When studying false ministries or New Age religion I always seem to end up at Genesis 3:5, and there is a reason for this. It is so applicable in today’s world. We always hear that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Unfortunately Satan’s lies fall under the first two categories. We can look forward to the day when Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed but until that day we will have to stand up to him using God’s word as our armor.
Let’s take a closer look:
Genesis 3:5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (NIV)
Consider these statements from Word of Faith promoters….
Kenneth Copeland “You’re all God. You don’t have a God living in you; you are one.”
Paul Crouch “I am a little God!…I have his name. I’m one with Him. I’m in covenant relation. I am a little god!. Critics, be gone!”
Benny Hinn “When you say I am a Christian, you are saying, I am mashiach in the Hebrew. I am a little messiah walking on earth, in other words, that is a shocking revelation ..May I say it like this? You are a little god on earth running around.”
It seems as though those who stray too far from the Word of God become unscriptural or twist its meaning. The phrase “and you will be like God” is spoken by the serpent in the garden of Eden. Oh, what power the serpent can have over us. Look at Adam and Eve. Here they were living in a virtual paradise, all their needs were met, they communed directly with God, and yet……they were tempted by the desire to know more…to be like God.
There are three temptations Satan used on Eve to entice her to disobey the commandment of God in Genesis 3:3 which is:
But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
TEMPTATION 1
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Hath God Indeed Said?
Notice how the serpent took a commandment from God and changed it into a question. He asked Eve: “Yea, hath God said..?”or…. Did God really say? Satan created a seed of doubt in Eve’s mind. Now she may have asked herself in response to this question: Why is God withholding this beautiful fruit from me? Surely, God would not hold back His blessings from me. Did I misunderstand?
TEMPTATION 2
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Surely you will not die.
Now that the seed of doubt was planted, Satan contradicted God’s word outright, with “surely you will not die”. Eve’s fear of death was removed by this lie. God said that even if she touched the fruit she would die. When the consequence of disobedience is removed, sin is meaningless.
TEMPTATION 3
Genesis 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
You shall be like God.
After Satan first questioned the Word of God then openly defied it, he then tempted with a new thought. You will be as God. Doesn’t this speak to our pride. That somehow we are in control of our own life and our destiny without Jesus Christ as our Lord. That God’s plan for our lives is not good enough for us. Our way is better than His way.
Can you see the sequence of these three temptations? Satan first used a suggestion to create doubt, then he defied scripture and then baited the trap with deity of self.
Of course this has been happening since the fall of man but you can see it easily in today’s world. The questioning of the Bible. It is authentic? Then the rejection of His word or the twisting of it by man’s sorry translations of today. Then the practices of meditation coming into the churches. Meditation invites oneself to go within. To look within for the answers.
THE ANSWERS ARE NOT WITHIN. THE ANSWERS ARE IN THE HOLY BIBLE. ALL OF THEM. ALL THE ANSWERS FOR HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFE. THE BIBLE IS OUR OWNER’S MANUAL. CHERISH IT. READ IT. PRAY WITH IT. (whew! sorry for yelling)
The New Age/Emergent Church is coming on strong and this will be the trend till the end of time. Theosophy teaching reveals that their goal is to introduce mystism, especially Buddhism and Hinduism into the West and into the churches. OUR churches. Yours and mine!!!! And I can assure you it is happening. The blending of Eastern religion into the West is rampant. Consider how President Bush just warmly received the Dalai Lama. I have read of goddess worship, labryinths, celtic worship, Taize, Yoga, meditation by contemplative prayer in the evangelican churches all across the country. These activities have been advertised in my local newspaper in the religion section. So, when is the New Age? It is NOW. It is here. It is in our churches as I speak…er…write!
There is tremendous power for the Christian who is trying to stay from deception by remembering Genesis. The three lies of Satan can help us detect deception in the false ministries, false teachings, and new age philosophy of today’s ever increasing sinful ways.
1. Did God really say? (Here read my book instead * The Bible is irrevelant)
2. You will not die. (Sin doesn’t exist * there is no hell * reincarnation)
3. You shall be like God. (God is already within all of us * man is divine * we are one with the universe)
Let’s turn this around so we can find the truth!
We are not like God. We are fallen and sinful. But when we confess our sin, repent by turning away from sin, and call on Jesus Christ and follow Him as Savior, we can have eternal life. God’s Word is true, inerrant, and available for all who believe in Him. There is only one way to resist the sin that is presented to us on a silver platter day in and day out. It is through the power of the Holy Spirit.
When confronted with their sin, Adam blamed Eve, and then Eve blamed the serpent. Who are you blaming for your sin or disbelief? Are you puffed-up, full of pride, relying on yourself instead of God? Are you trying to do things your way instead of God’s way? Will you rely on God’s strength instead of your own?
kim
serpent poster from:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/posters.htm
Motivational Posters for the Emerging Church.
DiscernIt 
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October 24, 2007 at 8:18 am
hughstan
My feelings, though I strongly respect yours, are that being like God in the part of him that knows the difference between good and evil is not the same as being like God in everything.
It is our conscience that separates ourselves from animals, I think, and that allows us as humans to come into a different kind of relationship with him.
October 24, 2007 at 8:27 am
Stress Management » The Revelation in Genesis - Satan’s Lies.
[…] I’ve put a link to this article here. […]
October 28, 2007 at 3:41 am
Peg
Hi Kim,
Wow you packed a lot into that post! A few thoughts…..
I would have a hard time putting Prosperity Preachers and the Emerging Church in the same category even if I didn’t have a soft spot for the Emerging folks. Assuming both movements are making theological mistakes, IMO they’re making different ones.
The “Prosperity” crowd – a/k/a “blab it and grab it” – think all good Christians should be rich and successful in this life. Their heresy is essentially magic: “if you pray in such and such a way God must answer you”. Divination is another word the scriptures use for it. You’re very right in saying it’s like putting oneself on an equal footing with God — “counting equality with God a thing to be grasped”.
