on.
November 13, 2007 at 11:40 am
John Burton
Self control should absolutely be embraced. That’s not the type of control I’m talking about.
In fact we should have self control over allowing a controlling spirit to flow through us.
It’s common for a board or a congregation to exercise control over a pastor… to attempt to make the decisions, to threaten, to split churches, etc.
What I’m saying is that it’s very important to not do that! God will often only reveal his directives through a certain person… and then that person relays the directives to the people. We see that all through scripture. The Moses/Joshua example is one of them. For a person to resist the directive simply isn’t healthy for the individual or the corporate group. People died because of majority vote under Moses leadership.
We can’t get around the verses that talk about submitting to leadership. If this wasn’t an important issue, it wouldn’t have been mentioned.
November 13, 2007 at 11:43 am
Peg
There seems to be so much misinformation about this ministry.
This isn’t misinformation, it’s what I just read on IHOP’s website (in fact the browser window is still open). My info is first-hand, not anyone else’s opinion. Granted it’s just my opinion, but most churches don’t have an entire page of “Affirmations and Denials” because they don’t need one… what they believe in is seen in what they do.
I’m not saying IHOP’s beliefs are unChristian, just saying it’s waaaay outside my comfort zone.
November 13, 2007 at 11:46 am
John Burton
The Episcopal church example is an excellent one. I am friends with a solid Christian Episcopal church leader… who’s caught in the middle of the scandal.
In this case it’s certainly appropriate to pronounce without apology that they stepped outside the bounds of the absolutes of Christianity.
It’s also appropriate to not murmur, gossip or slander. We pray for the leaders. Pray God has mercy on them. Love them.
For this church leader, her leaders embraced something unbiblical. But, they are still her leaders… so, she must handle the situation with integrity. She can submit while not obeying unrighteous commands. She can honor and serve without becoming arrogant. Sure, she should make steps toward dealing with the issue… even if it leads to eventually moving on.
November 13, 2007 at 11:50 am
Peg
It’s common for a board or a congregation to exercise control over a pastor…
Some churches are set up that way, others aren’t.
God will often only reveal his directives through a certain person… and then that person relays the directives to the people.
You do realize this is the same argument the Catholics give to support the priesthood and the Pope, right….? Doesn’t the scripture teach the priesthood of all believers? Or are we stepping away from the Reformation?
November 13, 2007 at 11:52 am
John Burton
I think the affirmations and denials are very important. They deal with the misinformation that’s flying around. You can see how some of the ideas that some have thought were true are actually not true.
Much change is coming in the end-times. Any time current systems that have become comfortable and familiar to people are threatened as fresh moves of God come, it is easy to resist it.
We can’t avoid the change. The tribulation period will bring massive change. The millennium period will be very different. Revival atmospheres are different. A massive influx of new believers into our churches will bring change. The way we ‘do church’ will be very different. 24/7 prayer is different. etc. So, we need to get ready.
November 13, 2007 at 11:55 am
Peg
We’re pretty much in agreement on the Episcopal church issue. After approx 40 years of negotiations and submission to apostate leadership the time has come to move on…
I gotta go catch some Zs…. will catch up with y’all later!
November 13, 2007 at 11:57 am
John Burton
It’s not about the priesthood of the believer… I believe we can all hear God, all have access to him. Rather, I’m talking about communication in regard to strategy and mission. God may speak to a person about how to evangelize a local high school, for example. God may give them the responsibility to see the mission through the the end over the next several years. He may burn night and day with this vision. He believes revival is coming. God gives him some key strategies. Now, this person does his best to gather some key people and relay the strategies to them. They get excited about it and rally behind this leader.
What I described above is simply a ‘church’. A person who’s called by God and presses toward a goal. People gain insight and join the mission. Now, along the way, people within the ranks will certainly hear from God themselves in regard to their role… or they may have an encouraging word for leadership, or may receive a burden for something specific. This is body life in action.
November 13, 2007 at 11:57 am
John Burton
Goodnight!
November 13, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Lee
God will often only reveal his directives through a certain person… and then that person relays the directives to the people. We see that all through scripture. The Moses/Joshua example is one of them. For a person to resist the directive simply isn’t healthy for the individual or the corporate group. People died because of majority vote under Moses leadership.
This is how God worked in the OT before the Holy Spirit indwelled believers. In the NT with the true believer Holy Spirit indwelled, God speaks to all who are open and receptive. If God gives a directive to one individual something meant for a larger group, others will be led in the same way.
