There are many who are very intrigued with the mysticism that has been entering the church. I have heard it said, I need and desire the mystical side of faith. Where does it say in the Bible that we are to understand the mysteries of God and the universe? Why is it that some need to go outside scripture to “get the feeling”, or to have an “experience”? There is a good reason…It is difficult to create a euphoric bliss, a new ministry, or create a new following on revelation of the scripture alone. Therefore, we have a “new gospel”, for those who do not get enough sensations or feeling from reading the Bible or worshiping God in a traditional manner.
A social gospel is being taught, and this gospel promotes a god of love and prosperity. The problem is…….without truly following Christ by repenting, and picking up a cross daily, your spiritual life will be void of any true regeneration.
I watched a special on GODTV last New Years Eve’s featuring Mike Bickle at IHOP. He was teaching young people at a huge conference. It hit me while watching that he was just all talk and had absolutely no substance. Over and over again he was telling these young people to Live For the Lord and to be Holy, Holy, Holy. But he did not give any scripture. Without scripture and the Holy Spirit, these young boys and girls were doomed to fail. When people fail in love, have no control over sin in their life, and have not the joy in times of trouble…..they become discouraged and may turn away from the Lord. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can be holy. We have no righteousness of our own.
These are the ones who may need to reach out into an unknown mystical world for a spiritual “fix”. Gnosticism provides this spiritual fix.
First, let’s take a look at early Gnosticism. It was introduced into the first two centuries of the church and taught that the spirit was good and matter was evil. Therefore, to be saved was to be freed from the body which was deemed evil. To be freed from this slavery, one needed the special “knowledge” (gnosis). This eliminated the need for the cross and a savior. Today, much of this can be seen today…Man’s salvation is not by faith in God but rather, in the special, mystical knowledge than one can learn by experience. This experience or enlightenment is a key word in New Age religion.
This heresy flourished in the 2nd and 3rd century and the gnostics claimed to still be Christians. Please read this paragraph from a gnostic site that has a definition of Gnostic Christianity.
“A Gnostic is a person who believes that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge or gnosis..When gnostics speak of salvation, they mean being freed from these illusions of darkness so that they can perceive Reality. Gnostic Christians have commenced following a Path of never ending increase in Knowledge, Enlightenment, Power, Peace, and every Divine Attribute. They are led along this Path by those disciples who have preceded them, a chain of initiates going back to Jesus himself.”
A spiritual fix…..What is it in the above sentence that may appeal to someone looking for spirituality? Divine Knowledge perhaps? Who doesn’t want to be in on a secret…Who doesn’t want to be part of an elite group…Is it Power? Hasn’t power corrupted men over and over again. To be powerful is to be over and above others. To be in charge or at the “Head of the Table” Ah, Divine….Divinity is self-consciousness, to find the Divine Spark within himself. Godhood. One can attain a spiritual fix by experiencing an emotional outpouring or is it “in-pouring”, of supposedly godly manifestations.
Also I was interested to find out what the Path was. Here is what I found:
The Mystic Christ
by Ethan Walker IIIThe light of non-duality and the path of love according to the life and teachings of Jesus. The Gnostic path is the inner path to God-realization. Buddha, Krishna, Jesus and the other great Masters are all one and in essence taught the same thing.
Meditation is the means by which the individual may achieve direct union with God. In order to attain this gnosis, one must first fully understand the mind. All through our lives, we have grown accustomed to indirect experiences.
See how Jesus Christ is grouped with Buddha and Krishna? Jesus Christ is the Son of God and here He is reduced to a great master. Another heresy is that they “taught the same thing”? Unfortunately, Gnostic trends were never totally eliminated and have always been filtering into the church and of late have exploded and taken a stronghold. Meditation is added to assure that one can reach God directly. What happened to prayer?
Have you heard any of these phrases lately?
LatterRain, Overcomers, Manifest Sons of God, Universal Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, A New Breed, The Anointed, The New Prophets, New Order, A Harvets of a Billion Souls, A New Thing, or Spiritual Warfare. This is but a thimble in a pool of phrases. Lingo is created in certain ministries to numb the mind of the believer. When jargon is heard over and over again, one ceases to question it. This is a huge issue in these end times, because the Bible teaches of end-time deception and if you do not know the Word of God, and study it in context, relying on the KJV, you may be easily deceived.
Most of these phrases come out of the LatterRain influence, and out of LatterRain we have Word-of-Faith, The New Apostolic Reformation, and Dominionism. Because we hear and read these phrases that are being used readily today, we know that Gnosticism is alive and well and is currently at work destroying the true Christian faith. If you hear these or similar phrases in your church then you need to do some research.
So Gnosticism has many names. From it flows the Rosicrucian Order and from it Freemasonry. All is a basis for New Age thought and religion. I know that many cringe at the thought that some churches today may truly be involved in New Age religion, but sadly it is so. Theosophy’s main goal was to infiltrate the church with Eastern mysticism and this is being accomplished.
According to Theosophist Alice Bailey, (she was a channeler) the Church is being used as merely a part of an overall plan to bring in world peace, world domination and to set up the “Kingdom on Earth”. This kingdom is not a godly kingdom. This kingdom belongs to Satan.
2Ti 3:1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.