In the “Emerging” crowd – where there is heresy (btw I think it’s a mistake to paint all the Emerging folks with the same brush… there are some solid Biblical Christians in the movement. Recommend taking a look at Scot McKnight’s blog at jesuscreed – dot – org)
Anyway where there is heresy in the Emerging movement it’s usually caused by people taking the anti-organized-religion thing a bit too far. Sort of a “the organized church is a mess, who needs the sacraments, who needs tradition, let’s experiment with this thing over here instead” kind of attitude. I agree that’s dangerous. Experimenting with spirituality is extremely risky, especially for new Christians who don’t have years of spiritual experience and wisdom behind them.
OTOH I think it’s important to keep in mind not all Celts were heretics (St. Patrick for example) and not all meditation is Eastern or Hindu at its roots. Many folks, myself included, need the mystery side of the faith otherwise the practice of it becomes dry and unemotional. Passionless, literally, since the Passion itself is a mystery. The so-called “frozen chosen” effect is what happens when people become fearful of what they don’t understand and attempt to remove all mystery from Christianity.
Perhaps it would be helpful to explore how people can go about telling the difference between the legitimate “mystery” aspects of Christianity and the spiritual forgeries? I think your post gives a fantastic start on that… measuring against God’s word (“did God really say?”), keeping in mind the ‘thou shalt nots’ (“you will not die”), and avoiding the temptation to make ourselves like God (“you shall be like God”). (It’s His job to make us more like Him, eh? 😉 )
BTW off-topic but I wanted to give you a heads-up on this item in case you haven’t seen it: http://reutersramblings.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/have-you-heard-about-the-golden-compass/
Blessings,
Peg
October 29, 2007 at 5:17 am
Kim
I took a look Scot Mcknight’s and saw some names that are listed on the discernment sites. Brian McLaren, Dallas Willard, and Tony Compolo.
According to Brian McLaren most anyone can follow Jesus including Buddhists and Hindus. Also he states that we need to “emulate Roman Catholicism to become more mystical in our reverence of God”.
I just read a review by Roger Oakland, on the book “The Real Mary” by Scot McKnight. This book is endorsed by Lynne Hybels, wife of Bill Hybels who is the pastor of Willow Creek Church. Those who are familiar with Willow Creek know that the members of this church walked out because of the term “Christ” was being used. Apparently, Willow Creek no longer uses any “religious terms” such as “Christ”. This kinda stopped me dead in my tracks.
I have heard this term “frozen chosen” before and do not really understand it.
I have much joy. I love the Lord very much. I also have much burden for the lost and those who may be in deception. Dry and unemotional? I saw a picture of a fellow discernment blogger who had her face buried in her hands. I thought….sister….we are in exactly the same place.
October 29, 2007 at 5:34 am
Anonymous
I am with ya, people just don’t get it. Oy Vey!
October 29, 2007 at 5:58 am
Mary
Frozen chosen as I understand has to do with taking election to the extreme ie. hypercalvinists who do not share their faith because if God predestines and elects a sinner to salvation then why bother evangelizing.
I don’t really understand Peg’s point or what she is trying to say.
October 29, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Kim
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/compass.asp
Hi Peg…Here is a direct link leading to the article and is very informative about this movie.
Here is a quick review of the film.
A film called “The Golden Compass” opens December 7. It is based on the first book of a trilogy titled His Dark Materials. The author of this children’s fantasy is Philip Pullman, a noted English atheist. It is his objective to bash Christianity and promote atheism. To kids. “The Golden Compass” is a film version of the book by that name, and it is being toned down so that Catholics, as well as Protestants, are not enraged.
October 31, 2007 at 8:00 am
Peg
Kim: Re: Scot McKnight — try reading some of his posts, theology he himself has actually written. Don’t judge by other people’s names. Allow him to speak for himself.
Mary: sorry, I don’t mean to be confusing. There were a lot of points and sub-points in Kim’s article I wanted to respond to.
Overall my main point is this: Christians come in all kinds of varieties. Just because people worship in different ways doesn’t mean they’re un-Biblical. It just means they’re different. Differences in culture and religious practice are not the same thing as heresy.
My secondary point (I have a feeling Kim and I will probably have to agree to disagree one of these days 😉 ) is: there is such a thing as legitimate Christian meditation and mysticism. (There is no such thing as “generic” meditation or mysticism, it’s always attached to a specific faith or religion.) Historically Christianity has always had a mystical side to it. Trying to explain exactly what it is, is like trying to communicate something that by its very nature is nearly impossible to put into words. Try describing a symphony, or a work of art… you can’t, really… a symphony must be heard and a work of art must be seen.
Most Christian mysticism centers around the “mysteries” of the faith, the things that are difficult or impossible to grasp intellectually. While it’s true Christianity is a reasonable faith, not everything in it can be explained by means of reason. Mystics approach the mysteries by attempting to understand intuitively through meditation. So a common practice might be to meditate on the crucifixion or on communion.
FWIW all the things I’ve ever read by Christians who have had mystical experiences or visions all say essentially the same thing: the essence of God is love. Deep, overwhelming, never-ending love. Which is exactly what the Bible says He is.
The Christian mystics are not always right in everything they say, but they’re not always wrong… like any other specialist in the faith (pastors, teachers, etc) they are human and can be mistaken. What I’m saying is don’t be afraid to read what they’ve written. There’s some good stuff there, concepts that make us stretch, words that make us realize we don’t know all there is to know about God. In fact what we don’t know about God is a lot more than what we do know.
I hope readers here understand this too: I’m not attacking Kim. I totally understand the need for apologetics in today’s world. I think Kim is a very bright and talented lady, and more thoughtful than many in the field. I’m just tossing out challenges to some of the ‘conventional wisdom’, which I think is a healthy thing to do.
Blessings,
Peg
October 31, 2007 at 9:32 am
Kim
Hi Peg….
I know that we disagree on some things but please, always feel free to express your views… thank for your kind words.