November 13, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Kim
John,
You speak of a great revival.
I scrolled back and noticed your only reference to scripture was “Lean not on your own understanding”.
You asked for scripture on authority, yet you do not back up your theories with verse.
So where is revival in the end times in the Bible? And please give scripture with verse.
November 13, 2007 at 10:00 pm
John Burton
Kim, you can read the “100%” book that you have regarding the issue on logic.
Are you saying you don’t believe in revival? Many people coming to the Lord? What are your thoughts on the revivals of old?
Revivals are even happening now in places around the world. Look at China, for example. Remember Asuza?
You can read Joel 2, Isaiah 60, Hosea. Get Mike Bickle’s ‘Omega Course’. It’s amazing.
Am I correct in understanding that you don’t think revival is biblical? Do you think no change is coming to the landscape of the church? How do you reconcile the tribulation period leading up to the Millennium period?
November 13, 2007 at 10:05 pm
John Burton
Lee, that’s simply incorrect. Understand that many people have a difficult time hearing God. I’ve asked the question when I speak, “Who here has never heard God… has never received a dream or vision or divine instruction…” At one meeting, around 90% raised their hand!
So, to rely on a consensus would never work. Are you saying that in order to move ahead directionally a pastor must wait and see if everybody has received the exact same instruction?
If a pastor feels impressed they are to call a 3 day all church prayer meeting, does he have to take it to a vote? What if he wants to change service times? Or start a new ministry within the church?
November 13, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Kim
From your book on page 39, in the chapter Uncommon Sense Scale , you say “The higher up the scale we go, the more mature we are, the less we will require God to confirm His Word.” Since you capitolized His Word, i have to believe you are referring to the Bible. I therefore have absolutely no confidence in your book.
I am asking again for biblical references to revival in the end times.
November 13, 2007 at 11:08 pm
John Burton
Already gave references. It seems as if you’re looking hard for anything to become divided and combative over. It’s not a healthy way to live. I know you’ve had some bad experiences in the past, but your current perspective is unhealthy. God really loves you and enjoys you.
If you read my book, you’ll understand more clearly the various points.
Last point for the sake of clarity- what I mean by ‘the less we will require God to confirm His Word’ is that over time we’ll learn how to hear our Father’s voice. If he speaks to me, “John, I love you. I have called you. I want you to evangelize to your friend that sits next to you at work today. I’ve prepared his heart.”
I don’t have to scour the Bible to see if that’s a word from God. I’m a sheep and I know God’s voice.
A word from God must never contradict the Bible. That’s an absolute.
It’s been interesting! Be blessed everybody!
November 13, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Lee
So, to rely on a consensus would never work. Are you saying that in order to move ahead directionally a pastor must wait and see if everybody has received the exact same instruction?
I never said a complete consensus was necessary to make any move. What I meant was that if one individual is given a “word” by the Holy Spirit that will directly affect a large group, then there will be others (not ALL others) who will be led similarly. This confirms God’s “word” rather than relying on one individual’s “prompting.”
If a pastor were to tell me that God told him I should do such and such, I know that I will receive some kind of confirmation. I suppose I’m in the 10% who DOES hear from God — not always and when I don’t, I know that I should WAIT.
November 13, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Lee
You can read Joel 2, Isaiah 60, Hosea. Get Mike Bickle’s ‘Omega Course’. It’s amazing.
Am I correct in understanding that you don’t think revival is biblical? Do you think no change is coming to the landscape of the church? How do you reconcile the tribulation period leading up to the Millennium period?
I already clarified Joel 2. Isaiah 60 and Hosea refer to the nation Israel. Show me NT scripture which speaks of an end time revival.
I do believe in revival. The Bible is replete with various revivals. However, there a lots of NT verses which speak of a falling away and increasing persecution of the saints. Bickle’s assertion of a billion soul revival before the end contradicts this scripture.
November 14, 2007 at 12:38 am
Kim
The Bereans scoured the scriptures to verify what Paul was saying, to protect themselves from deception. I am doing the same and advise that all read and study scripture for the final Word of God. Also use the cross-references in the Bible, because scripture interprets scripture.
The final authority is the Word of God. The Bible is God’s voice.
Can God’s voice be audibly heard? Yes, i believe there are occasions when this happens. I also believe God can do anything He wants but it will always conform to His written word.
