The first time i heard of Rick Warren was when that kidnapped women supposedly saved her captor. Remember this:
New York Times
September 28, 2005
Celebrated Hostage Gave Crystal Meth to Captor
By EDWARD WYATT Ashley Smith, who was held hostage in her apartment in March by the man now charged with murder in the Atlanta courthouse shootings, was hailed as a hero after she disclosed how she had persuaded her captor to surrender, partly by reading to him from the spiritual best seller “The Purpose-Driven Life.”But in a memoir released yesterday, Ms. Smith also recounts that she gave the kidnapper some of her supply of crystal methamphetamine during her captivity and that she did not tell the police for some time afterward.
***************
Almost 2 years have passed since that incident. I do not know what has happened since to that women or her kidnapper but i sure know a lot more about Rick Warren.
When i first heard of “The Purpose-Driven Life” i assumed that it was probably a good book and full of inspiration for the Christian life. But here is what i discovered instead….
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/saddleback_church.html
by David Cloud
Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, pastored by Rick Warren, is one of the most influential churches in the world. Warren says, “This is a world class church making a world class impact.” He is right about the impact, but sadly that impact is not encouraging strict faithfulness to God’s Word. Everything about Saddleback is shallow. Truth has been boiled down to such a low common denominator that not much is left. For example, the Saddleback Statement of Faith has six simple points.
Note the following statement on salvation, which we are quoting in full: “Salvation is a gift from God to mankind. We can never make up for our sin by self-improvement or good works. Only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God’s offer of forgiveness can we be saved from sin’s penalty. Eternal life begins the moment we receive Jesus Christ into our life by faith.”
Note that the gospel is not actually given in this statement. There is nothing about Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, nothing about His shed blood and atonement. Sinners are exhorted to trust Christ but that is not explained in any sense whatsoever.God has commanded us not only to believe sound doctrine but also to earnestly contend for it (Jude 3).
That means we are to fight aggressively against that which is false. This is exactly what we see in the uncompromising ministry of the Lord’s apostles. Their epistles contain strong and clear warnings about false teaching. Paul often named the names of the false teachers. Such a ministry naturally causes divisions between those who are committed to the truth and those who are following error. Paul made no effort whatsoever to avoid doctrinal controversy.
Our day is described plainly in Bible prophecy: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
Rick Warren claims that he has not compromised the Word of God with his principles and methods, that he has only modernized them; but when I look into the book of Acts and the Epistles I see a different kind of Christianity, a different kind of church there, than the one that Rick Warren has devised. Thus I must reject Warren’s Purpose Driven methods and I must warn those who have an ear to hear, regardless of how small that crowd may be, that they not heed the siren call of the contemporary church growth gurus. It is fearful that this church is influencing thousands around the world.
*****************
Have you heard of Warrens Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan? What possibly could be wrong with wanting peace on this earth. Well, plenty….the way Warren is planning to achieve this peace. Wait a minute..doesn’t the Bible predicts wars and rumors of war? Does Christ ever predict peace before his return? Nope. Here is what P.E.A.C.E. actually stands for:
P – promoting reconciliation
E – equip leaders
A – assist the poor
C – care for the sick
E – educate the next generation
Sounds great doesn’t it? But let’s take a look at Matthew 24:6-11 Here is what Jesus says about the signs of His return.
Mat 24:6 “And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these things are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
I attended a kick-off celebration at a neighboring church who is signing on to the “40 days of Community”. The workbook i purchased from their table is subtitled, “Better Together…What on earth are we here for? A CHURCHWIDE SPIRITUAL GROWTH CAMPAIGN.” First we watched a video of Rick Warren. The ad in the New Age section* of my local paper said he was speaking at the church, but this didn’t happen. The pastor called the video a “Rick-Fix”. Here are some of the pastors quotes:
You cannot fulfill God’s purposes by yourself.
The 40 Days of Community takes us from, me and God, to we and God.
Do this as a cell group.
We are to impress others with our love of others.
We are to focus on our relationships together.
We have the longing for belonging.
The key in interdependence.
Okay, so here we have a program that is stressing the relationships that we have with one another instead of the relationship that we have with God. On our little worksheet that was handed out to us, we learned that the “Community” is God’s answer to lonliness, getting more work done, defeat, waiting, and witnessing.
Here is where i lost it….What is witnessing the pastor asked? “SPREADING THE LIFE MESSAGE” was the answer.
Life message? Hello….Excuse me? What about the Gospel? Is this what Rick Warrens main thrust is. THE LIFE MESSAGE. I am still not over this. Let’s thumb through the book.
pg. 30 ” This is your chance to choose your spiritual legacy, which will also transform your physical legacy.”
(I thought we were to do God’s will for us, that He had plan for our lives…does this mean i get to choose God’s will for me? My spiritual legacy? I have no desire for legacy. All the Glory is for God, not man…..)
pg. 44 “We is more powerful than me.”
pg. 57 “The bottom line is this: People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. Non-believers, like most of us, are looking for deep, true, supportive friendships.”
(Not me…i search only for Christ, He takes care of the rest)
pg 59 You’ve got to spend time with nonbelievers in order to becomes friends with them.”
( I thought we were not be friends with the world but to be separate)
There is some really good stuff in the book too. Inspirational but that’s about it…This is a book about good works. Good works…is…er…good!… but even a non-believer can do good works, so what is the difference here? This body of good-workers support and love and pray for each other….This is absolutely wonderful…but? Okay, time to move on.. let us take a look at the Missions Projects Booklet and see what this particular church has selected. Food drive, county park clean-up, Crisis Clinic, HIV/Aids Foundation, Hospice of *****County, God’s Kitchen and Closet…OK.. again all good stuff. BUT NO EVANGELIZING……There is NO training for evangelizing, no mention of evangelizing.
What is the Great Commission?
Great Commission
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Christian tradition, the Great Commission is the instruction of the resurrected Jesus Christ to his disciples, that they spread his teachings to all the nations of the world.
************************************
Scanning this book “Better Together”, it is very easy to pick up on questionable statements. But the rule is this. I Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (KJV)
This is from the King James Version. “Better Together” uses the NIV, GW, CEV, NCV, NLT, LB, Msg, TEV,GNB, NASB, NKJV, NJB, and the ESV. It must be nice to have so many versions to select from. In fact, there are thirteen versions. Then you can select the version that best matches the point you want to make.
I applaud those who want to serve Christ and do His will, and encourage those who in His will are seeking the lost and spreading the Gospel. But many professing Christians do not even know what the gospel message is. The Gospel is this…Jesus died and rose again, and He took our sins upon Himself. We need to repent of our sin and turn AWAY from it. It is our faith that leads and sustains us as our santification grows in Christ.
What is Christ asking you to do for Him today? By having a relationship with the Lord, He will reveal what His specific plan is for you. He will lead you. He will guide you. Yes, we need our brothers and sisters in Christ, but His will be done…not our will that is created by another man’s agenda.
kim
DiscernIt 
145 comments
Comments feed for this article
September 28, 2007 at 10:13 am
arm5
I have read his book.Theres a lot in his book that I do not again. He promotes a social type of gospel. I do agree with you that his book is based on works. When it should be based on what christ can do through you to reach the lost.
September 28, 2007 at 7:20 pm
IWanthetruth
After 11 years of firsrhand “experience” in a Purpose Driven Church” I can attest to the fact that there is a different gospel being preached. And more recently, even sermons based off of a book that is recognized as an author within the Emerging/Emergent Church.
Too bad it took me 11 years to discover the truth, but I thank the Lord for opening my eyes. I am being moved to another fellowship, but I do want to say that thepeople of this type of church (leaders, etc.) are genuine in their belief and have a real heart for leading people to the Lord. I just wish it was being done with more truth.
September 28, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Kim
arm5 – Yes…you are so right. Warren is promoting a social gospel that is weak on the salvation message. People are flocking to churches that do not require them to turn away from sin. Sin is minimized.
Hi IWTT – Thank you for sharing your personal experience. I have read about or talked with others who have been involved with bible studies using a book from an emergent or contemplative author. Most go right along, then there are a few that the Holy Spirit pricks their conscience with “something isn’t right”.
It is true that many involved in social gospel teachings “are genuine in their belief”. When i visited this PDC last week there were two women there from my BSF bible study class. I briefly talked with them that i was there as an observer and that i wasn’t a fan of RW. I know these two women love the Lord with all their hearts. Maybe that is why the Lord led me to attend the “kick-off”, to kindly but briefly express doubt in the program.
September 29, 2007 at 3:37 am
IWanthetruth
I have recently resign/retired from from all ministry at the church. I was a paid part time staffer but I just can’t do it anymore. The lights have “gone on” and time to go. I haven’t found a fellowship yet but there are a few where I live that I have checked into and though they are not perfect they are not comprimising the word.
October 13, 2007 at 1:44 am
IWanthetruth
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue89.htm
Another great article on the PDL Church…..
October 23, 2007 at 12:39 am
www.cellulitediary.info » Crisis in the Church — Rick Warren
[…] Kim added an interesting post today on Crisis in the Church â Rick Warren.Here’s a small reading:This body of good-workers support and love and pray for each other….This is absolutely wonderful…but? Okay, time to move on.. let us take a look at the Missions Projects Booklet and see what this particular church has selected. … […]
November 16, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Anonymous
Don’t waste your time tearing down RW…it’s not your job. God will judge all pastors…why not put your time into reaching people for the kingdom as RW does.
November 16, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Kim
All throughout the New Testament the Bible warns of false prophets. We are to test the fruit. Anyone who is in leadership should be tested against the Word of God. You must test the things i say also.
November 16, 2007 at 11:48 pm
IBIJ
Anonymous,
Why is it that so many people think that we are not reaching others for Christ? Do people think that we really spend that much time on these sites and do nothing else?
But I agree with you, God will judge all teachers of the church. They will be made accountable.
November 16, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Lee
Just yesterday I was listening to our local Christian talk radio station. I came in mid-message and had no idea who was speaking. The basic subject was the orphans in Africa — those orphaned primarily because of AIDS. He stressed the importance of giving to orphans — a worthy goal, of course. However, he stressed it to the point of it being one of the goals, if not THE primary goal, of the Christian.
Within the message he used the New Age buzzword “global” quite a few times. Then the shocker came. I’ll have to paraphrase as I don’t recall the exact words, but it was something to the effect that it’s the church which has the means and the church’s responsibility to redistribute wealth! This, of course, is the goal of New Agers and is indicative of the Antichrist (Revelation 13).