November 1, 2007 at 12:00 am
Kim
I feel that if Scot McKnight endorses emergent authors he must endorse the emergent church. What other conclusion can i come to?
Mysticism has indeed been in church history, mainly known as Gnosticism (secret wisdom) . I like what Jewel Grewe has to say about this.
“…Gnosticism is often detected in teachings and preachings. They feel the scriptures should be supplimented and substituted by some internal authority such as feeling, conscience, intuition, inner voice, etc. Greater heed is given over the self-conscience internal authority over faith in the voice of the Word.”
So i have a real problem with “understanding intuitively with meditation”. Intuition is reliance on inner feelings rather than scripture. Meditation that produces an altered state of consciousness to attain this knowledge is divination, is forbidden.
Dictionary.com defines intuition as:
“The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition.
Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.”
To base my perception of God on this basis instead of scripture would allow many misconceptions.
Here is a statement from a gnostic site.
Meditation is the means by which the individual may achieve direct union with God. In order to attain this gnosis, one must first fully understand the mind. All through our lives, we have grown accustomed to indirect experiences. The text that you are reading right now is understood through such an indirect experience. For instance, there is the process of reading. Through this indirect experience, this text may be understood and fully comprehended by the reader. Gnosis is attained through direct experience. The only way to achieve a direct experience is by transcending the ego. http://www.gnostic-jesus.com/Meditation.html
So Gnosis (secret wisdom) is attained by direct experience. Where does this leave scripture? One who desires secret wisdom is listening to a serpent whispering in the ear “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
A Christian does not look inward to his consciousness for answers. A Christian finds all he needs to know in the Holy Bible. Read the Bible with this prayer:
“Lord please allow your words to come alive in my heart, use your words to show me your love, but also where I have sin in my life. Show me how to live my life for you. Search my heart and show me my wickedness so that I my confess these things to, so that I may be clean before you. I want this so that I may be a clean vessel to do your work and to be in your will. I pray that I walk in faith of your Holy Word. Amen”
November 10, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Peg
Hi Kim,
Missed your follow-up, sorry! A few quick thoughts before I dash off to the grocery shopping….
“I feel that if Scot McKnight endorses emergent authors he must endorse the emergent church. What other conclusion can i come to?”
That’s kind of like saying Erasmus (Catholic theologian) endorsed the Protestant Reformation just because he personally liked Luther. Trust me, it doesn’t work that way. Some of the best of Christian friends can differ sharply on theology. (in fact one of my best buds in school right now is an Anglo-Catholic, couldn’t be further from me in terms of beliefs, but I like the guy and I know he loves Jesus…) Another possible conclusion might be: “Scot is a contemporary theologian and an imperfect human being who is exploring the writings of a number of different people and is making use of any ideas he finds as scripturally support-able.”
“So i have a real problem with “understanding intuitively with meditation”. Intuition is reliance on inner feelings rather than scripture. Meditation that produces an altered state of consciousness to attain this knowledge is divination, is forbidden”
Intuition is part of what God created in us when He created human beings. It is one of the blessings He has given us, just like emotions and thoughts. In scripture we are commanded to love and worship Him with our whole being, with everything that’s in us, and that includes the heart, the intuition, the mind, all of it. The question is not “should we?” but “HOW should we?”
(pensive mode on) Here’s a question I ask myself sometimes, I’ll just toss it out there for consideration:
Is it possible perhaps there are people who are born without intuition, just like there are people who are born without the ability to see color (color-blindness)? If that’s the case the above paragraph would be like speaking a foreign language to one who doesn’t use intuition, it wouldn’t make any sense at all and in fact would probably sound very foreign and a bit outside the scope of the faith… (pensive mode off)
I’ve said it before and I will say again: I agree with you that altered states of consciousness are not Christian and equality with God is not a thing to be grasped. God never tells us to “turn off our brains” in order to make way for “new truths”. The word “meditation” simply means to think deeply on something. Unless of course you’re talking about a non-Christian context, which is a whole nother ball of wax.
All the lies of the evil one are only a twisting of God’s truth and God’s good gifts. Wherever you see evil, the question needs to be asked: what good gifts of God’s are being distorted?
November 11, 2007 at 7:21 am
Mary
Peg,
I understand a bit about what you think….. I am not hearing you support it with scripture. Meditation on God’s word-ok. But you are not saying that. Meditating on what?
As far as having a friend who is anglo catholic- that gets a bit touchy. I can’t embrace anyone as a brother who thinks catholicism is scriptural. You are giving us a bunch of fluff and nothing to prove in the Word of God. When I listened to your link above . All it brought to my mind ,and please forgive me if I offend you, is a remembrance of my catholic days. Mysticism was the conterfeit to make me feel spirituality void of truth.
If emmergent authors are heretical and not following in truth why would anyone want to endorse anything they have to say?
Peg, do you consider yourself born again?
November 11, 2007 at 9:28 am
Peg
Hi Mary,
Yes I’m born again. I first heard and believed the Gospel when I was 5 and went forward at a Billy Graham Crusade at the age of 11 (Shea Stadium NYC 1970).
Not that church affiliation amounts to a hill of beans in God’s eyes, but to give you my background… I was raised Presbyterian, attended Catholic university, was re-baptized Baptist after doing a little backsliding in school, and have since worked as a music director in Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist and Catholic churches. I’m currently attending seminary at Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry, the only Episcopal school that the national Episcopal Church refuses to recognize because we are too Biblically-based. I’m also a member of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, which, if you’ve been following the news, last week voted to leave the national Episcopal Church because the national church has fallen into heresy.
BTW Kim — that last sentence is the latest news from here… please keep our bishop, Robert Duncan, in prayer. He is a Godly man and may end up losing his job, his pension, and every worldly thing he has because of the stand he’s taking for Christ. May God raise up many more leaders with his faith and courage…
Anyway, back to Mary’s questions. re: “…nothing to prove in the Word of God” — You won’t often hear me quote chapter and verse because one of the things I learned in the Baptist church is that people tend to take waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy too much pride in being able to quote chapter and verse. So I try to avoid that temptation. If you really need me to quote chapter and verse I will.