But unless we walk in faith, we cannot please God.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Many claim to “hear” from God. And many do. But we have to discern the spirits. Jesus talks alot about the end times so we need to be clear on the issues. In Matthew 24 Jesus tell us about the Signs of the End of the Age. Not once does He speak of revival but of deception.
Jesus In Matthew 8:15, says ” Watch for false prophets. They come in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
So weigh men’s word against God’s written word. Discern.
November 14, 2007 at 12:39 am
Lee
A word from God must never contradict the Bible.
I agree 100%! Then, what do we do the Bickle’s assertion of a “billion soul revival” in these end times which contradicts the scriptures which speak of apostasy?
Here’s NT scripture on false prophets/apostasy:
Matthew 24:9-26
Acts 13:4-12
Romans 1:18-32; 16:16-17
2 Corinthians 11:1-15
Galatians 1:6-9; 5:1-12
Philippians 3:2, 3:18-19
Colossians 2:4-23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
1 Timothy 4:1-3; 6:3-5
2 Timothy 3:1-14; 4:1-6
2 Peter 2:1-22
1 John 2:18-24; 4:1-6
2 John 7-9
Jude 3-23
Revelation
November 14, 2007 at 12:50 am
Anonymous
The billion souls.
Only a billion souls can enter through the wide gate on the broad road.
Matthew 6:13-14
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrosw is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
this is incredibly sad
November 14, 2007 at 12:53 am
IBIJ
Has anybody other than Kim read through John’s web site. If you haven’t do so. You will learn a bit about our brother…
November 14, 2007 at 3:01 am
Mary
Peg,
I would strongly encourage you to check out the links about 24/7 prayer rooms and Mike Bickle on the sign of jonah blog. iwanthtetruth posted the links above.
November 14, 2007 at 7:16 am
Peg
JB — Sorry I bugged out so fast last night… 2AM comes sooner where I am than where you are.
Are you still around and interested in discussion? I had a few questions and thoughts to share that might be of interest, no attacks.
November 14, 2007 at 7:30 am
Peg
Hi Mary,
re: “I would strongly encourage you to check out the links about 24/7 prayer rooms and Mike Bickle on the sign of jonah blog. iwanthtetruth posted the links above.”
I did. FWIW with rare exceptions I only pay attention to original sources. In other words, what does Mike Bickle have to say about Mike Bickle or what does IHOP have to say about IHOP? I found enough items of interest on IHOP’s website last night to hold a decent, informed conversation with JB above.
There are far too many other people around with opinions, I can’t keep up with them all. Besides, good apologetics always includes information from primary sources.
November 14, 2007 at 7:36 am
Peg
IBIJ wrote: “Has anybody other than Kim read through John’s web site. If you haven’t do so. You will learn a bit about our brother…”
Yes, I did. The purpose of John’s website is pretty much to sell books, which he clearly says on the site.
John has been a polite guest here, he expresses himself well and I think he has some interesting insights. I’m trying to avoid all-or-nothing thinking, I think all of us have something to offer and none of us is 100% wrong all the time. I think one of the biggest problems is we tend to “talk past” each other rather than really hearing what the other is saying.
November 14, 2007 at 7:48 am
John Burton
Peg- you’ve been great. I appreciate you’re humility and openness. What would you like to discuss?
November 14, 2007 at 8:21 am
IBIJ
Peg,
Good, I read it as well because I just wanted to know more about John and where he is coming from.
John, I have appreciated your heart in the discussions here. I have my personal feelings about IHOP and what they really believe opposed to what is written on there Core Beliefs. I am not in any doubt that they (leaders and participants) love the Lord. I personally believe that because you are a part of the ministry your teachings may somewhat be founded within Latter Rain/Dominion theology which I think is not biblically correct. I am not as pragmatic as most people in my thinking. But you know what, that is me, and I will continue to be in awe of my Lord because he is a great God and and I see his handiwork in my life and those around me everyday.
Bless you
November 14, 2007 at 8:23 am
Peg
JB – Hey! Good to see you’re still here. 😉
I had an off-the-wall thought today, based loosely on one of your posts a good bit further up the page. (These posts aren’t numbered but it was the one marked as posted at 11:11 and you wrote 5 points.)
Here’s the thought: Is IHOP kind of like a modern-day version of a monastic order? Rationale – monastic orders have:
– a ‘rule of life’ all members agree to follow (this may be written or understood)
– a commitment to daily prayer and worship (in some cases 24/7, in others at least six times a day)
– one leader with authority over each location (in the old days, an abbot or abbess)
– members who commit to a lifestyle of obedience, order, and if not poverty at least a lack of flashy wealth
– members who commit to worship and service
– members who commit to be members for life unless the abbot (leader) transfers them or agrees to a transfer
– members who commit to celibacy outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage (for those orders that permit marriage… some do)
– a belief in, and attention paid to, visions and words of knowledge
Or is that just too strange a thought?