2Ti 3:2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
2Ti 3:4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God–
2Ti 3:5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
So if you are falling into the trap of Warrens Peace Plan, Wagner’s Apostolic Reformation, or IHOP’s Joel’s Army, you are furthering the plans of the “enlightened” ones. Is this what you are doing? If so, then you are not following Jesus Christ. He told us in the Beatitudes to: Mourn over our sinful nature, to be meek, to hunger and thirst for righteousness, and that we will be persecuted because of Him. Can this be any more opposite than the Gnostic gospel of self-deity?
So if you are in need of a spiritual “fix”. Get down on your knees, confess your sin, repent and turn away from sin.
DiscernIt 
77 comments
Comments feed for this article
November 4, 2007 at 6:32 am
arm5
Great post! A lot.of people are easily decieved because they expect to have their ears tickled and only receive a half gospel.As a nation we really have walked away from our first love.
November 4, 2007 at 11:19 am
John Burton
Kim, please be much more careful. This is what I was referring to in my previous posts. You are making dangerous assumptions that are terribly inaccurate. To call people non-Christians based on less than factual information is reckless. It’s arrogant. What good do you see coming out of this? Many Christians do appreciate a variety of Christian ministers that you don’t prefer. That’s really ok.
Remember- we can disagree on the non-absolutes of scripture and still be unified. Your approach without question brings division within the camp. It’s unscriptural.
You mentioned that Mike Bickle doesn’t use scripture. That is an uneducated and irresponsible statement. It’s unfair to Mike and I’d say you owe him an apology. There are few teachers I know who dive into scripture more than Mike Bickle. He continually calls those at IHOP to read and study 10 or so chapters a day. In his teaching he goes very deep into scripture on a continual basis. Your disagreement was that he was calling people into a holy life? That’s absurd!
You ended your post doing the very same thing!
“So if you are in need of a spiritual “fix”. Get down on your knees, confess your sin, repent and turn away from sin.”
Where’s the scripture to support this?
You’re really doing a disservice to the Christians out there. This trend toward attacking Christian ministers who tend to flow differently than we do is so very unsettling.
Should we identify non-Christian cults? Sure. Those who violate the absolutes of scripture? Yes. Let’s focus on that why don’t we.
November 4, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Mary
John,
Many christians would disagree with you on Mike Bickle’s interpretations of scripture. I would encourage you to click on sign of jonah blog under blog roll as their blog has done an extensive critique on ihop’s teachings.
November 4, 2007 at 8:59 pm
John Burton
That’s exactly my point. It’s absolutely ok to disagree. The problem is when we shout that out and cause disunity because of those disagreements. We need to be supporting one another as brothers and sisters, not ripping each other apart.
Christians will always have different paradigms… that’s a part of life and it’s really ok. The point is that we are all Christians… we all love Jesus and we should stand arm in arm.
If someone violates classic absolutes of scripture, then that’s a different issue altogether. Simply, if someone is a Christian, we are to cover, love and serve alongside him or her whether we personally agree with some of their perspectives or not.
November 4, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Jordan Stratford
Respectfully, your condemnation of Gnosticism seems ill-informed and based on outdated scholarship. It certainly does not seem to come from a loving place of the Holy Spirit. I must also take exception to your assertion that scripture is the be-all-and-end-all of the historic faith, a concept totally alien to 3/4ths of Christians throughout history.
Right now, Gnostics are being slaughtered in Iraq, due to exactly the kind of bigotry seen here. However, in Iraq, it is the Christian community which is sheltering Gnostic families – not setting up witch hunts to drive them out of the Church.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_536229.html
Gnostics have walked alongside Christians from the beginning. Silent prayer has never *not* been an integral part of Christian tradition. Gnosis is not “secret” knowledge, it is a direct, intimate relationship with Mystery and our place in it. You may have no vocation to this path, and G@d may have other plans for you. But it is not exactly charitable to first vilify an ancient and authentic path, and then to associate your “enemies” with a charicature of that path.
I applaud your commenters’ reason and compassion.
November 4, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Kim
Hey John,
The Gnostic agrees with you…
November 4, 2007 at 11:57 pm
Jeff
Thank you for your insight.
However, you left out one key component. The early Gnostics, were put to death, in the era of Constantine, for not naming their God. Thus they were practicing Christianity, as Christ did. Willing to sacrifice themselves, for the teaching.
Careful study of the Bible, old and new testaments, lead to more knowledge, and away from idolatry.
Ask yourself this did Christ want people to follow him in a hollow way? Or manifest his works, through themselves? In short is the phrase KNOW THYSELF, a hint at Gnostic teaching?
What is confusing is that to know and be awake is freedom. To manifest a fearless love in our lives is Christ like. What is most important is how we live, not who or what we worship. Surrendering to God’s divine Love is all that matters, for you are then manifesting the Father, Holy Spirit and the Son or the Christ in your daily life.
November 5, 2007 at 12:57 am
Anonymous
According to Jordan…
1) Gnosticism is not a heretical sect of Christianity
Gnosticism is a distinct, pre-Christian religion. Its roots are in Alexandria in Egypt, about 2200 years ago, where a “café-society” of Greek-speaking and -educated Jews were syncretizing the myths of the ancient world with Judaism and classical Greek philosophy.
These communities and their ideas greatly influenced Christianity as it later emerged. As Christianity struggled in its first four centuries to distinguish itself from the pagan world, it slowly began to reject some of these Gnostic influences. But most of the people who still favoured these ideas considered themselves devout Christians, not heretics.
Let us not forget that the most common topic in the New Testament – more common than the power of love or redemption or the sacrfice of the cross or even the divinity of Jesus – is that “other Christians are getting it wrong”. Paul condemns James as a heretic. Jesus refers to Peter as “Satan”.