“Meditating on what?” God’s word of course.
“I can’t embrace anyone as a brother who thinks catholicism is scriptural.”
I have quite a number of close friends who are ex-Catholics so I understand where you’re coming from with that. Being released from Catholic hierarchy is freedom, and for many it’s a necessary freedom, but that doesn’t mean all Catholics are headed to That Other Place. I have met true believers — people who dearly love Jesus and put their trust in the words of John 3:16 — in Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Methodist, and non-denominational churches. I’ve also found hypocrites in all those churches too. It’s not the sign on the door that counts, it’s His Blood covering the sins of the individual believer that’s what matters.
“If emmergent authors are heretical and not following in truth why would anyone want to endorse anything they have to say?”
Your question assumes all emergent authors are heretical, which is not an assumption I’m willing to make. I won’t judge someone’s words until I’ve heard what they have to say, and I certainly won’t take the opinion of a third party on it. I do my own homework where it comes to measuring an author’s words against scripture. If you like I can go find an excerpt of respectable length and we can grab Bibles and do a little apologetics analysis right here…
November 11, 2007 at 9:47 am
mizpah31
An atrticle I came across several years ago helped me to understand this subject of making judgments. I recall it was in “New Wine”. The author said making judgments is a function of authority. Someone who pronounces a judgment to a situation over which they have no authority is a “busybody”. But people who have been given authority, by a higher authority, are RESPOSIBLE to use that authority to make JUDGMENTS to keep order. People who have authority to make judgments and who fail to do so or miss use their authority will be held ACCOUNTABLE by the one who greated that authority. This principle applies to many situations besides religion. It certainly applies in the family in many areas the least of which is not deciding where to take your family to worship.
November 11, 2007 at 10:12 am
Kim
New Wine sounds like a term from the New Apostolic Reformation. This is a system being put in place by the “new” apostles who are creating a five-fold ministry. The congregation has no say in any matters. I believe this dominion based ministry to be heretical.
A biblical system of order is in Ephesians 5. God is head. Man is next and then woman. I remember in bible study when the teacher said, sorry ladies, you are to be in submission to your husband, there were gasps. It is true though. The husband is to be head of the household. A woman is not to be over men in the church at all. I do not believe that women should be pastors. i would say call me old-fashioned, but i prefer biblical.
November 11, 2007 at 10:29 am
John Burton
—-Someone who pronounces a judgment to a situation over which they have no authority is a “busybody”.
That is a great point. Excellent. It’s gossip and possibly even slander. Intentional disunity when such an extreme approach is not warranted.
I just can’t understand why it’s so hard for some to say, “My interpretation of non-absolutes in scripture may be wrong”. Is it an issue of fear? Spiritual pride? Immaturity? A desire for truth and frustration with current systems? I’d say that one may be predominant.
There are many ‘ministries’ out there that major on promoting their own interpretation of scripture as the only possible option. And, thus, other viewpoints are arbitrarily declared to be heresy.
I just can’t imagine how this results in God being honored or people being saved.
Remember- IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY.
What are being pronounced as essentials many times are actually not in regard to salvation.
November 11, 2007 at 10:43 am
Kim
Hi Peg,
“I’m also a member of the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh, which, if you’ve been following the news, last week voted to leave the national Episcopal Church because the national church has fallen into heresy.”
I am interested in this. Do you have a link that i can read?
November 11, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Peg
“Do you have a link that i can read?”
Sure do. Here’s the first news article to hit the papers… from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. (It has since made the NY Times.)
http://postgazette.com/pg/07306/830703-100.stm
This article was posted on our Diocese blog. It’s written by Eric Taylor, our former youth minister, who is now senior pastor of one of the fastest-growing Bible-teaching Episcopal churches in the city. This was his presentation to the Diocese convention just before the vote was taken.
http://parishtoolbox.org/index.php/tbx/entry/64
Here’s a link to the NY Times article. The priest in the photo is one of our professors at school! 🙂
And on a much smaller scale, my own 2c… I wrote this post as the news was breaking…
What a time this is…….
November 11, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Peg
PS – I don’t agree with everything our friend JB says, but this quote I believe is critical to any ministry that will reach people and change lives. This was an essential teaching during the Reformation, and something I believe we need to continue to hold to today:
“IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY”
Amen!
November 11, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Lee
The question then is: what are the essentials?
November 12, 2007 at 12:46 am
John Burton
It’s a super easy answer. If one were to disagree with an essential, his stance would deem him to be a non-Christian.
Jesus is God, he rose from the dead, there is a heaven and a hell, we have all sinned, etc. Those are some of the non-negotiable essentials.
Many of the pet topics (and even important topics) that many are quick to divide over are non-essentials in regard to one’s position in Christ.
Then, beyond that, it’s so very important to understand that an individual may be identified with a certain belief system (Catholic, Baptist, latter rain, etc.) but may have their own set of agreements and disagreements within that system.
For example, it’s not appropriate to say that someone who is Catholic is non-Christian… because that certain individual may not embrace some of the problematic teachings… but they do embrace the healthy ones. Same is true of a Baptist or a Charismatic or Calvinist.
That’s why it’s so much more effective to rightly divide the Word… and not the people. It’s better to address false teachings vs. supposed false teachers.
Many that claim to ‘rightly’ divide the Word are actually in error quite often. They missed it. Their study, while honorable and disciplined, is simply resulting in errors in interpretation. For example I would believe that cessationists are in great error… and they would say the same of me. However, we are both Christians and should be deeply unified.
I’ve heard a lot of accusations against people in my lifetime and you’d be astonished how wrong many of them are. It’s said that because so and so is involved with such and such ministry that they must certainly believe exactly as that ministry believes. That’s simply not usually the case.