Who was speaking? It was none other than Rick Warren of whom Rupert Murdoch commented [paraphrased], “He’s the most global thinking man I know.” Murdoch referred to Warren as his personal pastor. Is Murdoch saved? Here’s an interesting article:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55616
November 17, 2007 at 12:26 am
Mary
Lee,
That news is downright depressing and shows how a social gospel is another gospel.
anonymous,
There are many nonchristians (my father for one) who watch the news and follow rick warren thinking he is the model of a true christian. Because it takes a secular news station to connect the dots of hypocracy in the Saddle back church is sad to say the least.
And because Rick Warren does nothing to correct his flock is to mock God. For the sake of the unsaved and to remind us believers of the dangers of the times we live in it is necessary to remind ourselves of the dangerous times we live in. Not long ago I bought my father Rick Warren’s PDL not knowing enough about it. I have that to live with as my 90 yr. old father now thinks he is going to heaven because of the watered down drible that book promotes.
November 17, 2007 at 4:29 am
Mary
For the sake of the unsaved and to remind us believers of the dangers of the times we live in it is necessary to remind ourselves of the dangerous times we live in. ????
ha ha sorry about that.
March 1, 2008 at 8:45 am
Richard Abanes
Please, everyone, Rick Warren is not teaching a social gospel. I would hope and pray that you just take a few more moments to read documented statements that are concrete regarding exactly what Warren does teach regarding the P.E.A.C.E. Plan, which is actually one big evangelism strategy. And also that you would take the time to read/listen to the Gospel he preaches.
For the PEACE Plan see:
http://abanes.com/peace.html
http://abanes.com/reformation.html
http://abanes.com/unequally_yoked.html
For Rick Warren’s theological teachings, see
http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html
http://abanes.com/warrenessentials.html
Thank you and enjoy.
R. Abanes
March 1, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Kim
I took a look at some of the quotes you provided….and I am wondering…You do not have a problem with these?????
You don’t seek God; He seeks you” (Warren, “God’s Final Verdict,” sermon, n.d.).
“The biblical term for ‘changing your mind’ is ‘repentance’—What do most people think of when I say the word ‘repent’? . . . They think of some kook. But the word ‘repentance’ is a wonderful word—metanoia—which means in Greek ‘to change your mind.’ Repentance is just changing the way we think about something by accepting the way God thinks about it. That’s all repentance is. . . . Changing the way I act is the fruit of repentance. Technically, repentance is not behavioral change. Behavior change is the result of repentance. Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin. Repentance simply means to change your mind. (Ministry Toolbox, Issue #246, 2/15/2006). (Ministry Toolbox, Issue #246, 2/15/2006).
“Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin”…????
This is a twisted explanation. The Greek does say “to change your mind”. but to say that we are not to forsake our sin???
Yes, of course we are to forsake sin. Let’s look at 1 Thessalonians 1:9b…”You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God.” When you forsake sin you “turn around and face the other direction”. And repentance is NOt WORKS, which is heavily promoted in the PDL. We have to be willing to let the Lord work in us.
And repentance even has a condition. Sorrow.
2 Cor 7:10 “For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation.”
Then how far should repetance go? With all your heart…
The best studies i have read are from Herescope who go into a very detailed probe into the P.E.A.C.E. plan.
http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=P.E.A.C.E.
Above, you will how RW is linked with the UN plans. C. Peter Wagner, Peter Drucker, and Dominionism by Kingdom building.
Another study i found most helpful about Warren is:
“In the Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity.”
This is one frightening study because it links New Age thought and Warren.
Lets look at some quotes
“Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamental, secular fundamentalism – they’re all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.” The Philadelphia Inquirere 1/8/06 (Rick Warren)
“And when you add in all the different peoples of faith who would be people of peace, you know, when you talk poverty and disease and illiteracy these are not Christian issues, they are human issure, and i will work with anybody who wants to work on them.” (Rick Warren)
“The inner relationships and cooperation Must be established and developed, in spite of the outer divergenses of opinion. When the inner link is held in love, and when disciples stand shoulder to shoulder in the one work, then the differences, the divergences, and the points of disagreement will automatically be overcome.”
“But to love and service..This will break down all barriers, its quality that of universality, and its technique that of loving service. The time has come when service must expand the express itself on broader and more inclusive lines, and we must learn to serve as Christ serve…and love and become members of the kingdom.”
“When such men can be gathered together in large numbers (and they are gathering rapidly) we shall have the fulfillment of angels=song at Bethlehem, ‘On earth peace, good will toward men.”‘
So what is the problem with the last three quotes, you may ask….
They are not from Rick Warren….even they sound like him.
They are from Alice A. Bailey who channeled Djwhal Khul, an ascended master. Alice Bailey owned Lucis Publishing Company which was formerly called Lucifer Publishing..the name was changed for obvious reasons.
Bailey writes that the goal of the ascended masters was to infiltrate the church. That is what we are seeing today.
Look at Hartzell’s site…
http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org
I want you to see two more comparisons—-
Rick Warren is explaining to his colleagues the stragety of building a new spirituality and the problems when the congregation hangs on to the old…
“Just go in there and build the new thing and let the other stuff kind of crumble away. It saves you a lot of war.”
Now from Alice Bailey
“It is easier to swing the masses into step and give them newer light of truth if that light is poured on to familiar ground.”
Page 177 (In the Name of Unity)
Rick Warren
“We believe we can learn truth — I’ve learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth”
H.P. Blavatsky, Occult Theosophist
“Therefore, that a portion of the truth, great or small, is found in every religious and philosophical system.”
Rick Warren is a dangerous teacher who lays deception along the side of truth. This is indeed a most dangerous deception. Read the doctrine of demons and they begin to sound like the church of today.
March 4, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Richard Abanes
PART 1
KIM: You don’t seek God; He seeks you” (Warren, “God’s Final Verdict,” sermon, n.d.).
RA: Well, that’s what what the Bible says:
* Men are born in sin (Rom 5:12, Psa 51:5, Psa 58:3a)
* Men are spiritually dead and slaves to sin (Luke 9:60, Eph 2:5, John 3:19, Rom 6:18-20)
* Minds and hearts of men are corrupt (Rom 3:11, 1 Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7, Eph 4:18, Eccl 9:3, Jer 17:9)
* Men cannot repent, believe, or come to Christ by themselves (2 Tim 2:25, Acts 11:18, John 6:29, Heb 12:2, John 6:44)
Did you forget Romans 3:10-11: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
– – – –
KIM: “Repentance does not mean forsaking your sin”…????
RA: Uhm, no it doesn’t. The greek means “changing your mind or direction.” The FRUIT of repentance (a changed life) is the outward forsaking of sin, which deomstrates the inward change of heart (i.e., repentance).
– – – –
KIM: “This is a twisted explanation. The Greek does say “to change your mind”. but to say that we are not to forsake our sin???
RA: It’s not twisted at all. Read above. Repentance is internal, forsaking sin as the fruit of repentance is external. You are confusing them
– – – –
KIM: Yes, of course we are to forsake sin. Let’s look at 1 Thessalonians 1:9b…”You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God.” When you forsake sin you “turn around and face the other direction”. And repentance is NOT WORKS, which is heavily promoted in the PDL. We have to be willing to let the Lord work in us.
RA: You’re not saying anything I don’t agree with. You’re barking up the worng tree. I’m not a Mormon. And works is NOT heavily promoted anywhere in PDL. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. That’s what Warren teaches. Works result in eternal reward — Remember that whole teahcing by Jesus about story up your treasure in heaven?
– – – –
KIM: And repentance even has a condition. Sorrow. 2 Cor 7:10 “For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation.” Then how far should repetance go? With all your heart…
RA: And…… who has said anything different?? Certainly not me. And certainly not Warren. These links I gave you about Warren’s theological teachings contradict nothing biblical:
http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html
http://abanes.com/warrenessentials.html
– – – –
KIM: The best studies i have read are from Herescope who go into a very detailed probe into the P.E.A.C.E. plan.
RA: To bad they don’t get teh PEACE PLAN at all, and are trying to set it up as something it is not. What it IS, is an an all-encompassing evangelism strategy designed to not only help the suffering, but more importantly, remove the barriers to preaching the Gospel to people throughout the world (spiritual emptiness, corrupt leadership, poverty, disease, and illiteracy). I suggest you take another look at my article “What is the PEACE Plan? (see http://abanes.com/peace.html …),specifically under the sub-heading “An Evangelistic Strategy.” That is the truth. If you can contradict that documentation — please do so.
March 4, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Richard Abanes
PART 2
– – – –
KIM: Above, you will how RW is linked with the UN plans. C. Peter Wagner, Peter Drucker, and Dominionism by Kingdom building.
RA: All of this has been dealt with. And oh, BTW, Warren is NOT a dominionist or into dominionism. That is yet another lie being spread (sigh). I discuss is so-called dominionism in my article “Paul Proctor: No Peace for You, under the repsonse to Proctor #9, http://abanes.com/proctorpeace.html ).
– – – –
KIM: This is one frightening study because it links New Age thought and Warren.
RA: I’ll bet it is — frightening in how many lies it contains. My friend, you have been lied to by many people who are cleverly using half-truths, misinformation, disinformation, and bizarre word games to make their points about Warren’s so-called ties to the New Age. You want to see what Warren has said about the New Age and it’s doctrines? Fine, go here to this article (Is Rick Warren A New Ager?, http://abanes.com/Warren_New_Age.html ). One of the worst spreaders of false info on Rick Warren and the New Age is Warren Smith. To see where he has not been accurate, see these articles:
http://abanes.com/ccsac.html
http://abanes.com/warrensmith_conspiracy.html
http://abanes.com/warrensmith_morelies.html
http://abanes.com/warrensmith.html
March 4, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Richard Abanes
PART 3
– – – – –
KIM: Lets look at some quotes.
RA: Indeed. let’s look at them because they show perfectly exactly what I am saying. You are being lied to and deceived by men who are misusing such quotes and giving you only 1/2 the story:
– “Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamental, secular fundamentalism – they’re all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.” The Philadelphia Inquirere 1/8/06 (Rick Warren)
SEE THIS ARTICLE: http://abanes.com/fundamentalism.html
“And when you add in all the different peoples of faith who would be people of peace, you know, when you talk poverty and disease and illiteracy these are not Christian issues, they are human issure, and i will work with anybody who wants to work on them.” (Rick Warren)
SEE THIS ARTICLE: http://abanes.com/unequally_yoked.html
– – – –
KIM: So what is the problem with the last three quotes, you may ask….They are not from Rick Warren….even they sound like him. They are from Alice A. Bailey who channeled Djwhal Khul, an ascended master. Alice Bailey owned Lucis Publishing Company which was formerly called Lucifer Publishing..the name was changed for obvious reasons.