2) Gnosticism is a lot like Buddhism
Because of Gnosticism’s insistence on personal responsibility and ethics, its emphasis on singular prayer, the practice of compassion, detachment from materialism and the striving for enlightenment, it has been called “the Buddhism of the West”. The similarities between Gnosticism and Mahayana Buddhism are so strong it has been speculated that there may have been ongoing contact between the two religions.
3) The Gnostic Scriptures are, for the most part, contemporary with Christian canon
None of the four canonical Gospels were written in the first century. Mark was not written by Mark, nor Luke written by Luke. John was written in two distinct phases, the first of which showed significant Gnostic elements, and the latter a retraction and condemnation of those elements. These were based on first century oral traditions which varied greatly from region to region, but did not exist in written form until at least 100 years after the events they describe. Paul is the only first century Christian writer we have, and much of his writings were edited centuries later into the form we have today.
The Gospel of Thomas, for example, is contemporary with the later half of John, and there is some evidence to support that John’s later editors were familiar with Thomas. The scriptural authors of the second century were reaching for meaning, using their interpretation what they had heard, their intuition, their creativity, and their yearning for G@d.
4) Gnostics do not hate the physical world
Gnostic scripture frequently invokes favourably the beauty and power of the natural world; the symbolism of pregnancy, midwifery, childbirth, newborns, storms and ripe crops are frequently employed by Gnostic authors. Gnostics do not view the flesh as evil, but rather as temporary when contrasted with the immortality of the soul – a view shared by most if not all Christians.
What Gnostics reject is not the earth, but they system: the artificial world of injustice, prejudice, institutionalization and materialism.
5) Gnostics do not repudiate salvation through Grace
The role of Grace, and of the Holy Spirit, is of paramount importance to the Gnostics. Where Gnosticism differs from Christianity is that Gnosticism says that “blind faith” does not grant salvation. To be saved from the forces of deception and ignorance (maya in Buddhist parlance) one must attain enlightenment: the direct experiential intimacy with G@d that is gnosis. This experience is the birthright of every aware human person.
6) Gnosticism is not elitist
Do Christians distinguish between the saved and the unsaved? Is this elitism? Gnostic teachings frequently reinforce the idea that liberation via gnosis is available to everyone; that such distinction is a matter of reclaiming birthright, of intent, choice, and effort. In fact, Gnostic theology tends to support the idea of apokatastasis, of universal salvation.
7) Gnosticism is not Utopian.
There is nothing in Gnostic scripture to support the idea that Gnostics wish to make “heaven on earth” from human efforts, and no connection whatsoever between Gnosticism and the reshaping of society; neither from fascism nor socialism. There is no “immanentizing the eschaton” in Gnosticism: Rather, this idea is the hallmark of millennialist Christianity.
8) Most basic tenets of Gnosticism are supported by Christian scripture
In fact there is a litany of Christian saints who are blatantly Gnostic; St. Francis of Assisi, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Hildegard of Bingen and St. Joan of Arc all described in detail the integrity of their experience of gnosis.
Paul says “The Kingdom of G@d is within you” which is probably the best single summation of Gnostic theology. Jesus says “My kingdom is not of this world” (Jn 18:36).
9) Gnosticism serves as a bridge between world religions
Gnosticism stands at the crossroads of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, representing a common ground. Historically Gnosticism influenced Judaism in the development of Kabala, and Islam in the development of Sufism; it both encouraged and challenged Christianity through its early centuries and contributed profoundly to Christian theology and identity.
10) Gnostic churches are thriving
Gnostics across North America and Europe gather weekly for prayer and Eucharist in forms very similar to orthodox liturgy. We derive inspiration from the Old and New Testaments, and also from Nag Hammadi scripture such as The Gospel of Thomas and The Thunder: Perfect Mind. A vital and growing Gnostic ekklesia is serving in charities, missions and hospitals; writing, crafting, debating and working in coffeehouses and dozens of parishes around the world. Most Gnostics consider themselves Christian, their churches constituting the Body of Christ. Other Gnostics gravitate to the symbolism and traditions of the Divine Feminine in her aspect as Sophia (“wisdom”), the Shekhina (“presence”), and the Holy Spirit.
—————————————————
http://egina.blogspot.com/2006/04/10-things-religious-pundits-need-to.html
But they are missing the very basic component of Christianity. Jesus Christ died for our sins. I think this is a good article that explains what the Gospel is and what it is not.
http://www.aoreport.com/mag/pdf/What%20Is%20The%20Gospel.pdf Gnosticism is just another “religion” out there pulling things together for the antichrist and his one world religion.
November 5, 2007 at 1:19 am
Lee
Kim,
Good post. I’m glad you pulled all these various groups/teachings together because their aim is to have seemingly disconnected groups look like they are not part of a connected whole although, in fact, all are very well connected. That is the genius of Theosophy/new age.
These groups even redefine the basic tenets of our faith to seem as though they are in agreement with Christianity. The best lie is a partial truth.
When jargon is heard over and over again, one ceases to question it.
Exactly! This is precisely the aim. Very astute observation.
This is a huge issue in these end times, because the Bible teaches of end-time deception and if you do not know the Word of God, and study it in context, relying on the KJV, you may be easily deceived.
I’m continually amazed that so few, especially in our pulpits, are even mentioning all the verses which warn of false teachings and apostasy. While I don’t use the KJV, I do refer back to original Greek and various Christian websites and read commentary to gain perspective.