It would be easy for me to come to the defense of some people who are being attacked as false teachers… and so very, very often these people are being misrepresented. They love God so much and are pressing ahead with the purest of hearts. Yes, they are human and yes they make mistakes… but to intentionally hurt a brother or sister who is so in love with Jesus… and simply has a different slant on some interpretations of scripture… is so hurtful, wrong and unnecessary on so many levels.
November 12, 2007 at 2:18 am
IWanthetruth
John,
“I would believe that cessationists are in great error…
I think I have read some of your posts on the SOJ site and if I remember right you mentioned there that Calvinisism is wrong or atleast I felt you elude to that as well as here, I interpret that you believe they are wrong. Let me ask this question of you…
“Do you think one can be Calvinist and be Charsmatic or better term a continuist? Or do you think that being Calvin in their belif needs to naturally lead one to be a cessationist?
Is there such a thing as a Calvincostal???
November 12, 2007 at 2:21 am
IWanthetruth
Maybe it wasn’t the SOJ site but here where you were asked some questions about your book “The Coven” which I don’t see any response to as of yet..
November 12, 2007 at 2:29 am
John Burton
I’ll let you read the book… it covers the issues pretty clearly.
The point about feeling a certain stream is in error is this- it’s ok to disagree! It’s not an error at the essential level.
Maybe it’s me who is interpreting some points wrongly. Maybe we both are. This is what I’m trying to bring everybody to- stop debating the minor points and act like a family.
November 12, 2007 at 2:55 am
Mary
John,
you mean ecumenticalism? Get ravished by God? He’s my lover?
No thank you.
November 12, 2007 at 3:37 am
John Burton
No, I don’t mean ecumenticalism… not sure what you mean. If you are willing to divide God’s church over minor points I wonder why. Souls are at stake… don’t weaken the camp during this important stage of history.
The principle is this- if you make a firm stand on the issues of Christian absolutes then you strengthen unity, but if you make a firm stand on non-essentials… and elevate your own interpretation of scripture over biblical unity you create great problems and give room to the enemy.
Also, are you saying that you aren’t in love with Jesus? I may not be understanding. Of course we are called to a zealous, whole hearted love of God. I may be missing your point.
November 12, 2007 at 4:28 am
IWanthetruth
John,
you didn’t answer my original question. I am very seriously interested because I am at a cross roads of what I am believing these days.
One is the fact that I believe the Spiritual Warefare that is done today is not true biblical warfare. There IS a warfare but I am not convinced there are territorial demons etc. based on the scriptures that are used within the Latter Rain theology and C.Peter Wagners Apostolic/Prophert reformation.
Blessings
November 12, 2007 at 5:12 am
John Burton
Which question exactly?
November 12, 2007 at 5:13 am
Peg
IWtT wrote: “Do you think one can be Calvinist and be Charsmatic or better term a continuist? Or do you think that being Calvin in their belif needs to naturally lead one to be a cessationist?”
I work for a PCUSA church and the last pastor I worked under was both Calvinist and Charismatic. She was an absolute dynamo — one of the best pray-ers I’ve ever met, and an excellent preacher. She was miraculously healed of cancer about 10 years ago, and she speaks in tongues (privately), but she doesn’t push it on anyone else. She’s just willing to answer questions if you ask. (BTW I am not Charismatic so I had lots of questions for her 😉 )
I’m not sure if that answers all your questions but maybe it will answer part of it.
November 12, 2007 at 5:20 am
Peg
BTW gang — y’all are using some terms here that I’ve never heard of, and some that I’m not sure we all mean the same thing by. Having said that, would someone be willing to take on the question:
What do these words/terms mean…?
Cessationist
Continuist
Latter Rain
IHOP (not pancakes, I take it)
New Wine
New Apostolic Reformation
Calvinist
Ecumenicism
Spiritual Warfare
Prophet
Apostle
November 12, 2007 at 5:22 am
Peg
Lee wrote:
“The question then is: what are the essentials?”
That is THE question indeed. I think it deserves much more than just a quick glossing over.
Kim — would you want to start another thread on this topic, or should we hammer it out here?
November 12, 2007 at 5:29 am
Kim
i would say…Go for it!
November 12, 2007 at 5:31 am
John Burton
I answered the question regarding the essentials… at least in part…
The question about whether one can be both Charismatic and Calvinist… I believe you can be both… though, I haven’t resolved some of the conflicting issues. I know people who are both. Often, a Charismatic believer who deeply embraces the ‘grace’ message tends to tilt toward the Calvinist perspective.
November 12, 2007 at 5:38 am
John Burton
Peg- I agree that using terminology can lead to some confusion or over reaching assumptions.
IHOP- I’m on staff there. It’s International House of Prayer in Kansas City. It’s led by Mike Bickle. In a nutshell it’s a ministry of night and day prayer. They have been going non-stop 24 hours a day in worship and prayer for eight years. Israel is a common point of prayer as are justice issues such as abortion. Lou Engle and The Call is a part of this ministry as well.
You can read about some of the controversy and their response here:
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010561
They address misunderstandings on topics such as:
IHOP’s Statement of Faith
IHOP’s Affirmations and Denials related to past controversies
1. The Manifest Sons of God theology
2. The Latter Rain
3. Dominion Theology
4. Joel’s Army
5. The use of Prophecy
6. The Tabernacle of David
IHOP’s view of the End Times (Apostolic Pre-Millennialism)
IHOP’s view of the Bridal Paradigm
IHOP’s view of the Song of Solomon
November 12, 2007 at 5:42 am
John Burton
Regarding spiritual warfare, there is a lot of differing ideas even within the Charismatic camp. I’ve had some very interesting first hand experience with it in what many call the darkest city in the nation.
At the most simplistic level the idea is that where there is an influx of demons who are organized and active it can be very difficult for the lost to get saved and for the saved to be strong.
When revival breaks out, the enemy is pushed back and God moves in power in freedom. It’s easier to get saved.
Just as a person may need deliverance to find freedom from an addiction, fear, depression, etc., there may be a larger scale deliverance on a city level that will also result in freedom.