RA: Your reasoning is HIGHLY flawed (sorry to be blunt). Similarity of words/terms or even extended messages does NOT necessarily mean similarity of thought or meaning or intention. Most religions, for example, use the word “God.” Does it mean the same thing? No. And many religions refer to Jesus Christ. Do they mean the same thing? Hardly. A lot of uclts take about serving your fellow man and being loving and respectful to others. Does that mean now suddenly we cannot say the same thing, but in the context of our fiath have a TOTALLY different meaning? Of course not.
Rick Warren is speaking and teaching and preaching from the context/paradigm/worldview of a Christian. And THAT is teh context in which you are to interpret his words. You do not look at a Christian and interpret what he says as if he were a New Ager. To see what Warren believes, see:
http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html
http://abanes.com/warrenessentials.html
– – – –
KIM: Rick Warren is a dangerous teacher who lays deception along the side of truth. This is indeed a most dangerous deception. Read the doctrine of demons and they begin to sound like the church of today.
RA: All who have shown are similarities in words, terms, and phrases. YOU HAVE NOT shown the intentions and meanings behind those things are exactly the same (or even remotely similar). You are ASSUMING that they are based on some preconceived notion that Warren is a New Ager. That is not how to do apologetics.
March 4, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Kim
I must say that I didn’t learn much from the links you gave…Then I found out from Tamara Hartzell’s “In the Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity”, that you are Rick Warren’s biographer. You are too involved here to be partial and have too much at stake to be wrong. Hence the many rationalizations. Many of the links you gave were written by yourself.
I admire all the sites you hate because they are discernment sites. So I guess they are all wrong and you are right!! (You called them heresy-hunters.)
Most all dominionists who are involved in the New Reformation, (the attempt to reestablish the offices of apostles and prophets) like this term.
I like what Paul Washer says about interpreting scripture to form doctrine and using hermeneutics.
“You always do your theology in the context of the church. Now what does that mean? When you study scripture and you interpret scripture and you form doctrine, you need to go back into church history. You need to compare what you have discovered with what everyone has discovered throughout history. If they are in agreement and you disagree with them, you are probably wrong.”
Lets look at:
“Rick Warren claims he will do this with his billion man army. His billion man army from where I might ask? there are only several hundred million true Christians on the whole earth. I guess General Warren’s plan is to draft pseudo Christians and Moslems into his billion man army and expect everyone to follow his marching orders.”
(From Let Us Reason Ministries) Mike Oppenehimer
Mat 7:13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
Mat 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Usually I show this passage to New-Agers because they do not believe that Jesus is the only way and do believe that there will be a universal spirituality which will connect to God and this is how mankind will be saved. But there will be no huge universal salvation coming, no billion man army because “straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”
Oh yeah, there might be a billion man army…but it will have nothing to do with God.
No…I do not think I am deceived. Sorry but I think you are…..
Kim
March 11, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Richard Abanes
KIM: I must say that I didn’t learn much from the links you gave…
RA: That’s odd since the links demonstrate what Rick Warren teaches and believes from his own lips> It’s nothing that needs interpretation. The links I gave you is the gospel message based on scripture that teaches the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins and salvation by grace alone thru faith alone. It means NOTHING for you to see that this is what Rick Warren teaches? Please do highlight where in those links you see Warren teaching anything unbiblical.
_______
KIM: …. you are Rick Warren’s biographer. You are too involved here to be partial and have too much at stake to be wrong. Hence the many rationalizations. Many of the links you gave were written by yourself.
RA: Incorrect. I am not “his” biographer. I am a respected Christian journalist/author who has written numerous volumes all a wide variety of issues relating to apologetics, defending the Christian faith, and issues relating to cults, the occult, and world religions. I have written 1 book on Rick Warren out of nearly 20 that I have authored. And it is simply another issue I have covered/researched. And if you could provide proof that I am “partial” please give that proof publicly. And also, exactly what do I have that is “at stake.” I find that you seem to be making more accusations, but not really proving anything. I am certainly open to proof.
_________
KIM: I admire all the sites you hate because they are discernment sites. So I guess they are all wrong and you are right!! (You called them heresy-hunters.)
RA: Yes. They are indeed wrong because they are simply not telling the truth. And I have provided you with statements and evidence that shows what they have said is false.
_________
KIM: Most all dominionists who are involved in the New Reformation, (the attempt to reestablish the offices of apostles and prophets) like this term.
RA: Rick Warren is NOT a dominionist. And you cannot make it true by simply saying it over and over. Rick Warren is a Southern Baptist who teaches a premillennial return of Christ. This is found in the official publications of Saddleback Church.
___________
KIM: “Rick Warren claims he will do this with his billion man army. His billion man army from where I might ask? there are only several hundred million true Christians on the whole earth. I guess General Warren’s plan is to draft pseudo Christians and Moslems into his billion man army and expect everyone to follow his marching orders.”
RA: This misrepresentation is answered in the PEACE Plan link I gave you. Stop misrepresenting what Warren is saying.
_______
KIM: No…I do not think I am deceived. Sorry but I think you are…..
RA: If you are NOT deceive, then you are willfully sinning by ignoring the facts and continuing to spread rumors and a false accusations. Sister, please, the information/truth is there. I ask in Christ”s name that you stop, and consider the facts/truth and set aside this agenda to paint Warren as an enemy.
March 11, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Kim
I am not interested in following a man like Rick Warren…But i do follow and serve Jesus Christ. If He were to ask me to leave all i own…i would do so..if were to ask me to leave my friends and family, i would.
I am not interested in following the multitudes, for this is the way of destruction.
I have already considered the facts. I have prayed that my eyes be opened to all deception.
You think that i am willingly sinning? What i do is read the Word of God and let my Savior tell me the truth….His word divides the truth and false teachings. It is the only way.
March 11, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Richard Abanes
KIM: I am not interested in following a man like Rick Warren…
RA: I wouldn’t want you to. Who said anything about following any man, including Rick Warren. What I am talking about is not falsely accusing the brethren. That’s all. Nothing more.
________
KIM: But i do follow and serve Jesus Christ.
RA: As do I. As does Rick Warren. As does Chuck Smith. And many other brothers and sisters. We are told to love each other, dwell in unity, not lie about each other, not bear false witness. That is what I am talking about.
________
KIM: If He were to ask me to leave all i own…i would do so..if were to ask me to leave my friends and family, i would.
RA: I agree 100%. He is our Savior, Lord, God, and King.
________
KIM: I am not interested in following the multitudes, for this is the way of destruction. I have already considered the facts. I have prayed that my eyes be opened to all deception.
RA: All you need to do is look at what Warren teaches about our Lord and Savior to see he is a Christian preaching the gospel. The info I gave you clearly shows not only that, but also where he has been misrepresented and where his words have been twisted by the so-called “discerners.”
________
KIM: You think that i am willingly sinning?
RA: I never said that. I said if you are not being deceived, then you are willingly sinning. You are being lied to, and sadly, you are believing what you are being told by these people, which runs contrary to truth and facts.
________
KIM: What i do is read the Word of God and let my Savior tell me the truth….His word divides the truth and false teachings. It is the only way.
RA: Then, you read the Word, and compare it to the gospel being preached by Warren in the links I gave, and you tell me where he has contradicted the Gospel of Jesus.
http://abanes.com/cross_sin_hell.html
http://abanes.com/warrenessentials.html
March 11, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Kim
Rick Warren could say John 14:6 a zillion times…
“I am the way and the truth and the life, No one come to the Father except through me….
But the problem is that Satan know scripture too.
So here is the problem…
“We believe we can learn truth — I’ve learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth” (Rick Warren)
This is a false teaching. Would you explain why it is not, without posting some link?
**************
Okay..im leaving for a couple of days and will be on the road…See you all later.
March 12, 2008 at 6:23 am
Leigh
RA, I have to support Kim in her stand against the false teachings of Rick Warren.
He may be a Christian but his teachings are leading the sheep into the mouth of wolves who tear the flock apart. He is linked to many New Agers like Richard Foster and Ken Blanchard, he uses alot of quotes from Catholic Mystics such as Brother Laurence, Thomas Merton, and St John of the Cross.
Recently he had a session with the Jewish synagogue leaders on how to increase numbers in their synagogues and supported the Syrian terrorists who kill thousands of Jewish people. How can a truely born again Christian do these things.
I would suggest that you go to Lighthousetrailsresearch.com and do some hard research and pray that the Lord removes the scales from your eyes.
March 12, 2008 at 7:27 am
Mary
“Recently he had a session with the Jewish synagogue leaders on how to increase numbers in their synagogues”
wow, obsession of numbers ….isn’t that what got David into such deep trouble?
Richard, I agree with Kim and Leigh, Rick Warren is a dangerous false teacher.
March 12, 2008 at 8:52 am
Mary
There is a great article on Kim’s link:
Understand The Times called :
Like Sheep Being Led To Slaughter.
That seems to explain it all very well.
March 12, 2008 at 11:18 am
TimH
I come from a church that is very much Saddleback, rick Warren methodology. Many are beginning to see that there is something wrong in the teachings and doctrines of these methods and the foundation of the doctrine. They are questioning very seriously the teachings. Seems to fit Plegiasm which was considred a heresy around 450 AD or so.
Are you saying RF that this is not true and if so what theology is Rick Warren following in your estimation?
March 13, 2008 at 7:16 am
RA
Are you talking about pelagianism and semi-pelagianism? LOL. This is hardly Rick Warren. Pelagianism rejects original sin and preaches that man in inherently good. Here is a link pelagianism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagianism. Rick Warren preaches that we are all sinners in need of salvation that comes only via Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and resurrection. And that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. What theology is that? I would say it’s Christian.
March 13, 2008 at 7:16 am
Richard Abanes
KIM: “We believe we can learn truth — I’ve learned a lot of truth from different religions. Because they all have a portion of the truth” (Rick Warren)
This is a false teaching. Would you explain why it is not, without posting some link?