November 5, 2007 at 3:50 am
Mary
Anonomous,
“All scripture is God breathed and profitable for teaching,reproof,correction, and training in righteousness. 2Tim. 3:16
Sorry but you don’t have any truth to stand on.
November 5, 2007 at 4:25 am
Anonymous
Mary you didn’t read my post correctly. I am quoting right off of Jordanthe gnostic’s webpage and give the url. My part was “But they are missing the very basic component of Christianity. Jesus Christ died for our sins. I think this is a good article that explains what the Gospel is and what it is not.
http://www.aoreport.com/mag/pdf/What%20Is%20The%20Gospel.pdf Gnosticism is just another “religion” out there pulling things together for the antichrist and his one world religion.” You have to read the whole thing, not just parts.
November 5, 2007 at 4:36 am
John Burton
The disappointment is that people so quickly disfellowship other legitimate Christians because of differing paradigms. It’s hurtful, slanderous and presumptuous.
What’s even more disappointing is when people set themselves up to do this as a primary focus of their lives. They search around and try to find the next minister who they disagree with so as to publicly attack and wound them.
Again, by all means be prepared to lovingly caution people against non-Christians who are attempting to draw people away.
But, when it comes to legitimate Christians who simply interpret biblical non-absolutes differently than you do- leave it alone. Who’s to say you’re not wrong?
November 5, 2007 at 4:59 am
Sophia Sadek
Gee, from what I’ve seen of sacred literature, there is no such thing as an absolute in the Bible. Certainly, I’ve encountered many attatudes towards sacred texts that try to interpret it absolutely. On the other hand, such approaches to literature do a disservice to both the literature and the interpreter.
November 5, 2007 at 6:01 am
Lee
John,
I’ve looked at your website. I saw your recent post regarding a “word” by Kim Clement. Clement is very definitely a false prophet. He is one of the people the bible warns of. In fact, I believe all on the Elijah List are false prophets.
The first question that needs to be answered is just what is NT prophet? Here’s some scripture:
Hebrews 1:1-2, “1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.”
With the finished work of Jesus on the cross and the closing of the canon there is no longer a need for a prophet to foretell future events. Otherwise, these supposed “prophesies” of the E-List should be appended to scripture if they are indeed for the corporate church.
However, prophesy can come in the form of “strengthening, encouragement and comfort” according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:3.
This is my way of asking you to search the scriptures for yourself to see if these teachers/prophets, etc. are really lining up with biblical standards. This blog is an attempt to publicly make people aware of public ministries which are questionable; and I applaud Kim in her efforts. Please read your Bible and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.
2 Timothy 4:3-4, “3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
1 Timothy 4:1-2, “1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.”
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, “9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
1 Timothy 6:3-5, 10, “3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain…”
“10…For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”
November 5, 2007 at 6:08 am
Lee
John,
Jesus warned of “wolves in sheeps clothing.” Obviously, these are people within Christendom who purport to be Christians outwardly yet are leading the unsuspecting astray. It behooves all of us to be discerning.
November 5, 2007 at 6:20 am
Lee
John,
I found the link I had been looking for to back up my claim that these various movements (all Gnostic) have redefined basic tenets of our faith. Scroll down and start with “The Deity of Christ:”
http://www.harvestnet.org/revref/kingdom3.htm
This makes it especially difficult to ascertain just who is a true Christian! While one may say they believe in the virgin birth it may as defined by the Theosophists in the above link. If that is one’s belief then that person is definitely not my brother or sister in Christ!
This is why it’s so important to really study all the teachings of a particular individual or school and not just rely on the “tenets of faith.”
November 5, 2007 at 6:27 am
Kim
I pulled out a book from Dave Hunt:
The Seduction of Christianity Spiritual Discernment in the Last Days
“It is a tragedy of our time that the average Christian is either too easily persuaded or cannot be persuaded at all. Too few seem willing to take the time to think the issues through and check the Scriptures for themselves. Those who would escape the following seduction must get back to the Bible and know what they believe and why, rather than succumbing to the temptation of accepting facile answers provided by “experts”. During the prophesied apostasy, even church leaders will be lead astray (Matthew 7:22,23 Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name?) and those who follow their teachings will suffer the same tragedy” p. 8
I looked up this verse found in the OT.
1Ch 16:22 Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Isn’t the Lord speaking of Israel and the Patriarchs here? Maybe i am mistaken….
Anyway we must contend for the faith and warn of false prophets. Here is backing scripture.
2 Peter 2:1 There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.
Acts 20:29 For i know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter among you not sparing the flock.
Jeremiah 23:20-21 In the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran; I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied..
Ezekiel 13:3 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets…that prophesy out of their own hearts..
The Bible predicts apostasy in the end times. It is knowing and SEEING this happening in our own time and in our own towns, that burdens the hearts of those, like me, who feel called to warn others.
There is a tremendous amount of false teaching out there. Please pray for discernment from the Lord. Read scripture with a prayer that His words will bring truth. I agree with Lee that Kim Clement is a false prophet as well as all who prophesy on Elijah List.
November 5, 2007 at 6:50 am
Mary
Anonymous,
A big oopps. Sorry about that. Yeah, I messed that up for sure.
A good read is an article by Art Katz called “The Spirit OF Truth”
It has nothing to do with gnosticism, but he really helps in explaining
what it means to walk in truth. John, I think you might like it if you have never read it before. Just google Art Katz it’s an online free book.
Take Care everyone.