BTW I also realized the reason authority has never been an issue in my church and diocese is because the authority structures are already in place and working well… so well they’re practically transparent!
November 14, 2007 at 8:24 am
John Burton
Thanks IBIJ… I appreciate that!
November 14, 2007 at 8:34 am
John Burton
That’s a good observation, Peg. In some ways I would say that is the case. I don’t believe the IHOP style of ministry is to be a splinter of the body, but in many ways it models (as do other 24/7 prayer ministries) a core structural element for ministry at any level.
Since I’m on staff here, I’ll share what I have observed:
– a ‘rule of life’ all members agree to follow (this may be written or understood)
RESPONSE- You can say that to a degree. Those of us on staff basically work here. There are nearly 500 full time staff members. We do agree to participate in prayer a certain amount each week. We also serve in a variety of other areas. However, the majority aren’t staff. Some treat IHOP as their home church, which works pretty well. In that sense, it’s not much different than a standard Sunday church experience. In other regards, however, including the overall vision, there are differences.
– a commitment to daily prayer and worship (in some cases 24/7, in others at least six times a day)
RESPONSE- Yes, for staff members. Full time staff is in the prayer room 24 hours a week and part timers 12 hours a week.
– one leader with authority over each location (in the old days, an abbot or abbess)
RESPONSE- Not sure exactly what you mean here… at IHOP its basically like a standard church. Leaders over departments. Leaders over those leaders.
– members who commit to a lifestyle of obedience, order, and if not poverty at least a lack of flashy wealth
RESPONSE- Well, the call is to live simply so as to allow a full pursuit in the prayer room. Most don’t have outside jobs… and live quite simply. That being said, to be wealthy isn’t discouraged. Mike Bickle lives more simply than any leader of his kind I’ve know.
– members who commit to worship and service
RESPONSE- Yes… staff members anyway.
– members who commit to be members for life unless the abbot (leader) transfers them or agrees to a transfer
RESPONSE- No, not at all.
– members who commit to celibacy outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage (for those orders that permit marriage… some do)
RESPONSE- It works the way any typical church would.
– a belief in, and attention paid to, visions and words of knowledge
RESPONSE- yes.
November 14, 2007 at 9:02 am
Peg
John — Thanks! I think maybe I’m beginning to catch on a little.
re: “- a ‘rule of life’ all members agree to follow (this may be written or understood)
RESPONSE- You can say that to a degree. Those of us on staff basically work here. There are nearly 500 full time staff members. We do agree to participate in prayer a certain amount each week. We also serve in a variety of other areas.”
That’s what a rule of life is, exactly. Back in the day it might have included growing food or cooking or taking care of the livestock as well as a regular schedule of prayer.
“- one leader with authority over each location (in the old days, an abbot or abbess)
RESPONSE- Not sure exactly what you mean here… at IHOP its basically like a standard church. Leaders over departments. Leaders over those leaders.”
The abbot would be roughly equivalent to a senior pastor, but would also be an administrator and something of a spiritual director to the fulltimers.
Interesting stuff. The monastic movement has historically thrived during times of war and social upheaval — certainly fits our PoMo world. FWIW the greatest strengths of monasticism have been (1) to provide an oasis of peace and tranquillity while the world around is going nuts (2) to provide a counterculture to the prevailing culture, and (3) cultural preservation (of all things). If you can buy a book by Plato down at the local Barnes & Nobles, thank a Celtic monk… they kept the manuscripts after the Roman Empire fell and all of Europe was at war.
All of which is probably not on IHOP’s agenda 😉 …but something to think about. Odds are we aren’t living in the end-times, so secondary objectives will be needed…
November 14, 2007 at 9:06 am
Peg
BTW y’all — this is completely offtopic but just wanted to share…
One of my seminary classmates just got his book published, it’s a very moving and inspiring tale of his life growing up as a “Lost Boy” in the Sudan (you all have heard of the tragedy of Darfur, I think? He lived just south of there.) If you have a moment check it out…
http://www.lostboynomore.com/
Incredible story.