RA: I will be glad to explain it. All religions DO contain some truths. For example, many religions teach that it is wrong to murder. Is that true? YES! many religions teach that you are to treat your fellow man the way YOU want to be treated. Is that true? YES. Some religions teach that there exists ONLY one personal God. Is that true? YES. There is only one God. Most (if not all) religion teach that there is indeed life after death. Is this true? YES.
However, as you get more and more specific in truth claims, then THAT is where Christianity begins outdistancing other religions and arriving at the ultimate truth of Christ as lord and Savior. By way of illustration, think about the issue of truth as the following lines of a few faiths:
TRUTH
Christianity
——————————————– Jesus
Judaism
————————–Monotheism
Buddhism
——-kindness toward other
I hope you understand that saying other religions have various truths in them does NOT make those religions true! Murder is wrong. being kind is right. Loving others is appropriate and good. There is one God. Life exists after death. These are all truths that can be found in other religions even though such religions, in there wholeness, are not compatible with Christianity’s ultimate truth claims. Make sense?
You can say that another religion has some truth in it, but at the same time not support that religion in total. In fact, this has always been a GREAT point of witnessing that I have found when sharing Christ with those of other faiths! We have common ground on which i can relate to them, and then bring them further along by introducing them to Jesus. This is basic evangelism.
You CANNOT just blow past what a person like Warren says about his faith, and ignore what is taught at Saddleback in depth because of one single isolated remark that you have not taken in context of a broader picture. This is the problem with so many so-called “discerners.” They hear one sentence somewhere or one word, and instead of placing that in context, they rip it out of context, and re-interpret it as something heretical to accuse someone of something in direct contradiction to what that person actually believes or teaches.
That is NOT apologetics or defending the faith. As I said, you go listen and read what Rick Warren teaches on the doctrines of the Bible. THAT is what he is teaching, and one comment does not negate that. It fits into it. If you approach apologetics any other way, you can turn ANYONE into a heretic. It’s like taking a single verse out of the Bible and building a whole doctrine around it without looking at its context or seeing other verses that relate to the same issue. The cults do this all the time and that is how they can build some very strange doctrines even using God’s holy Word.
March 13, 2008 at 10:57 am
Leigh
Richard, It is as Kim says, there is an element of truth in all religions. But just as teaspoon of arsnic in a sweet cup of tea will kill you so will the percentage of error in those religions take them to Hell.
By Rick Warren endorsing some of these faiths like the Muslims and Jews and the New Age, he is encouraging gullible Christians to flirt with danger.
” A little Leaven spoils the whole lump.” We are told also to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, and do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers{ 2 Cor 6:14-18}.
Rick Warren and many other Evangelical Christians recently signed an accord with the Muslim Faith to have dialogue because they had Father Abraham as a common hero of the Faith. http://www.yale.edu/faith/abou-commonword.htm This flies in the face of the previously quoted verse in 2 Cor 6.
I am afraid Richard that you as many others are blinded by the god of this world and will continue to travel the road to eucmedical oneness and tie yourself to Rome, the whore of Babylon. Those doing this will end up in a Christless Eternity. Do not say that you were never warned.
March 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Richard Abanes
LEIGH: Richard, It is as Kim says, there is an element of truth in all religions. But just as teaspoon of arsnic in a sweet cup of tea will kill you so will the percentage of error in those religions take them to Hell.
RA: Leigh. Are you reading what I am saying? Where did I ever imply that other religions will not eventually lead to a Christless eternity? Here, let me be clear, Christ is the ONLY way no matter how many snippets of truth can be found elsewhere. Did you think I meant anything else?
I clearly stated: “You can say that another religion has some truth in it, but at the same time not support that religion in total.” I also said: “this has always been a GREAT point of witnessing that I have found when sharing Christ with those of other faiths! We have common ground on which i can relate to them, and then bring them further along by introducing them to Jesus. This is basic evangelism.”
So, exactly why are you even making this particular comment. I agree with you 100% on the point.
———-
LEIGH: By Rick Warren endorsing some of these faiths like the Muslims and Jews and the New Age, he is encouraging gullible Christians to flirt with danger. ” A little Leaven spoils the whole lump.” We are told also to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness, and do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers{ 2 Cor 6:14-18}.
RA: What are you reading???? Rick Warren has never “endorsed” these religions. He is saying the obvious — i.e., that there are indeed some truth in all religions. That is NOT a heretical comment in the least. It is a simple statement of fact, as I showed from my examples. NOW, if you want to see more in-depth comments about how Warren feels about other religions (for example, the New Age), you can check out this link:
http://abanes.com/Warren_New_Age.html
——-
LEIGH: Rick Warren and many other Evangelical Christians recently signed an accord with the Muslim Faith to have dialogue because they had Father Abraham as a common hero of the Faith. http://www.yale.edu/faith/abou-commonword.htm This flies in the face of the previously quoted verse in 2 Cor 6.
RA: Well, first of all, they do. Secondly, I think that particular document was more of a POLITICAL document to try and alleviate some of the tensions in the world between Muslims and Christians. It was NOT meant as some kind of endorsement of Islam as a whole or a support for the various false beliefs that con be found in Islam. Again, signing such a document is NOT heretical. Nor does it make Warren a false teacher. It was a decision he made that others disagree with — fine. But don’t make it more than it was.
——-
LEIGH: I am afraid Richard that you as many others are blinded by the god of this world and will continue to travel the road to eucmedical oneness and tie yourself to Rome, the whore of Babylon.
RA: Excuse me. But stop linking me to a whore of any kind. I left Roman Catholicism years ago. I feel very strongly about its errors. So, if you want to start accusing me of anything, I would ask that you begin by supplying a few quotes to back up your charges. I do not support ecumenism or pluralism. What I do support is unity of the Body of Christ, reconciliation, and seeking to bring others into biblical conformity. As for the place of Roman Catholicism, this is a HOTLY debated topic that has many godly Christians and scholars taking various sides/perspectives of that denomination. You clearly hold to ONE opinion of several that are held by Christians. You cannot go around leveling such harsh accusations at people and questioning their walk with Jesus because they happen to disagree with you on Roman Catholicism.
——
LEIGH: Those doing this will end up in a Christless Eternity. Do not say that you were never warned.
RA: I was warned about hell back in 1979, the year I committed my life to Jesus Christ. IF you’d like to supply ANY documentation that brings my Christianity into question, using anything I have said doctrinally that contradicts scripture, feel free to produce. Otherwise, I would very much appreciate a limit on your insinuations and implications about my faith and walk with Christ. I thank you.
March 14, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Kim
A verse that has been boucing around in my head is:
James 3:1
“Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly”
I tried to imagine myself teaching the children in my Bible study class, that there are truths in all religions. Even the thought of doing such a thing, makes me feel sick inside. I could never do this. I have a healthy fear of the Lord and i only want to please Him, and lead others to know Jesus Christ.
Here is what the Bible says of pagan religions such as Buddhism:
Psalm 96:5 “For all Gods of the nations are worthless idols”
Great examples of evangelizing are Ray Comfort and Paul Washer.
March 15, 2008 at 6:13 am
Richard Abanes
KIM,
Personally, in my opinion, you need to stop being so afraid. Scripture tells us that perfect love casts out fear. Other people and their beliefs are not the enemy. We don’t wrestle against flesh and blood, as I am sure you know. There is nothing wrong or unbiblical with simply recognizing what is true. And whether you like it or not, other religions do have some truths present in them. That is simply the way it is. And you denying that or being a afraid of that does not help anything or anyone.
Jesus is Lord. That is undeniable. God is sovereign and in control. That is undeniable. God’s Word stands true. That is also undeniable. If God is for us, who can stand against us. As I previously stated, sometimes the best witnessing encounters I have had were those where I was able to find common ground with others of a different faith. And from there we went on to discuss truths that were present in Christianity, but NOT found in their religion.
Kim, PLEASE hear me. Jesus is the ONLY way. But that does not mean other religions are void of truth in total. Need I remind you that even the writers of the New Testament borrowed FROM PAGANS various concepts relating to truth as a means of preaching the gospel!!!
Christians as far back as the first century were quoting pagans in hopes of communicating the truths of the Gospel. They saw that unbelievers, including the Greek philosophers, had made astute observations about God and possessed some truths consistent with Christianity. In the Gospel of John, for instance, we find the Greek word logos (“Word”) being used to describe Jesus. Logos was a Greek philosophical term that represented “reason” as a sort of bridge between the unreachable God and earthly matter. Hence, Jesus, as the eternal logos, is the bridge between God and man.
Like John, Paul the apostle also quoted various pagans in his attempts to share the good news of Jesus Christ with the unbelieving world. In his sermon to to the Athenians (Acts 17:22-23), he mentions their altar to THE UNKNOWN GOD! Then, he identified this “UNKNOWN GOD” with the one true God. In other words, he used their embraced truth that there was some God out there they did not know, and turned it around as a way of reaching them for Christ. Similarly, his words “we live and move, and have our being” in that very same passage is from a poem by the pagan Epimenides of Crete who was referring to the Supreme God of all gods. Are you going to call Paul a pagan, a polytheist, someone unworthy to teach your children a Bible study class? Paul also noted truths discovered by pagans in Titus 1:12 and 1 Corinthians 15;33. Now what?
—–
KIM: I tried to imagine myself teaching the children in my Bible study class, that there are truths in all religions. Even the thought of doing such a thing, makes me feel sick inside.
RA: Why? It’s true. It will do those children no good to lie to them. When they get out into the world and start meeting people of other fiaths who do NOT come off as demonic or all wrong about everything, such an encounter will only confuse them. The fact is that people of other faiths do embrace some truths and it is best that they know that so they will not be surprised when their Mormon friend says abortion is wrong, or when their Native American friend says there is only one great spirit, or when their Buddhist friend says he believes we must all be kind and love others as we love ourselves. What is important is that those children know the gospel and understand how to help another person go from the limited truths they may have in their faith, to THE TRUTH of Jesus Christ.
—
KIM: I could never do this.
RA: Then you are not helping them. You are sheltering them from the truth. The facts are the facts.
– Is it true that there is life after death?
– Is it true that there is one God?
– Is it true that the person of Jesus existed in time and space?
– Is it true that we should be kind-hearted and loving to each other?
– Is it true that our God is correctly described as the God in whom “we live and move and have our being”?
– Is it true that what we see is not the sum total of who we are–i.e., we have a spirit?
– Is it true that abortion is wrong?
– Is it true that we should live in purity and holiness because god is holy, and scripture tells us to live holy lives?