November 5, 2007 at 8:38 am
John Burton
This topic of exposing false prophets and those who are questionable is a very touchy one. It’s very hard to accurately discern whether someone is demonicly driven (intentionally trying to lead people away from Jesus) or simply making an honest mistake.
For example, there’s a difference between false prophecy and poor prophecy. Fallible man can make mistakes. This doesn’t make them a false prophet… but it can qualify as poor prophecy.
Additionally, the issue of prophecy goes much deeper than “did the prophecy come true or not”. We must address questions of why, of timing, of perspective, etc.
To make the giant leap of calling people enemies of Christ because of lack of full understanding is very irresponsible.
My guess is (and I admit I may be wrong myself) that most emphasis from the Charismatic movement is deemed in error by some on this list. If this is the case, you are saying that a massive number of God loving people are actually enemies of God.
Let me say it like this- I’m a Christian who loves God so much. I am passionate, hungry for more of God… I am broken over the lost. God loves me very, very much. I’m human. I’m weak. I’ve made mistakes. I’ll make lots more. I prophesy, have spiritual dreams and see visions… I’ve seen absolutely dramatic prophetic words come true… and I’m certain I’ve missed it from time to time.
The point? There are a lot of people like me out there that deeply love God as well… and I’m concerned that you may be missing that… and unwittingly attempting to disqualify people like us from enjoying a legitimate love affair with Jesus.
November 5, 2007 at 9:01 am
Lee
John,
I love Jesus; but, I will never have a “love affair” with Him. Obviously, you subscribe to Mike Bickle’s “Bridal Paradigm.” Such language is offensive to me. I, in fact, do not plan on having a “love affair” with anyone. I may love someone or be in love with someone; but, the term “love affair” is toooo secular for me.
I disagree with your assessment of “poor prophecy.” Since prophecy is listed as one of the gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, it is given by the Spirit, and He “gives just as He determines.” This gift then, should manifest itself perfectly because our Triune God is perfect.
My guess is (and I admit I may be wrong myself) that most emphasis from the Charismatic movement is deemed in error by some on this list. If this is the case, you are saying that a massive number of God loving people are actually enemies of God.
I see a lot of error in the Charismatic wing; but, I won’t make the leap and say that all those following these errors as I see them are “enemies of God.” That’s a judgment I just won’t make. How do I know which ones are deceived and which one’s are the deceivers?
However, God’s own words, as I pointed out above say that a “strong delusion” will be on those who reject the Truth.
November 5, 2007 at 9:28 am
Kim
Ezek. 13:6 “They see falsehood and lying divination who are saying, ‘The Lord declares,’ when the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope for the fulfillment of their word. “Did you not see a false vision and speak a lying divination when you said, ‘The Lord declares,’ but it is not I who have spoken?” ‘“Therefore, thus says the Lord God, “Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you,” declares the Lord God.”
Deut. 13:3-5 “you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”
A true prophet of God has to be correct 100% of the time. If not, the Lord has not sent him. God declares He is against him…..
I have been tested myself…The Lord tested me to find out how much i loved Him. This went on for two years. This is why i have studied, prayed, researched, prayed, and then prayed some more. I prayed for the truth, i found it in the Word of God. I study the Word daily. I hope He continues to test me so that i can truly serve Him. I have to stand before God someday…
This next verse is extremely important to me.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
November 5, 2007 at 9:29 am
John Burton
Lee, I’d encourage you to attempt to avoid being put off so easily. To make an issue of a term that means something to one person, and possibly something different to you, just doesn’t make sense. If you knew what that statement meant to me, you’d understand more clearly. What I mean is this- I am deeply in love with Jesus.
You are simply wrong with the issue of prophecy. God is perfect, man is not. Man very often is immature with prophetic words… some assume, due to their immaturity, that they are to expound on the word in order to clarify it. Well, that’s a simple mistake, not evidence of an evil heart.
Additionally, someone may make the mistake of sharing a word prematurely. Or, with the wrong emphasis. Others share the word in such a way that people assume that it will be fulfilled in a short amount of time, when actually the fulfillment is many decades away.
I would counsel you to not get so uptight about prophecy. If a word is false, then respond within your own heart in an appropriate way. Pray for the giver of the word. Love him or her with your actions. Then just move on. Don’t be afraid of the prophecy. If a prophetic word is clearly leading someone to disobey scripture, then certainly take a stand.
Lastly, here’s something that concerns me with threads like this. You said:
“I see a lot of error in the Charismatic wing…”
I have a problem with that statement. It would be much better, and more humble, to say something like:
“I don’t claim to know everything, but my own opinion on a certain matter is such and such… this scripture says this regarding the issue… I admit I may not be interpreting it the way they are, and I admit I may be wrong… but it’s an issue that’s on the table for me and I have honest concern about it.”
You really invalidate your authority when you elevate yourself to the final authority on an honestly debatable non-absolute of scripture.
I’m not picking on you personally by any means… many embrace your world view and ministry strategy… I just have a serious problem with it. It’s counterproductive to effective ministry.
Nothing wrong with boldly sharing opinion… but be humble enough to admit that it’s your own opinion… even if it’s based on your best effort to interpret scripture with integrity.
November 5, 2007 at 9:34 am
John Burton
Kim, you couldn’t be more wrong. I honor your desire to study the Word… that’s a non-negotiable element for all of us.
However, what you are saying will devastate many. If someone prophesies, and gets it wrong even one time, you are declaring that God is against that person. How terrible. Do you have the guts to tell a newly saved 15 year old that God is against them if the prophesy incorrectly? Would you call them a false prophet?