Another way to look at it is this- if we pray in agreement with what’s on God’s heart, angels move into position and battle more effectively… the enemy loses it’s hold and miracles happen. I’ve seen this happen time and time again.
I’ll leave it at that for now unless there are other thoughts or questions.
November 12, 2007 at 6:19 am
Mary
John,
I think you know what I meant.
November 12, 2007 at 6:20 am
Peg
JB – Thanks for the details… will look into your links asap (not tonight tho, have a paper due for a 9AM class tomorrow…)
Just one comment on cities — without getting into the angelic/demonic thing it’s certainly true God answers prayer for cities and I encourage others to do so too. There were a bunch of guys — clergy and businessmen — who about 40 years ago started a campaign called the “Pittsburgh Experiment” and part of it was praying that God would make Pittsburgh “as famous for God as it is for steel”. The Lord has answered that prayer in a number of ways over the years, and still is answering it. This city’s churches are amazingly full of life, and even with the broad ethnic diversity here the churches all work well together. It’s a blessing to watch, let alone be part of.
November 12, 2007 at 7:01 am
Peg
OK all, here’s a start… comments? Sorry there’s no time to look up supporting verses right now but if anyone wants ’em, let me know and I can get ’em.
The Essentials
1. God Is. (that’s His name: “I AM”)
2. God is One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
3. God has made Himself known through the Bible — Old Testament and New Testament.
4. God teaches us to call Him “Abba” Father.
5. God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him worship in Spirit and in Truth.
6. God created everything in the universe — both what we see and what we don’t see.
7. God created mankind, male and female, sinless and perfect, in a perfect world.
8. Man and woman rebelled against God and disobeyed Him. As a result, sin, imperfection and death were introduced into the world.
9. God promised the man and woman that one of their descendants would destroy the Deceiver who had prompted their rebellion.
10. Jesus is the descendant God promised in #9.
11. Jesus is God’s one and only begotten Son, born of Mary.
12. Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father.
13. Jesus was not created, He is the Co-Creator. (John 1:1)
14. Jesus is both fully God and fully man.
15. Jesus is one with the Father.
16. Jesus lived a perfect life, preaching the Good News that the Kingdom of God is at hand.
17. Jesus died for us on the cross, taking the punishment for sin and disobedience on Himself.
18. Jesus walked out of the grave alive three days later, opening the door through death to eternal life.
19. Anyone who looks to Jesus in faith and repentance and believes in Him “will not perish but will have everlasting life.”
20. Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead and establish His eternal kingdom.
21. When someone becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell inside him or her.
22. The Holy Spirit is one with God the Father and Jesus, the third person of the Trinity, one-in-three and three-in-one.
23. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who “comes alongside”.
24. The Holy Spirit is the “down-payment” of our salvation.
25. There is only one true church, and that is the body of believers (not an institution).
26. This body of believers is called in scripture “Zion”, “the church”, “the body”, “the Bride of Christ”, Jesus’ inheritance.
27. While Christians may not agree on practice and doctrine, it is important for believers to worship together regularly and to participate in baptism and communion in their respective fellowships.
28. “Eternal life” as mentioned in #19 includes a new heaven and a new earth and a new body and a new name and a “house with many mansions”.
29. The Bible is God’s word, written by His inspiration through the Holy Spirit, and should be read by all believers in order to know God better and to grow in faith.
30. Believers should also talk to God on a regular basis in prayer, bringing all thanks, praise, and requests to Him.
Blessings,
Peg
November 12, 2007 at 7:33 am
Kim
This i copied from the below link:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/threefallacies.html
Prayerwalking, spiritual mapping, binding territorial demons, using methods like driving stakes, spraying oil, drawing crosses, going up on mountains and blowing shofars and hundreds of other methods are not to be found in Scripture.
But they are found liberally in the New Age, occult and shamanism from which they were culled. If there were a pragmatic solution to demonic problems, other than casting demons out of individuals in the name of Jesus Christ based on a Sonship relationship to Him, then Christ and the Apostles would have taught it and done it. But they did not.
Can you imagine Paul asking pagan priest the names of local demons then doing a prayerwalk around the temple of Diana? Why do that when you can actually witness to people, telling them they are sinners in need of a Savior? What protects people against demons? Is it stakes with Bible verses or a personal relationship to Jesus Christ?
***************
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13
November 12, 2007 at 7:36 am
John Burton
That’s excellent. Right on. I was part of a ministers alliance once… this is a great example of scriptural absolutes doing their job… and we all agreed that the Apostles Creed help identify the absolutes that we would all agree on.
If one were to refute an agreed upon absolute, then we knew that person wasn’t adhering to the Christian faith. If one were to disagree with another on an unmentioned biblical teaching, we’d simply agree to disagree and refuse to cause division over it.
Well, one pastor refused to participate because of this. He said that he didn’t want to offend his pagan and Muslim brethren.
(The part about the ‘catholic church’ in the Apostles creed often throws people… note that it’s a lower-case ‘c’.)
November 12, 2007 at 7:37 am
John Burton
Oops… I posted the above in the wrong place.
November 12, 2007 at 7:39 am
John Burton
Oh, wait… no I didn’t! I’m losing it! It’s in reference to Peg’s post above on the essentials.
November 12, 2007 at 7:42 am
John Burton
Actually, there are a lot of symbolic acts in the Bible.
Prayer is such an important element for every believer. As we pray, things happen. Whether it’s prayer walking (that’s just prayer while you’re moving your feet, not some strange doctrinal issue) or making declarations, it’s very effective.
Witnessing can be extremely ineffective if not preceded by extensive prayer.