If you answered yes to ANY of these questions, then you have just admitted that other religions contain truths, because many other religions teach these things. I think you owe it to your students to prepare them, and you owe it to yourself and your Lord to face the facts.
—
KIM: Psalm 96:5 “For all Gods of the nations are worthless idols”
RA: I never said otherwise. I agree. Buddhism as a religion ultimately leads nowhere. That doesn’t mean that the faith has not grasped some truths. For example, it is a Buddhist teaching that a great deal of suffering in this life is because of our over-attachment to material things like money, sex, desires, lusts, and the craving for more, more, more. Well? That sounds fairly true to me and it is quite consistent with the many biblical passages that talk about the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. But that doesn’t mean Buddhism as a religion is true.
Think about it. pray about it. This is not unbiblical or ungodly. It is meeting truth with truth.
March 15, 2008 at 6:30 am
Richard Abanes
BTW, Kim, I do want to thank you for allowing me to post here and discuss these very important issues with you. We are on the same side.
March 15, 2008 at 11:15 am
Leigh
I think by giving all religions creedance is to say to other “yes I agree that some of what they say is true, go drink some of their poison, you will be OK”.
Othere religions are from the pit of Hell. Their god is Satan. the god of this world who is just waiting for gullible persons to walk into his snare. Like the spider said to the fly, ” come into my parlor”. It is a trap.
Paul said it straight, ” do not by unequally yoked with unbelievers”. and again ” Do not give place to the Devil”.
We are Children of the Light, we have come from the darkness and I for one have no desire to go back there so I would never say anything to put a stumbling block in the path of anyone. By saying all religions have truth is a stumbling block that just could prevent someone coming to a knowledge of Christ.
March 15, 2008 at 11:41 am
Richard Abanes
LEIGH: I think by giving all religions creedance is to say to other “yes I agree that some of what they say is true, go drink some of their poison, you will be OK”.
RA: L, I am not giving them credence, I am simply stating facts. As I asked Kim,
– Is it true that there is life after death?
– Is it true that there is one God?
– Is it true that the person of Jesus existed in time and space?
– Is it true that we should be kind-hearted and loving to each other?
– Is it true that our God is correctly described as the God in whom “we live and move and have our being”?
– Is it true that what we see is not the sum total of who we are–i.e., we have a spirit?
– Is it true that abortion is wrong?
– Is it true that we should live in purity and holiness because god is holy, and scripture tells us to live holy lives?
Sorry, but the truth and facts show that many religions do indeed embrace and advance all of the above. Whether you like that or not does not change reality. I’m sorry, but reality is reality. Now, we as Christians must learn to live with it and deal with it, or else we are left in the unenviable position of denying what is true right before our very eyes. AGAIN, why is it some difficult to simply admit that many other religions do, in fact, contain various truths. Neither John nor Paul had any problems with that (see above), why should you, or me, or any of us. This is NOT saying the other religions are true in total, or that being in them is enough to get to heaven. No, no, no. But don’t ignore the facts.
—-
LEIGH: By saying all religions have truth is a stumbling block that just could prevent someone coming to a knowledge of Christ.
RA: Uhm, no, it’s actually just stating a fact. If you can’t deal with that fact because of something in your past, then you need to take that to the Lord and ask him to help you be freed from the fear that you feel and the anxiety that overtakes you when you are faced with a simple fact of life and the world around us.
March 15, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Kim
Richard,
How interesting….
It is the new-agers who believe that i am afraid.
It is clear you misunderstand…..
Proverbs 15:16
A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil….
Proverbs 31:30
..a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools* despise wisdom and discipline.
Pro 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Pro 15:33 The fear of the Lord teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.
To allow others to believe that there is truth in pagan religions and that there can be unity between them is deceptive and i will NOT stand before the Lord in judgment because i was vague or misleading. Leigh is right…you are putting a stumbling block in front of people.
I do not believe that Leigh or myself are victims of fear and anxiety.
March 15, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Richard Abanes
KIM: It is the new-agers who believe that i am afraid.
RA: No, it’s me as a Christian who is making that analysis. A New Ager would have a very different notion of you.
—-
KIM: ………. A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil…….
RA: You sound like you fear more than just the Lord. And that was my point. You should only fear the Lord.
—-
KIM: To allow others to believe that there is truth in pagan religions and that there can be unity between them is deceptive……
RA: HOLD ON. Wait. Wait Wait. Backup there sister. You slipped some words into my mouth, I will assume unintentionally. Exactly WHERE did I say anything about “unity between them.” I never said anything about that. let’s stick to what I say, Mkay? Seriously, if we are going to reach some understanding we can’t add to what is being stated. Deal only with what I am saying. If you go back and read what i wrote you will see that I actually make a point that is the very opposite of unity. I said that points in common can be used to lead them on to Christ because it is a springboard for discussion and opening them up to THE truth of Jesus Christ, which they are lacking. Make sense?
—-
KIM: I will NOT stand before the Lord in judgment because i was vague or misleading.
RA: I’m not asking you to be either. I certainly am not. I’ve written numerous books defending the faith and pointing out exactly where other faiths/religions are in error and where they fall short of God’s truths as revealed in Christ and the scriptures. So, exactly what are we arguing about?
—
KIM: Leigh is right…you are putting a stumbling block in front of people.
RA: I am making a FACTUAL statement! Just repeating what you are repeating will not change a fact that us staring you in the face. Answer the questions I have listed.
Is it true that there is life after death?
– Is it true that there is one God?
– Is it true that the person of Jesus existed in time and space?
– Is it true that we should be kind-hearted and loving to each other?
– Is it true that our God is correctly described as the God in whom “we live and move and have our being”?
– Is it true that what we see is not the sum total of who we are–i.e., we have a spirit?
– Is it true that abortion is wrong?
– Is it true that we should live in purity and holiness because god is holy, and scripture tells us to live holy lives?
Once more, I am very, very, very sorry — but the TRUTH is that other religions would answer “yes” to these questions. That cannot be denied. To deny that fact is like saying the world is flat, or there is no gravity. And here is why I say you appear to be afraid. You seem fearful of the fact I keep presenting to you, as if agreeing with it is somehow going to make you less biblical or godly. Kim, it’s just a fact — that’s all. And it’s a fact you can recognize and STILL preach the Word without compromise, STILL share the unvarnished Gospel, and STILL protect those precious little ones you teach.
March 15, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Kim
There is no compromising Christ. All other Gods and religions are worthless.
Psalm 96:5 “For all Gods of the nations are worthless idols”
The philosophies of men are vain.
Col 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
Obviously, implications of what a person says can be very dangerous and misunderstood. If someone is led to believe that religions can be unified then they will fall into the end-time deception of the UN’s end-time religion. If i ever led anyone into the deception instead of away from it….i would be devastated… and eventually i would be judged for it.
The end-time false teachers will lay truth alongside falsehoods. Therefore i will teach that the Gods of the nations are worthless.
March 15, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Richard Abanes
KIM: There is no compromising Christ. All other Gods and religions are worthless.
RA: You’re not listening. You just keep spinning the same line in a different way and trying to make it seem like I am saying something I am not saying. Now, you are implying that I am somehow declaring that all other gods are NOT worthless. When did I say that? And what in the world does the statement, “There is no compromising Christ.” have to do with anything? I never said we SHOULD compromise Christ. Both remarks by you change nothing with regard to the various truths I pointed out that are indeed present in other religions — which, once more, does not mean that those religions are true. Can you really not understand what I am saying, or aare you understanding it, but not liking it?
—–
KIM: The philosophies of men are vain.
RA: Again, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. All you seem to be doing at this point is picking a scriptures and posting them like they’re some kind of protective shield against what I am saying. I never said a word about teh vain philosophies of men, so what are you talking about?
—-
KIM: Obviously, implications of what a person says can be very dangerous and misunderstood. If someone is led to believe that religions can be unified then they will fall into the end-time deception of the UN’s end-time religion.
RA: Yeah, well, whew, thank God that neither me nor Rick Warren has ever said anything about unifying all religions! 🙂 We’ll be sure to stand together against anything like that. Deal?
—-
KIM: The end-time false teachers will lay truth alongside falsehoods. Therefore i will teach that the Gods of the nations are worthless.
RA: HEY!!! Me too. They are worthless. I agree. Let’s keep going out there and telling them about Jesus!!!!
March 15, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Lori
Richard: Saddleback church?!?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Abanes
March 15, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Kim
“Abanes currently attends Saddleback Church (senior pastor, Rick Warren, author of The Purpose Driven Life), where he leads worship services and volunteers his time in various ministries. He also served on staff at Saddleback as its Creative Arts Director from 1998 to 2000.”
Whoa!!!!
Didn’t you think it important to share your affiliation with Saddleback?
March 15, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Richard Abanes
KIM: Whoa!!!! Didn’t you think it important to share your affiliation with Saddleback?
RA: First, this is a fairly well-known piece of information. So, I sort of assumed you knew.
Second, what does it matter? It doesn’t change any of the information, arguments, or facts that I have presented.
Third, I also did not share this information with you also from wiki:
“He is an award-winning author/journalist specializing in the area of cults, the occult, world religions, pop culture, and the entertainment industry. Since 1994 he has authored/co-authored seventeen books (as of mid-2007) covering a broad range of topics. He also has written for most major Christian magazines including: Christianity Today, New Man Magazine, Christian Retailing, CBA Marketplace, Charisma and Christian Life, Moody Magazine, and the Christian Research Journal. In 1997, Abanes won the Evangelical Press Association’s “Higher Goals In Christian Journalism Award” for his article on various non-Christian faiths that appeared in Moody Magazine. Also in 1997, he was awarded “The Myers Center Award for the Study of Human Rights in North America” for his “outstanding work on intolerance in North America” (for his book American Militias: Rebellion, Racism, and Religion). His bestselling books, according to Christian Bookseller’s Association listings, include Harry Potter and the Bible and The Truth Behind the DaVinci Code. As an experienced lecturer on many religious topics, he has been a guest speaker at various events across America including those hosted by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Cal-Tech University/Skeptic Society, Mensa, California Baptist University, Biola University, and numerous churches. As a widely recognized authority on cults/religion, pop culture, music, and the entertainment industry, Abanes also has been interviewed on hundreds of radio/TV programs including California’s KCAL News 9, Extra!, MSNBC, CNN, Hard Copy, The 700 Club, Fox-News (San Diego), The Bible Answer Man, and BBC Network.”
So there, now we know everything. How does any of this affect what we have been talking about. Truth is truth.