Do you realize how your position can devastate someone? Your theology would lead them to believe that God hates them and they are destined for hell. You must cease this train of thought… it’s tragically deadly to many.
November 5, 2007 at 9:36 am
Kim
What do you mean my position? I was quoting scripture…
November 5, 2007 at 9:59 am
John Burton
You are missing the point of those passages of scripture by a wide margin. In Ezekiel, that passage is taking about false prophecy. Those false prophets were easily uncovered because of their embracing of pagan divination.
Additionally, the Bible states clearly that they have followed their own spirits and have actually seen nothing. They made it up. It came out of their own heart and selfish ambition. They are intentionally speaking lies.
This is much, MUCH different than honestly doing our best to hear the word of the Lord and then restating it a bit incorrectly.
The Bible tells us to pray for increased revelation and understanding. It’s an acquired God given skill that must be nurtured and developed.
Deut 13 is an excellent passage of scripture for us. It very clearly tells us that it will be quite evident when a prophet is false. They will tell us to follow other gods. If someone were to tell us to defy scripture and to follow another God, it’s an easy and clear indication that they are prophesying falsely. In fact, that passage also tells us that we must hear God’s voice (prophecy) and respond.
I know Kim Clement isn’t liked around here, but his instruction couldn’t be more accurate. Note his correct insight regarding the Word of God- if it’s unscriptural, it’s not of God. That’s our litmus test:
Even though we, as spiritual leaders, are aware of the dangers of anyone just simply “hearing” a voice and then claiming that it’s God, it is equally as dangerous to forbid God’s people from telling what they heard.
Who are we to be the ones to decide what is God and what is not, unless it is entirely unscriptural and outside of the revealed character of God?
November 5, 2007 at 10:10 am
Lee
John,
Let me state my main concern with the Charismatic wing. To put it the best way I can: many “worship” the Holy Spirit. In reading John 14:15 – 16:16 we find the function of the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ words.
1) He will testify about Jesus
2) He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin
3) He will guide you into all (biblical) truth (by reading the Word)
When God wishes to “speak” to us, He uses the Holy Spirit. We worship God by — as Jesus said — obeying His commands. We pray to God with Jesus as our intercessor. The Holy Spirit is not to be “experienced.”
I was at a group in which people were manifesting “in the spirit.” I was prophesied over by a man speaking “the very words of God” in real time. These were NOT the Holy Spirit. There is no biblical precedence for either of these incidences as I witnessed them. The “prophecy” was so general and vague that it could have applied to most anyone. In addition, the teacher gave a false definition of a word out of scripture in the subsequent teaching that evening. Now, why would anyone give a “teaching” and purposely give a false definition of a word? (I found it easily enough in 2 references.) I can’t speak for his motive; but, when I questioned it later (and some of the other “teachings” my then-friend was telling me of) I was told to cease all communication with this now used-to-be friend. This has the earmarks of a cult.
If something is not scriptural, then it is error. I believe in calling a spade a spade, especially when it has to do with the Word of our Lord which I hold very dear!
The whole Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army/Latter Rain that Mike Bickle supports is clearly error and serves Bickle’s own purposes of which I can only surmise.
November 5, 2007 at 10:10 am
Kim
No John, i understand that false prophecy can be a product of divination or from the imagination..Nothing much has changed in all these years…….
That is why we are to rely on Gods Word in the Bible. There is no instance in the Bible where a prophet is nurtured and/or developed.
November 5, 2007 at 10:16 am
Lee
There is no instance in the Bible where a prophet is nurtured and/or developed.
Exactly.
November 5, 2007 at 10:27 am
John Burton
Again, there’s a problem with a statement:
“The whole Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army/Latter Rain that Mike Bickle supports is clearly error and serves Bickle’s own purposes of which I can only surmise.”
First of all, you are covering a ton of theological insights with a single statement. Secondly, you state that they are ‘clearly’ error.
That’s an irresponsible way to handle that. I am fully devoted to adhering to the Word of God. I in no way would ever desire to embrace something that’s an error. No way. So, the error is not so clear. In fact, there may be no error at all… or there may be errors on lower levels not worth dividing over. The same could be said of most any stream of Christianity.
November 5, 2007 at 10:31 am
John Burton
Also, keep in mind that there are differences between the office of prophet, and the gift of prophecy. We are all to desire the gift of prophecy. That doesn’t make us all prophets. God speaks spiritually, supernaturally most of the time. That means we have to learn how to walk in the Spirit… how to discern dreams and visions, etc.
Some have more ease gaining revelation and understanding than others. It’s possible to have limited understanding, which means we, as Paul declared, should desire more.
Regarding worshiping the Holy Spirit- He is God. He is to be worshiped. Just as Jesus and the Father is. The Holy Spirit, when he manifests in power, is certainly experienced. We see Paul experiencing God dramatically… the upper room ‘experience’, John fell over as dead, etc.
November 5, 2007 at 11:12 am
Kim
http://www.harvestnet.org/revref/kingdom3.htm
This article from an earlier comment is a great read on Dominionism. I have it printed out somewhere and filed in one of the hundred or so folders i have of discernment articles and research.
Anyone wanting to learn more about Dominionism cannot go wrong by studying this writing by Al Dager. He teaches against the Kingdom Now theology.
Dominionism is found in all of the teachings mentioned earlier and quoted below.
“The whole Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army/Latter Rain that Mike Bickle supports is clearly error.”