November 12, 2007 at 7:46 am
Kim
Here is a blurb about the NAR
In promoting the “New Apostolic Reformation” (NAR) Wagner openly endorses the “restoration of the five-fold ministry” of Ephesians 4:11 ­ which is a key teaching of LR/MSOG theology. Glory of Zion International Ministries is “the personal ministry of Apostle Chuck Pierce, Director of the World Prayer Center in Colorado Springs.” His web site informs us that the term “New Apostolic Reformation” is, “a term coined by Dr. Peter Wagner to describe the extraordinary work of God that is, to a significant extent, changing the shape of Protestant Christianity around the world”
http://www.cephasministry.com/apostles_reformation.html
The five fold ministry is Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastors, Teachers. If if have this correct, the congregation answers to the Teacher, Teacher to Pastor, Pastor, to Evangelist, Evangelist to Prophet, Prophet to Apostle. Who is the main Apostle? C. Peter Wagner.
This chart on the below link is the world plan for the takeover of ALL churches.
You want information? You go here…
http://erwm.com/New%20Apostolic%20Reformation.htm
November 12, 2007 at 7:54 am
Lee
On quick perusal, that’s a great start Peg! Regarding #24 “The Holy Spirit is the “down-payment” of our salvation.” this is about where Calvinism starts. Once saved, always saved. This is as opposed to the Arminian view which believes we can lose our salvation (IHOP believes this). Strict Calvinists believe in all things being predestined; so, why evangelize? I, myself, am closest to the Calvinist view; and, while I do believe in predestination to a point — that is that God knows the past, present and future and so He knows what we’ll do before we do it — I do not go so far as believing we shouldn’t evangelize or strive to make change. We are called to be obedient and that means obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in addition to the Word.
To anwer some of your other questions:
A Cessationist is one who believes some of the gifts outlined in 1 Corinthians 12 13 & 14 have ceased based in part on verses 13:8-12 I believe. Continuists are those who have the opposite view. For example, I’m a continuist but with the belief that prophecy is primarily a forthtelling from the Holy Spirit for “strengthening, encouragement and comfort” as stated in 14:3 rather than a foretelling of the future for the corporate church at large.
As far as the New Apostolic Reformation, look here:
http://www.apostlesnet.net/
These self-proclaimed “Apostles” are outright charlatans or really deceived themselves. They are nothing more than power hungry folks leading the flock astray while pushing for the New Apostolic Reformation, sort of like a new “Protestant Reformation” — attempting to force “leadership” over the church.
Chuck Pierce, the guy in the center at bottom, is very easily a false prophet as he proclaimed the following very obvious false prophecy:
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/category/chuck-pierce/
In fact, I suggest you search around the blog referenced above and Kim’s right here for more complete answers to your questions.
Mike Bickle over at IHOP has stated — I’ll have to paraphrase as I don’t have the exact quote handy — that “the face of Christianity will change in one generation.” I believe him when he says this; but, I don’t think the change is going to be a good one. I believe these movements are working together with the Emerging Church folks towards a one-world religion. And, it won’t be Christianity as we know it!
November 12, 2007 at 7:57 am
John Burton
Rick Joyner spoke here this morning… and he said something that I agree with. The reformation is only, in his opinion, around 15% complete. There is much more change coming.
I believe a massive reformation is coming. I talk about this type of stuff on my blog a lot. http://www.r180.com. Not because God made a mistake, but rather because we have… and we’re going to discover the amazing Acts style church here in the end-times.
November 12, 2007 at 8:30 am
Kim
You know John…i think you are right and have been all along.
There is going to be a massive reformation in the end-times. Jesus speaks of it 3 times in Matthew 24.
4. Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming I am the Christ and will deceive many.
10. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other 11. and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
24. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect, if that were possible.25. See I have told you ahead of time.
November 12, 2007 at 9:08 am
IWanthetruth
Wow! Alot got posted since I left to see my brother and sister-in-laws new home where I live. Then went out and had a great bowl of clam chowser soup and a salad. Yum!!
This is the original questions… from above…
November 12th, 2007 at 2:18 am
IWanthetruth
John,
“I would believe that cessationists are in great error…
I think I have read some of your posts on the SOJ site and if I remember right you mentioned there that Calvinisism is wrong or atleast I felt you elude to that as well as here, I interpret that you believe they are wrong. Let me ask this question of you…
“Do you think one can be Calvinist and be Charsmatic or better term a continuist? Or do you think that being Calvin in their belif needs to naturally lead one to be a cessationist?
Is there such a thing as a Calvincostal???
November 12, 2007 at 9:26 am
John Burton
I answered this above… I’ll repost here:
The question about whether one can be both Charismatic and Calvinist… I believe you can be both… though, I haven’t resolved some of the conflicting issues. I know people who are both. Often, a Charismatic believer who deeply embraces the ‘grace’ message tends to tilt toward the Calvinist perspective.
November 12, 2007 at 9:27 am
John Burton
Kim- no sarcasm needed. What would you have said to Martin Luther? Was that reformation unbiblical?
November 12, 2007 at 9:41 am
IWanthetruth
John,
Thank you, I read on and you did answer me.
Kim, Lee,
I agree with the information you posted for Peg.
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/?s=mike+bickle&searchsubmit=Find+%C2%BB
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/category/ihop/
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/category/ihop/paul-cain/
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/category/ihop/bob-jones/
And there is much more there….. do alot of research
November 12, 2007 at 9:47 am
Kim
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound sarcastic. That statement actually made me very sad.
What would i say to Martin Luther? Thank you sir for the preservation of the gospel of Christ.
Speaking of Luther….His posting on the door, The Ninety-Five Theses, challenged the teaching of penance and indulgences as well as questioning the authority of the Pope. He turned the church away from human influence.
I do not want to go back to a day where the church is under such authority. Like the five-fold ministry.
November 12, 2007 at 10:17 am
John Burton
That’s a significant problem… the issue of authority is extremely biblical. That’s the basis of my Covens book… when we arbitrarily decide that we are unsubmitted to those whom God has put into our lives as leaders, anarchy and rebellion is the result.
Many say that they will only submit to the point which they agree with their leader. That’s not submission at all. Submission is actually highlighted when we don’t agree with a leader.
I’ve met Christians that would gossip about their bosses, government officials, their pastor, etc… all without those people being present. It’s sin. It’s hurtful. It’s pride.