November 14, 2007 at 9:09 am
Peg
Gotta sign off… busy day tomorrow… till manyana…
November 14, 2007 at 11:29 am
Favourmor.Com » Comment on The Revelation in Genesis - Satan’s Lies. by Lee
[…] Lee wrote an interesting post today on Comment on The Revelation in Genesis – Satanâs Lies. by LeeHere’s a quick […]
November 14, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Kim
1. Did God really say? (Here read my book instead * The Bible is irrevelant)
2. You will not die. (Sin doesn’t exist * there is no hell * reincarnation)
3. You shall be like God.
This is a reminder of what this article is about. I want to thank those who have provided scripture as a basis for their comments. As Bereans we are NOT to 1. Question God’s word by selecting certain phrases out of passages that support OUR view. 2. Deny our sinful nature. 3. Use our own views instead of God’s.
November 14, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Kim
“I’ve asked the question when I speak, “Who here has never heard God… has never received a dream or vision or divine instruction…” At one meeting, around 90% raised their hand!”
John I would like to address the above statement you made.
Every Saturday morning i attend my leaders meeting for womens bible study. There are about 40 of us. If we were to be asked this same thing, i would venture a show of NO hands. Of course the focus would be on the divine instruction from the Word of God, instead of dreams or visions.
Week after week we share what the Lord has done in our lives, how we have been convicted of sin or how the Lord has answered our many prayers. He speaks and works in all of us. He gets all the glory, we take none for ourselves, and… we cry alot. With sorrow because we recognize our fallen nature and with joy because we walk in faith.
Now we have a leaders manual, but i want to reveal to you the books we use (besides the Bible) during class, the books we study during the week, suggested books of interest, and books the leaders have written.
November 15, 2007 at 8:37 am
Peg
“1. Did God really say? (Here read my book instead * The Bible is irrevelant)
2. You will not die. (Sin doesn’t exist * there is no hell * reincarnation)
3. You shall be like God.
This is a reminder of what this article is about.”
Apologies — some of us got a little offtopic. :-} I have really enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts though… and Lee (if you’re still reading) I thought you had a lot of good ideas I wanted to respond to directly but ran out of time, hope to chat more on other threads.
“re: “Who here has never heard God… has never received a dream or vision or divine instruction…” John I would like to address the above statement you made. ”
I may be wrong but I think John’s gone. I take it the Berean church doesn’t believe in the (so-called) charistmatic gifts. Are they willing to allow that some Christians interpret scripture differently?
November 15, 2007 at 9:21 am
Kim
Hi Peg,
I was afraid i had scared everyone off.
The spiritual gifts can be a difficult subject. I believe that the gifts exist today but that many have grieved the Holy Spirit and snuffed out their gifts. Some believe that the gifts have totally ceased. All believers are promised a spiritual gift.
Bereans just want to stay as biblical as possible. I belong to a Lutheran church although denominations mean little to me.. So i am a Lutheran who has experienced many of the so-called charismatic gifts. I have had open visions, i have had words of knowledge, and i have had dreams that i knew were prophetic. With every situation i questioned it, to see if it was from God or not. I had found out that these things may not be from God and that the spirits needed to be tested. One of the gifts i received as a young girl was the gift of discernment. At 16 i had been taken to Southern Baptist church in Seattle and as the service commenced people starting shaking, rolling in the aisles and they had to be carried away with stretchers. The ushers were dressed as nurses so this was nothing new to them.
That very day the Lord told me this was not of Him and i knew it was demonic.
Many of the things i have experienced were given to me as tests. As i continue my study in the Word of God, i am growing in the Word and receive much more from reading the Bible. Scripture has come alive for me and even reading the smallest passages can give me many insights that only the Lord can give.
I still have my spiritual gifts but they have actually paled in comparison as i grow in the Word, and as i walk in faith. I am only interested in glorifying God. ALL extra-biblical revelations…need extreme caution and lots of prayer.
In the quest for the gifts i believe that many have allowed themselves to fall into deception by not questioning where this “new power” has come from.
November 15, 2007 at 9:26 am
Kim
I just wanted to add that when i 16, that was long ago. I am now 54.
November 15, 2007 at 9:54 am
Gift Ideas: Unique Personalized Gifts for Men & Women » Comment on The Revelation in Genesis - Satan’s Lies. by Kim
[…] thegoat had some great ideas on this topic.You can read a snippet of the post here.One of the gifts i received as a young girl was the gift of discernment. At 16 i had been taken to Southern Baptist church in Seattle and as the service commenced people starting shaking, rolling in the aisles and they had to be carried … […]