November 5, 2007 at 11:15 am
John Burton
Again, you all tend to side step a very basic question:
Does presumed error always demand disfellowshipping? Am I to assume that I’m not recognized as your brother in the Lord?
And, is it possible you are wrong? Is it possible that others have differing theological views?
November 5, 2007 at 11:23 am
Kim
Yes, i believe you are my brother in the Lord…but i am worried that you may have slipped into deception.
Do you consider me a sister?
November 5, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Lee
John,
It really comes down to this: does it really matter what I think? It matters what God thinks (knows — He is omniscient).
I’ve not said anything at all about disfellowshipping. For example, the strict Church of Christ belief is that “worship,” should only be led by one individual (a man and NOT a woman) with the congregation singing along. No instruments are allowed because the NT speaks nothing specifically about instrumental accompaniment at all. In general, this denomination believes that they are to do ONLY what is specifically in the NT, no more, no less. I believe this is faulty thinking; but, I would never divide on this.
To put in a nutshell the three “teachings” I referenced earlier:
1) Latter Rain:
This theology is based on an obviously false belief that all will prophesy, dream dreams, have visions, etc. in the last days The main problem is the word “all.” If Jesus words were “narrow is the gate that leads to life” and there’s all that scripture which speaks of the great apostasy in the last days, how can this be true? Joel 2:28-29 means that all types of people without regard to gender, age, race, etc. will be saved and hence have the Holy Spirit indwelling. This was Peter’s point at Pentecost.
2) Manifest Sons of God:
The basic belief is that there will be “super-Christians” who will be the Manifest Sons. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of any hierarchy. This is clearly Gnosticism.
3) Joel’s Army:
A sister belief of the two above. The extreme belief is that when Jesus returns, He will return in Spirit only and will inhabit the church “body” of “super-Christians”– the “end-time” generation Bickle keeps referring to. When Bickle states that “the face of Christianity will change in one generation” I believe he believes that! The problem with that is our Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I totally disagree with your assertion regarding the “office” of prophet (or apostle). Do you mean to tell me the church has had this wrong for the past 2000 years and some (the elite perhaps?) are just figuring it out? Where is the scriptural support for that?
Go over to http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/ and look up the posts and comments on this and other beliefs within Christendom. And, I suggest you research with an open mind other sites on the ‘net. God speaks through his Word. Jesus is the Word made flesh. I was told by the individual who tried to seduce me into all these false teachings that I had enough “head knowledge” and needed a “revelation.” Revelation is received by reading the Word with the Holy Spirt as our guide in all Truth.
Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us. I’ve been led to do things by the Spirit many times; but, it’s not some mystical, supernatural experience like I hear of some of the Charismaniacs (extreme Charismatics). The HS is NOT to be worshiped directly. Derek Prince, who was once part of many of these movements has publicly denounced this and repented:
http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm
While I do not agree with everything he says here, he at least turned away from some of his aberrant practices and made public his own mistakes.
I pray you’ll look into all this with an open mind. I’ve spent over 100 hours research into all this stuff being Holy Spirit led. I’m glad I did before I got seduced by the deception.
November 5, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Mary
John,
To embrace you as a brother in the Lord who holds to erroneous views is one thing. I believe you are in serious error.
To embrace someone’s erroneous prophesys (Kim Clement) and Mike Bickle’s false teaching is another thing. To go easy on false teachers, false prophets is simply to expose the sheep to the wolves who will lead them astray. Paul confronted Peter in a rather aggressive manner.
November 5, 2007 at 9:30 pm
John Burton
Peter was a wolf in sheep’s clothing? Yikes. Be careful.
From above:
“This theology is based on an obviously false belief that all will prophesy…”
Again, this is a poorly worded statement. I could just as easily say that your theology is obviously wrong. It’s just a wrong way to say it. It’s one thing to disagree while it’s something totally different to communicate that all Christians who rightly divide the Word subscribe to your point of view. It’s simply not obvious. In fact, it could be quite the opposite.
1 Corinthians 14:31 (NKJV)
For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
And, to say that someone is a wolf is a wildly dangerous statement. I am concerned for you all here. Are there wolves? Certainly… wolves are very intentionally leading people away from Christ. Do you seriously believe that the people you mention are doing this?
Lastly, if we are brothers and sisters, then we should act like a family. You can gently let me know if you feel I’m making a mistake. Then, respectfully give me the option of disagreeing. We can talk about it together as much as we’d like. But if we started ‘outing’ each other and bickering and causing strife, the world sees that as disfunctional.
Remember- it’s absolutely ok and expected for different streams of Christianity to disagree on issues. But, we would never disagree on an absolute. An absolute is a defining element of our Christianity. If we renounce an absolute, we aren’t Christians.
However, if we have disagreements over prophecy, tongues, when Jesus is returning, worship, etc., then that’s ok. We both still love God and we both certainly are right in areas and wrong in areas. It’s ok to disagree.
I’m saddened that people are so opposed to the Charismatic stream that they presumptuously and arrogantly cast judgment, refuse to fellowship, undermine and slander. Where is the love? Where is the humility? Where is the commonality? Why is this issue so important to you? Not the issue of growing in the Word, but the issue of outing other Christians whom you have never met, never presented questions to, never heard their heart.
Do you not realize that it would be equally as easy for Charismatics to cause problems and attack and out the non-Charismatics? Warn people against their ministry? Declare that ‘obviously’ they are deceived? I’m sure some do… which is a shame. We’re all in this together.