RA
March 15, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Kim
Richard,
Did you submit the Wikipedia listing yourself?
March 15, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Lee
Everyone: please note that there is quite a bit of controversy over the Abanes Wikipedia listing. It is being criticized as not being neutral, having an inappropriate tone, and using what Wiki calls “weasel words.” Check out the comments.
March 15, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Richard Abanes
Lee,
Feel free to raise any questions. Where is it not neutral? Where is the inappropriate tone? And exactly which weasel words do you see? I’d very interested in seeing some specifics, rather than just a repetitions of vague accusations. Thanks in advance.
Kim,
I’ve contributed to it, making corrections where needed and adding information. It seems to have been compiled from a bunch of information available from all over the internet, some of which reflects my biography found at various publisher sites. To be honest, I am thinking of copying the relevant stuff and just putting up my own biography at my website. People keep going in the wiki article and changing it and adding odd stuff.
Moderators have to keep taking stuff out like “Abanes is an idiot” and stuff like that — kind of amusing, but terrifically childish. People are odd. Mormons come in and add sections that defend Mormonism. People who love Harry potter come in and add material about how I’m nutty regarding Harry Potter, and Rick Warren critics come in and add stuff about Rick Warren that’s inaccurate. It’s a mess, tbh.
March 16, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Lee
Richard,
I merely wanted to point out that there is some controversy regarding the wiki listing. The links provided at the top of the page are there for anyone to check out.
I can understand that you may believe that we blog readers would know that you are actually on staff at Warren’s Saddleback Church; but, I, for one, had no idea. Now that I do know this I must admit that I’ll take your point of view with this in mind. This doesn’t mean that I will disbelieve what you write here (or anywhere else) regarding Rick Warren; but, it does mean that I will question it before reaching a final conclusion.
It’s fair to say that anyone in the public eye — which includes both you and Warren — become targets of the public. It comes with the territory. It would behoove all of us to recognize this and weigh accordingly.
Richard, I would really appreciate your comments on this:
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/1971/Ken_Silva
Specifically, do you believe that Warren has a duty to publicly rebuke Rupert Murdoch? Should Murdoch publicly apologize, confess and repent? Thanks in advance.
March 16, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Richard Abanes
LEE: The links provided at the top of the page are there for anyone to check out.
RA: I’ve looked at those links and can’t see what would be questioned. I’d actually appreciate seeing someone point out a specific example of a “weasel word” or something about the article that is either not neutral or inappropriate. I can’t see anything. I am simply very curious.
—
LEE: I’ll take your point of view with this in mind.
RA: I am not sure, again, how this changes any of the facts I have presented, which can be checked out by anyone. Also, it does not change the logic behind my responses. So, what exactly are you keeping in mind? Will you also be keeping in mind that my work has consistently been reviewed in a positive way by many biblically-based Christian scholars and leaders, and that I have actually won awards for my work in the area of apologetics and defending the Christian faith? I would think that those facts would be relevant to keep in mind, too.
—
LEE: do you believe that Warren has a duty to publicly rebuke Rupert Murdoch? Should Murdoch publicly apologize, confess and repent? Thanks in advance.
RA: I have never talked to Warren about Murdoch. I do not know any specifics about his relationship to Murdoch or whether he is still in contact with Murdoch on an ongoing basis. I simply have no information that is current. I also do not know at all how large corporations like those run by Murdoch work in the business world. I have a feeling it is not like someone who is the manager at a corner grocery store. And for all I know, Warren has indeed spoken to Murdoch privately about such matters and is seeking to bring Murdoch to a place where changes mightbe made across his vast empire. But again, I truly have NO IDEA. This is answering as honestly as possible.
What is fascinating to me, is how people will fixate on Murdoch and whether or not he is behaving appropriately, or whether Warren has an obligation to basically tell him how to run, and how to not run, his business empire — and yet these same people will virtually ignore all manner of false accusations being made against Warren. It’s just odd to me.
March 16, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Kim
It seems Richard has been busy blogging on many other blogs. Here is an article from
http://truediscernment.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/rick-warren-apologist-richard-abanes-going-soft-on-mormonism-is-this-the-direction-rick-warren-is-heading/
Here is a portion……but please read the above article by John Baker…
“Unfortunately what allows men such as Mr. Abanes and Mr. Warren to get away with their “synthesis” is that the historical and Biblical ignorance of the average American Christian is at an all time low. Additionally those who lead Christian Congregations are not equipped; do not care to be equipped to teach their congregations via expository preaching of the Bible or to teach them the historical roots of the current pervasive ideology of Synthesis.
What irritates me about men such as Mr. Abanes is that he dearly wishes that those whom he calls “Heresy Hunters” would just shut up and be dumbed down by drinking the same poisonous koolade he has drunk! What he seems to forget is that his kind who have chosen to dumb themselves down were once the exception and not the rule. It is unfortunate that he cannot see that being “dumbed down” of which he is part is unfortunately now the rule instead of the exception. And it is all because him and others have chosen to “engage” and become part of the world around them, instead of “Being in the World, But not of it”!
Stand Fast!
John Baker”
************
I think it is time for Mr. Abanes to move on….
but thank you, Richard for posting here.
kim
March 16, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Richard Abanes
Kim,
Just FYI, this complete statement by Baker is an out and out lie. My book on MORMONISM refutes every major doctrine of the LDS Church. This is exactly what i am talking about when it comes to so many people who are spreading lies. Mr. Baker lifted one sentence off of one page of my book, and failed to read any of the other 463 pages.
Mormonism is a false religion.
Mormonism stands in contrast to the Bible
Mormonism teaches another Jesus, another Gospel, and another spirit
Look at all of my articles against Mormonism at
http//abanes.com/myarticles.html
I am NOT seeking ANY kind of synthesis between mormonism and Christianity. My gosh, WHY oh WHY areyou so quick to believe the worst, the absolute heretical worst without even bothering to ask — Richard, is this true? As a fellow believer in Christ, I am asking you in the name of our Lord to stop this kind of behavior.
March 16, 2008 at 6:36 pm
John
Mr Abanes,
The article is not an out and out lie. The quotes are direct from your book!
You make the book look as is if it is a book about Mormonism for the edification of an Evangelical BUT it explicitly states that:
“Evangelicals and Mormons can no longer view each other as foes. Neither group can afford to maintain animosity towards the other. Scripture itself declares that “we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. “(Ephesians 6:12). So with full confidence that Mormons and evangelicals can respectfuly discuss the many important matters concerning all of us. I encourage readers of both persuasions to consider this books contents”
This quotation alone smacks of giving legitimacy to Mormons. Tell me Mr Abanes how can anything good come from a Poisoned well? It is common historical knowledge that Mormonisms founding is nothing but a fraudulent sham! Not to mention that joseph Smith was a racist, embezzeler, and fraudster!
Your wording and “methdolology” that is described above is classic Rick Warren: Do not preach repentence to the lost. and perishing Instead sit down with them and see what you have in common with them, dialogue with them. Mormonism is an Anti-Christ Religion. It teaches that God was once a man who attained Godhood. It teaches that we can attain to becoming a God. This type of Anti-Christ religion is satanically inspired and you do not quibble with them. you do not give them place to legitimize ANY of their beliefs!
Secondly you make many false claims on your website and you have also made false claims to me. you claim Rick Warren is a fundamentalist, and as I put in my article it is not enought to claiim that you are a Fundamentalist (one who holds to the five fundamnetals) You must show in your life that you hold true to them under all circumstances. Which Rick Warren does not!
Also Rick Warren counts the Roman Catholic faith as a valid Christian Faith. This again is not the words or “fruit” of a True Fundamentalist!
Your book on Mormonism is nothing more than an extension of Rick Warren’s Apostasy. you speak the language of Christianity but only so you can fly under the radar of the slumbering “christian” masses. While you and Rick Warren work to undermine Biblical Fundamentalism.
Sir if there is anyone who is a liar it is you!
So please tell us. do you believe that Roman Catholicism as taught in the Catholic Cathechism is a valid Christian Faith? After all The Roman Catholic Church say they believe in the five fundamentals. BUT and this is the key, their apostate and idolotrous traditions make the five fundamentals of NONE AFFECT!
So please tell us, your thoughts! The Roman Cahtolic Church is moving towards making Mary a co-redemptrix next to Christ, would this in your opinion definitely show that they are indeed an idolotrous anti-Christ religion?
March 16, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Kim
Hi John…
I have reopened for comment…i had closed it. So if Richard would like to respond he may.
March 16, 2008 at 7:13 pm
John
Mr Abanes said:
I clearly stated: “You can say that another religion has some truth in it, but at the same time not support that religion in total.” I also said: “this has always been a GREAT point of witnessing that I have found when sharing Christ with those of other faiths! We have common ground on which i can relate to them, and then bring them further along by introducing them to Jesus. This is basic evangelism.”
I say:
This is basic evangelism? No it is not, and this is the problem Mr Abanes. you like Rck Warren make declaratory statements the are not based in fact! I am not sure where you pulled this definition of what evangelism is, oh yes right, you pulled it from Rick Warren’s teachings.
And Rick Waren believes “Allah” the “god” of Islam is the one and same God of Christianity. This is nothing more than witnessing via pragmatism. And pragmatism is not found anywhere in God’s Word.
Pragmatism is a creation of fallen sinful man.
March 16, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Lee
Richard,
Perhaps you missed the larger points of my last post above:
1) In recognizing your affiliation with Warren and Saddleback I think it fair to say you might not have a completely balanced view. If I were describing my best friend, for example, you would have reason to suspect that I may not be unbiased.
2) I tried to cut you a bit of slack with my paragraph about those in the public eye being targets of the same public.
I see you totally skirted my questions regarding the Warren / Rupert Murdoch association; so, please allow me to restate:
If we accept the contents of the link I referenced above (@ 12:43PM) — that is, that Warren is Murdoch’s personal pastor — at face value including Warren’s comments here:
“Sin is to be confessed only as widely as it affects others. Private sin requires only private confession to God. Personal sin that involves others requires interpersonal confession to the people involved. Public sins (those that affect a large group of people in our congregation) regrettably must be dealt with publicly as a warning to others.”
then, the sins of Murdoch (ongoing pornography) fall under the ‘larger group of people.’ Is that fair enough? So, then according to Warren’s own words quoted above (which I find very biblical) where is the public rebuke by Warren? This report is from almost a year ago; so, there has been plenty of time. Perhaps given that Zondervan Press (who printed The Purpose Driven Life) is owned by Murdoch causes some type of conflict of interest? At best Warren is setting a bad example.