November 12, 2007 at 10:20 am
John Burton
By the way, I notice many of the teachings (not teachers) that you are targeting on your site should most certainly be targeted as non-Christian religions. The New Age, yoga, etc. We as believers should most certainly bring light to these activities. The Bible is very clear about them.
But, to cross the line into your own Christian family is where the problem lies.
November 12, 2007 at 10:30 am
mizpah31
Well Kim, I’m sorry that the term “New Wine” reminded you of something I didn’t intend. New Wine was a magazine published in the 70’s until about the mid 80’s. It was written by charismatics and there was some mention of a community similar to that that you mentioned but I had no interest in it. There were many good articles that explained spiritual concepts. I believe they stopped publishing it in the mid 80’s, at least that’s when I stopped my subscription. Those who authored it were in their 60’s at that time so most of them are probably Home with The Lord by now.
November 12, 2007 at 10:40 am
Kim
Mizpah..
Oh okay….wow..that was…hours and hours ago…
November 12, 2007 at 10:58 am
IWanthetruth
“That’s a significant problem… the issue of authority is extremely biblical.
You are correct “being under authority” is biblical, maybe those of us who believe that the scriptures does not teach a reformation of the 5 fold ministry might be incorrect, but maybe on the other hand those who do are incorrect.
I will stand on the “absolute” of the this scripture:
Act 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 “For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong[fn4] he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms,
‘May his camp become desolate,
and let there be no one to dwell in it’;
and
‘Let another take his office.’
21 “So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 “beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias.
I have a very good friend who has a Doctorate in Greek and he and I have talked about this very issue at length and while he states that the Greek does support a (small letter) apostles, it does not support a (capital A) Apostle. And be it known, he is pentecostal and Greek Professor in a like Bible College. I for one will always put myself under the leadership and authority of the local pastor of the church I go to. I have been in a position of leadership in the church for over 30 years of my Christian walk. But I also believe that the above verses are very much the scripture given, (as spoken to us through the writer by the inspirartion of the Holy Spirit) the guidelines for an (A)postles and no one today can meet that qualification.
So, bercause of these verses, I don’t believe that the men on the Apostolic list under the direction of C. Peter Wagner are true (A)postles. All I need is two witnesses to say that I am an (A)postles, pay my $500.00 dollars (1/2 price if I live in Canada) and I would be considered an
(A)postle. Sorry, just doesn’t fly with me.
November 12, 2007 at 11:02 am
Peg
Kim wrote: “Prayerwalking, spiritual mapping, binding territorial demons, using methods like driving stakes, spraying oil, drawing crosses, going up on mountains and blowing shofars and hundreds of other methods are not to be found in Scripture.”
With the exception of prayerwalking (walking while praying) and blowing shofars (playing very very noisy musical instruments) the rest of that stuff is, all theology aside, just plain WEIRD. Why do people even give it the time of day?
“New Apostolic Reformation” – Ah! OK I get it now. Had to run a Google search on it in order to find a description in plain English. NAR is an outgrowth of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements that is “post-denominational” and attempting to essentially reorganize the church along apostolic and prophetic lines, using the Charistmatic Gifts as guides. Does that definition make sense to everyone?
So to pick the definition apart apologetically……
(1) This is a Charistmatic/Pentecostal issue. Disagreements are permitted and do not automatically constitute heresy.
(2) Charismaticism (or lack of it) is a non-essential.
(3) “Post-denominational” – #1 the denominations aren’t dead yet. #2 it seems like the “in thing” to be “post”-everything nowadays. Is this an essential? No. Do I take it seriously? Nope.
(4) “reorganize the church along apostolic and prophetic lines” – anyone who SERIOUSLY believes this needs to go spend a few years studying their church history. Is this an essential? No. Is this faulty, illogical thinking? You bet, and I would dismiss it on those grounds.
Rationales for dismissal:
(a) The vast majority of worldwide churches do not want to be reorganized and will resist any efforts to do so.
(b) while it is true prophecy exists in our day, Lee is correct in her definition: “primarily a forthtelling from the Holy Spirit” — that’s exactly how my pastor, who has the gift, describes it. Nothing earth-shattering there.
(c) “apostolic” means “of the apostles” and the Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, and Episcopal churches can all trace their priests and bishops, hands-on-heads, in a direct line back to one of the 12 original apostles (this is called “apostolic succession”). Good luck proving a brand new succession that just appeared this century! (BTW — that’s exactly what the Mormons have attempted to do… they claim Joseph Smith is a “new apostle” and all Mormon clergy are hands-on-heads from him.) If you define “apostolic” any other way (which I can) it negates any pretenses to authority.
Sorry if that’s too hairy.
Bottom line is this:
I’m going to add one more item to our list of “essentials” if that’s OK with everyone:
#31. While God cannot be fully understood by human reason, He is a reasonable God who teaches us to use our minds. “Come let us reason together” says the Lord. If something is patently illogical it is most likely not of God and can be dismissed on the grounds of reason alone even without supporting scriptures.
BTW there are two other essentials I forgot to list:
#32. God is love.
#33. God loves YOU!
🙂
G’night all,
Peg
November 12, 2007 at 11:19 am
John Burton
It may take some discussion, but I tend to disagree with the following statement:
If something is patently illogical it is most likely not of God and can be dismissed on the grounds of reason alone even without supporting scriptures.
Good post, though Peg.
November 12, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Lee
“That’s a significant problem… the issue of authority is extremely biblical. That’s the basis of my Covens book… when we arbitrarily decide that we are unsubmitted to those whom God has put into our lives as leaders, anarchy and rebellion is the result.”
Yes, authority to one’s that God actually places in positions of authority — NOT those who place themselves there on their own as the ICA have done.
“Many say that they will only submit to the point which they agree with their leader. That’s not submission at all. Submission is actually highlighted when we don’t agree with a leader.”
When said “leader” is espousing falsehoods, then I will not submit. I submit to God and the Word first and foremost. If there’s a contradiction between the Word of God and a “leader,” the Word will win out each time!