Richard, given your background as a journalist, certainly you could research this and be able to come back with an informed — and hopefully biblically centered — response.
March 17, 2008 at 6:11 am
tjsmith
I had written this comment three times in the past three days and afterwards deleted it because I felt the timing wa off to mention this.
I have done enough research into many different groups teachings only to find out that what is usually on each groups Statement of Faith page and what is actually taught at the pulpit are two different things.
For instance if you google Statement of faiths and the Mormon church, you will find very little difference in their statement of faith and what Rich Albanes has written that is Rick Warrens and many other “orthodox” Christian churches in America today. But we know that what is taught to their (Mormons) members is far different than what is written.
I personally believe that when you read the statement of Faith of the well known International House of Prayer in KC and what is taught from it’s leaders are two different things.
I know of a pentecostal church in my home town that list the very same things as their statement of faith but some of the things that are taught from this church is contrdictry to those statement of faiths.
This is what is becoming so bothersome to me, what is written is not what is taught and it is a form of deceptiion.
March 17, 2008 at 6:31 am
Richard Abanes
PART ONE
JOHN: The article is not an out and out lie. The quotes are direct from your book!
RA: Dear John, now youa re telling me what I believe? And youa re telling me what the 460+ page book contains in black and white? Sorry, but the article is an absolute, slanderous lie. The SINGLE quote (not quotes) is: “Evangelicals and Mormons can no longer view each other as Foes.” From this isolated sentence the following LIES are built:
________________ LIE #1
>>> “[The book] is in fact nothing more than an attempt to break down the walls that divide Satanic Mormonism from Christianity
THIS IS A LIE – I am making NO attempt to break down the wall that exists, and should exist, between Mormonism and Christianity. In context, this a sentence that refers to meaningless verbal fighting and talking past others in an angry hateful way that renders them and us to not hear each other, thereby short-circuiting successful evangelism. As anyone can see, that sentence is followed by the words: “Neither group can afford to maintain animosity for each other” because Scripture declares that “we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12). Clearly, I am dealing with how we need to interact with Mormons, while keeping a right attitude of love and respect per scripture (see 1 Peter 3:15, 1 Tim. 2;24-25. 2 Tim. 4:2). This is consistent with my approach (see my article on witnessing to Mormons, http://abanes.com/SBTJessay.html ).
The deceptive, lying nature of the article can be seen in the fake image that Mr. Baker (you?) spliced together by taking the top half of p. 9, DELETING 10 pages of text that showed my position, then tagging on the last part of p. 19! The entire introduction was conveniently forgotten by Mr. Baker. Hmmm, why might that be? Perhaps because he would have had to bring up these quotes: “Inside Today’s Mormonism was born of my own discovery that there is indeed a lack of up-to-date, user-friendly material that 1) compares twenty-first century LDS beliefs with calssic Christianity; 2) presents the most recent pro-Mormon arguments [and refutations]; 3) explains why evangelicals CANNOT EXCEPT THESE ARGUMENTS AS VALID” (p. 12).
Mr. Baker would do well to read a book before hunting and pecking for a sentence here or there that can be used to attack someone and slander their name and their work. It is very sad.
________________ LIE #2
>>> [The book] is nothing more than an attempt to . . . bridge the gap and join them together.
THIS IS A LIE – The book actually takes more than 400 pages to show exactly where Mormonism and Christianity stand divided and why/where Mormonism is false.
________________ LIE #3
>>> Mr. Abanes is part of the post-modern group that believe if you “dialogue” with people in such false satanic based religions long enough that you can somehow bridge your differences
THIS IS A LIE – I am seeking to bridge no difference. The book refutes false Mormon teachings in light of biblical truth and gives up-dated responses for Christians seeking to witness to Mormons.
________________ LIE #4
>>> … the end result will be a new truth based on the “best” of both religions, a “New Understanding”
THIS IS A LIE – There can nvere be a “new truth” based on Mormonism and Christianity. Mormonism is false. It was founded by a false prophet, Joseph Smith, who presented false doctrines through extrabiblical writings.
________________ LIE #5
>>> These men somehow think that they need to “perfect” God’s Word, to “clarify” it. And when it is “clarified” through dialogue with false religions then we will all find out that we are all (ALL RELIGIONS) seeking after the same “god”.
THIS IS A LIE – God’s Word is perfect and complete. It is clarified by comparing scripture with scripture in its original languages and according to context. All religions are not seeking or following the same god. That is a New Age teaching. Jesus said that he ALONE is the way, the truth, and the life.
________________ LIE #6
>>> Sadly this is nothing more than Hegelian Dialectic Synthesis. Where two opposing ideologies do not attempt to completely refute each others ideologies but come to a synthesis, or joining of their ideologies the result of which is a new “third way” which combines elements of both ideologies.
THIS IS A LIE – I am interested in no synthesis. As already noted, JESUS ALONE is the way, no one comes to God except through him. There is no third, fourth, or fifth way. Clear enough?
________________ LIE #7
>>> What irritates me about men such as Mr. Abanes is that he dearly wishes that those whom he calls “Heresy Hunters” would just shut up and be dumbed down ….
THIS IS A LIE – What I want is for you and others to simply start telling the truth.
I count seven lies here in a single article — one for every day of the week. Sad. My stand on Mormonism is clear in my two books on the LDS Church and can be seen in the various articles I have written about Mormonism on my web site, under Mormonism at http://abanes.com/myarticles.html .
R. Abanes
March 17, 2008 at 7:13 am
Richard Abanes
PART TWO
JOHN: You make the book look as is if it is a book about Mormonism for the edification of an Evangelical BUT it explicitly states that . . . .
RA: First, as for that SINGLE sentence, see my above statement. Second, my one question to you is: DID YOU ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK? Everyone take note ——- The answer will be no. And Mr. Baker will either answer honestly, which would explain why he has no idea what the book is actually about, or he will try to say something like he doesn’t have to read it to know its poison. That would be unfortunate because there is a lot of information in there that he and many others could use to refute the most current arguments being made by Mormons in defense of their faith.
– – – –
JOHN: This quotation alone smacks of giving legitimacy to Mormons.
RA: That’s your paranoia, friend (see above PART ONE for what that single sentence means). The entire book refutes Mormon doctrines at every turn.
– – – –
JOHN: It is common historical knowledge that Mormonisms founding is nothing but a fraudulent sham! Not to mention that joseph Smith was a racist, embezzeler, and fraudster!
RA: Might I suggest that you read my history of the Mormon Church where I expose all of Smith’s actions including his money digging, occultism, scams, and polygamy — check out ONE NATION UNDER GODS: A HISTORY OF THE MORMON CHURCH at amazon.com. Thank you.
– – – –
JOHN: Your wording and “methdolology” that is described above is classic Rick Warren: Do not preach repentence to the lost.
RA: Hmm. Well, if you want to see Warren talk about repentence, go here: http://abanes.com/repent.html . As for me, here’s something you must have missed on p. 279 of my book (not surprising since you haven’t read it: “[W]e must be saved on God’s terms, not ours. John 4;24 tells us that those who worship God must do so so in spirit and ‘in truth.’ And John 8:32 promises that it will be ‘the truth’ that sets us free. Jesus himself declared: ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14;6). Someone cannot receive salvation through a God or a Christ who does not really exist; in other words, through a God and a Christ whose nature and identity are seriously misunderstood (for example, the LDS notion that Heavenly Father is merely and exalted man).”
– – – –
JOHN: Instead sit down with them and see what you have in common with them, dialogue with them. Mormonism is an Anti-Christ Religion.
RA: Hey John, you would have been very popular in the 12th century. Why not just go get a sword, go to Utah, and tell every Mormon you meet that if they don’t repent, you’ll cut their head off. It worked well enough for the Crusaders against the Muslims and Jews (uhm, you know that I’m really not suggesting that, right?). 😦
– – – –
JOHN: It teaches that God was once a man who attained Godhood. It teaches that we can attain to becoming a God.
RA: Yeah, I know. I wrote two books about it all, remember? Here’s a comparison chart you can use:
http://abanes.com/cb_mb_chart.html . Just out of curiosity, is this chart an example of synthesis to you?
– – – –
JOHN: . . . you claim Rick Warren is a fundamentalist, and as I put in my article it is not enough to claim that you are a Fundamentalist (one who holds to the five fundamentals) You must show in your life that you hold true to them under all circumstances. Which Rick Warren does not!
RA: Rick Warren is indeed a fundamentalist, as am I, when it come sto holding to the fundamentals of biblical Christianity. But we don’t act like hateful, mean-spirited, nasty idiots who are, to be blunt, just plain old rude and unwilling to even talk in a civil manner with other people and listen to what they have to say about things. Hmmmm, I keep thinking about someone…..now who would that be? Hmmmmm…….. 😉
– – – –
JOHN: Your book on Mormonism is nothing more than an extension of Rick Warren’s Apostasy.
RA: Wow. Quite a statement. Too bad its a lie. Again, did you READ the book? It presents the Gospel from A-Z and refutes every major LDS doctrine while doing it. Really, bro, you need to stop and take a moment, check your heart and go to the Lord with this one.
– – – –
JOHN: So please tell us. do you believe that Roman Catholicism as taught in the Catholic Cathechism is a valid Christian Faith? After all The Roman Catholic Church say they believe in the five fundamentals.
RA: First, there are many varying views among Bible believing Christians when it comes to Roman Catholicism. That is a denomination that is unique in its position for a number of reasons. And, I might add, a person’s view of Roman Catholicism is NOT how you measure whether or not they are biblically-sound or walking closely with God. The Bible nowhere says that the mark of a committed, Bible-believing follower of Jesus is how they view Roman Catholicism (which didn’t even exist during the era when scripture was being written).
Now, as for my view, I hold a similar to the views held by a number of conservative, Bible-believing, evangelicals including Ron Rhodes (Reasoning from the Scriptures), Gretchen Passantino-Cobern (Answers In Action), Hank Hanegraaff (Christian Research Institute), and Dr. Norman Geisler, co-author with Ralph Mackenzie of Roman Catholics and Evangelicals (Baker Books, 1995). In this volume, Geisler—who is a well-respected evangelical apologist—discusses the many differences and similarities between Protestants and Roman Catholics. In fact, PART ONE of his book is dedicated to “Areas of Doctrinal Agreement” that lists eight major areas of doctrine that he says evangelicals share with Roman Catholics (120 pages worth). And on top of that, his entire PART THREE is dedicated to “Areas of Practical Cooperation” that includes social action, educational goals, spiritual heritage, and evangelism (see pp. 359-429).
I would probably take a slightly harder stand against Roman Catholicism than Warren, truth be told. I hope to someday do a book dealing with the Roman Catholic Church, going into great detail about why it has so many problems and where the church has contributed greatly to not only the suffering of humanity, but also to the confusion in the world about the true nature of Christianity. But I am not going to go nutty over someone who disagrees with me about it. I suggest you calm down.
– – – –
JOHN: The Roman Catholic Church is moving towards making Mary a co-redemptrix next to Christ, would this in your opinion definitely show that they are indeed an idolotrous anti-Christ religion?
RA: It would be very, very, very unfortunate if they took this step. personally, I am not sure that such a step would ever actually be taken officially. But even so, my personal opinion is that their devotion to Mary is already waaaayyyyy out of step with what is acceptable. And this issue would certainly be one issue that I would address in any volume I would write on Roman Catholicism. Beyond this, I can’t really say too much, because the truth is that I haven’t looked into Roman Catholicism in quite a while and I am sure that there have probably been some changes on this subject over the last several years. I hope this answers your question. Oh, and just a piece of advise — dude, lighten up, go see a movie, take a walk on the beach, spend some time in prayer and ask Christ our Lord to calm your spirit so you can think more clearly and not keep slandering people in your zeal to ….. well, do whatever it is that you’re trying to do. Your actions/response, IMHO, are not god-honoring in the least.
R. Abanes
March 17, 2008 at 7:36 am
Richard Abanes
LEE: 1) In recognizing your affiliation with Warren and Saddleback I think it fair to say you might not have a completely balanced view.
RA: Fair enough. The facts are there for anyone to check.
—–
LEE: 2) I tried to cut you a bit of slack with my paragraph about those in the public eye being targets of the same public.
RA: Yup. Appreciated. TY.
—–
LEE: I see you totally skirted my questions regarding the Warren / Rupert Murdoch association; so, please allow me to restate: If we accept the contents of the link I referenced above (@ 12:43PM) — that is, that Warren is Murdoch’s personal pastor — at face value including Warren’s comments here….Richard, given your background as a journalist, certainly you could research this and be able to come back with an informed — and hopefully biblically centered — response.
RA: Okay, first, I can’t see how Warren is Murdoch’s pastor to begin with. I’ve certainly never seen Murdoch at church. And he’s not a member of Saddleback. So, I am already a bit confused and in the dark when it comes to that statement by Warren. TBH, I have no idea what he’s talking about. He is certainly not using the word “pastor” in any sense that is familiar to me. Second, because he is NOT using that word in any sense familiar to me, I am at a loss as to how to answer your question. I am not skirting the issue. Please understand, I simply don’t know how to answer because I do not know how Warren could even be Murdoch’s pastor if Murdoch does not attend Saddleback, is not a member of his church, and therefore, is not under his authority as a “pastor” of God’s flock. Does that make sense?
Having said that, IF it were under NORMAL circumstances, I would think that a pastor would go to a member of his flock and confront him with his sin. Scripture is very clear about this. And if that person did not cease their immoral activities, then they would be put out of the church and marked as a man/woman who should be avoided and not allowed to come back into the church until repentance has been established.
But, as already noted, there is no church for Murdoch to be put out of. It is not a NORMAL situation as described in the Bible. (And TBH, I have no idea what kind of situation it is.) So, once more, I have no idea how to even answer your specific question. There is no biblical precedent for someone being someone’s “pastor” who is off somewhere else and not even attending that pastor’s church.
Where does Murdoch go to church? Where is his “on-site” pastor, if you will? Ask him why he’s not rebuking Murdoch.
– – – –
LEE: Perhaps given that Zondervan Press (who printed The Purpose Driven Life) is owned by Murdoch causes some type of conflict of interest? At best Warren is setting a bad example.
RA: I have always been a bit uneasy about Christian publishing houses being owned by secular corporations. But that is not a fact of life that we have to live with. There is NOTHING that can be done about it, except for Christians to go independent, which in this day and age, is simply not feasible. As for Murdoch, Zondervan, etc., I truly have no idea who runs what, where, how, etc. in such a convoluted business structure.
I don’t think this was even really an issue until Warren claimed to be Mudoch’s pastor, which TBH, I simply do not understand as a concept (see above). Again, I am not trying to skirt anything, I am just answering as honestly as possible. I don’t understand it it even means when I hear Warren is Murdoch’s pastor. I can only scratch my head, saying, “huh?”
R. Abanes
March 17, 2008 at 8:18 am
John
RA Said:
“In context, this a sentence that refers to meaningless verbal fighting and talking past others in an angry hateful way that renders them and us to not hear each other, thereby short-circuiting successful evangelism.”
I say:
Mr Abanes the point is this, and your statement above which I have quoted spells it out. you like Rick Warren make declarative statements that lead the wider non Christian world down a path that says you agree with a great deal of what they have to say, and this goes along with your statement in what you THINK evangelism is:
“You can say that another religion has some truth in it, but at the same time not support that religion in total.” I also said: “this has always been a GREAT point of witnessing that I have found when sharing Christ with those of other faiths! We have common ground on which i can relate to them, and then bring them further along by introducing them to Jesus. This is basic evangelism.”
What you are doing in your statement about Evangelism and what I quoted from your book is called pragmatism! You are telling the un-saved world that you dont agree with them totally but you dont disagree with them totally. That IS called Synthesis.
If you are using Synthesis to draw them in so to speak then that is just as bad IF NOT WORSE than actually the scenario of actually combining the beliefs of both religions for a new truth. It is called DECEPTION!
But I do not believe what you and Rick Warren are doing is about a “Bait and Switch” tactic. Rick Warren has proven that he is about expanding the beliefs of Christianity to accomodate other non-Christian religions. And I see you never answered th question on whether Roman Catholicism is a valid Christian Faith!
RA Said:
Hey John, you would have been very popular in the 12th century. Why not just go get a sword, go to Utah, and tell every Mormon you meet that if they don’t repent, you’ll cut their head off. It worked well enough for the Crusaders against the Muslims and Jews.
I say:
And your above statement is the classic straw man building of Rick Warren! It says that if you dont dialogue in the manner that Rick Warren does then you are raving lunatic who wants to go FORCE your beliefs on others. And this is an out and out LIE! No one has said anything about forcing any beliefs on anyone. Oh wait a minute, there is one: Rick Warren, as if you are in a Church that is adopting the Purpose Driven Methodology and you oppose it, according to Rick Warren you are to be kicked out of that Church and have your name muddied to other churches! so Mr Abanes you are the one who is peddling falsehoods and lies! your here to paint a picture of Rick Warren and to shut down any valid and Truthful criticism of him!
RA said:
“I have always been a bit uneasy about Christian publishing houses being owned by secular corporations. But that is not a fact of life that we have to live with. There is NOTHING that can be done about it, except for Christians to go independent, which in this day and age, is simply not feasible. As for Murdoch, Zondervan, etc., I truly have no idea who runs what, where, how, etc. in such a convoluted business structure.”
I say:
And once again Mr Abanes you show what is wrong with yours and Rick Warrens ideology! this statement is so crass and lacking in faith that it is unbelievable! There is NOTHING that can be done about the fact that Christians have to rely on a PORN peddler to get their Christian Material?
As I recall from God’s Word WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GO IT ALONE IF WE HAVE TO, TO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO GOD! And to not give the impression of compromise with the fallen world. And funny enough THAT IS HOW THE APOSTLES EVANGELIZED! And it is key to understanding why the power of the Holy Spirit was with them!
Mr Abanes you are a CLASSIC Post-Modernist Blogger! you believe that if you say something on the internet long enough that enough meta tags will be built in Google to reference it and it will drown out the Truth on Internet searches!
But Mr Abanes God always gets his Truth out!
March 17, 2008 at 8:23 am
Lee
tjsmith,
I was going to post the exact same thing you did! And, I was going to use International House of Prayer as an example. I’ve visited a few local churches whose practice seems to belie their statement of beliefs as well. This means, unfortunately, that we look at the practice to line up with the statement of beliefs. If these do not agree, then it’s time to find another church.
March 17, 2008 at 8:49 am
Richard Abanes
JOHN: …. you like Rick Warren make declarative statements that lead the wider non Christian world down a path that says you agree with a great deal of what they have to say,
RA: My goodness, man, what are you talking about. I have just showed you where you have lied seven times about my book, it’s contents,a nd me — and this is all you can come back with? How about. “Gee, Richard, sorry.” I have made no such declarative statements. YOU, sir, lifted a single sentence out of context — OUT OF CONTEXT — and perverted it so as to make it sound as if it were saying something it was not saying. That is not my problem. That is your problem. Might I say, that is your sin.
—–
JOHN: What you are doing in your statement about Evangelism and what I quoted from your book is called pragmatism!
RA: I hate to say this, but you’re not even dealing in reality. There is nothing pragmatic about my words. I am talking about being a godly representative, meeting people where they are, understanding where we agree and where we disagree, and based on that understanding, giving them the gospel of Jesus Christ and demonstrating in love where their views are unbiblical. That is not pragmatism, that is evangelism. But feel from to just where a signboard that says “MORMONS ARE SATANIC” coupled with “JOHN 3:16” and stand on a street corner if you think that is biblical evangelism. Good luck.
—-
JOHN: You are telling the un-saved world that you don’t agree with them totally but you don’t disagree with them totally.
RA: Sad. So sad. Mormons believe abortion is wrong. So do I. That, my friend, is not synthesis. You don’t even know the meaning of the word.
—-
JOHN: And I see you never answered th question on whether Roman Catholicism is a valid Christian Faith!
RA: That’s because you’re not reading to see truth.
—-
JOHN: Mr Abanes you are a CLASSIC Post-Modernist Blogger!
RA: lol. Uhm, I am not post-modern. Here: THERE IS INDEED ABSOLUTE TRUTH AND IT CAN BE KNOWN AND EITHER ACCEPTED OR REJECTED. You can quote me here accurately, but why do I have this feeling you won’t bother to do so. John, here is a word you should know: REPENT! I look forward to an apology about the seven lies contained in your article about my book and me.
—-
JOHN: But Mr Abanes God always gets his Truth out!
RA: Indeed, John. Indeed.