Ask yourself an honest question- is it possible that you are wrong? Are you interpreting scripture incorrectly? Many would say you are. Simply embrace humility and admit that many of the Charismatic teachings may possibly be, in fact, correct.
1 Corinthians 1:10-12 (NIV)
10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
November 5, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Mary
John,
Again I would encourage you to check out Kim’s link to sign of jonah on blog roll. They have delt with the errors in Mike Bickle’s teaching in length. False teaching is false teaching. Whether someone gets their feelings hurt or not, the preservation of God’s truth is what matters. Yes, Jesus called Peter Satan at one time. “Get behind me Satan!”
November 5, 2007 at 11:11 pm
John Burton
Mary, I fully agree that we must deal with false teaching.
Everybody- here’s the point. For us to make the claim that teaching is false requires a HUGE responsibility. It would be quite easy… very, very easy… for someone to look at the theology of the cessationist and declare it’s false.
Do you see the point? To call someone a false teacher when in fact they may not be a false teacher is slanderous- and an offense.
Be careful of having an elitist attitude. When you start pointing fingers at every stream of Christianity that is not like yours, you lose credibility.
We could spend quite a bit of time outing the Catholics, the Baptists, the Charismatics, the pre-tribbers, post-tribbers, pro-prophecy, anti-prophecy, KJV only, NIV readers, etc… what’s the point?
I’d encourage you to, again, admit you may be wrong and certainly admit that the issues discussed don’t effect our standing in Christ. We’re all Christians.
November 5, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Kim
You said….
“I’m saddened that people are so opposed to the Charismatic stream that they presumptuously and arrogantly cast judgment, refuse to fellowship, undermine and slander. Where is the love? Where is the humility? ”
Yet you use these words and phrases….(taken from your comments)
reckless, arrogant, uneducated and irresponsible, absurd, hurtful, slanderous and presumptuous, elevate yourself, presumptuously and arrogantly, undermine, slander…..
I had to stop and think about Matthew 7:1-5.
Have i been judgmental in the same way? Have i used the same words myself?
What does it mean to judge others? It does not mean that you should not make careful observation and evaluation of the teaching of others. It is not wrong to judge the difference between good and evil. If one cannot separate the two then you will believe the lies that Satan told Eve in Genesis. So we must separate truth from error. If you think that i am being divisive on this count. So be it.
November 6, 2007 at 12:11 am
Lee
John,
Your use of 1 Corinthians 14:31 is taken out of context. Here it is in its full context:
“29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.”
The point of the passage in context is orderly worship. Rather than 2 or 3 prophets speaking at once causing disorder, only one should speak at a time. Nowhere by the context are we to assume that all — that is everyone — should prophesy. Scripture will never contradict other scripture. If there is a seeming contradiction, this means further study/exposition is necessary.
Going back to Joel 2:28-29: the passage says all but it’s speaking of Holy Spirit indwelled believers. Bickle makes it sound as though there will be a great “harvest of souls” (Latter Rain) and all will prophesy, dream dreams, have visions, which means that all will have the Spirit come upon them as Pentecost. Does this make sense in light of scripture which speaks of the narrow gate? Keep in mind that one can “prophesy, dream dreams and have visions” by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit!
Bickle is a false teacher. He is taking scripture out of context [in many cases I’ve found he leaves out parts of scripture with the use of ellipses (… …)] to arrive at his own conclusions. Whether he is doing this wittingly or unwittingly only God knows. But, I will definitely steer clear of his teachings!
I am not here to judge whether one is a Christian or not — only God knows for sure. As I’ve pointed out before, the Theosophists use different definitions for our Christian tenets [check out their definition of atonement which they term at-one-ment!]; so, it’s even more difficult to ascertain just who is a Christian and who isn’t.
I do agree with Kim above regarding separating truth from error. And, I agree with Mary that it’s the truth of the Word that matters.
My posts are usually direct and to the point and as dispassionate as I can possibly make them. I will not attack a person directly; but, I will attack a teaching. If one continues to teach falsehoods, then, by definition, one has to be considered a false teacher. That is not an attack on Mike Bickle’s character. I’m not trying to cause strife or division; but, I will defend the Truth!
November 6, 2007 at 1:08 am
John Burton
Simply, it’s better, more humble and more accurate to say, “In my opinion…” instead of deciding your interpretation is the most accurate.
It’s very common for true Christians to have differing opinions on non-absolutes, right?
November 6, 2007 at 1:10 am
Kim
We need to watch for false teachings. 2 John 7-11 addresses the false teachings of Gnosticism and the warning John issues should not be taken lightly. Read this:
7 – Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 – Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
9 – Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God: whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
10 – If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.
11 – Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
So anyone who shares in Gnostic teachings will…well..you figure it out.
Dominionism further propagates Gnosticism by teaching that there will be an end-time army or huge harvest of overcomers (joel’s army) who will gain authority of the world. Some go as far as saying that Jesus will not come in the flesh but corporately as Christ Consciousness. This is wicked teaching according to John.
November 6, 2007 at 1:27 am
Kim
In my humble opinion, Dominionism, Gnosticism, and Theosophy are eroding the true Christian faith. John teaches against Gnosticism by calling it wicked and i believe wicked can be interpretated only one way. The KJV uses the word “evil” while the NIV uses “wicked”.
November 6, 2007 at 1:49 am
John Burton
Did you notice vs. 7? Deceivers will be marked by something here- the don’t acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
I’m sure the majority if not all of the people that are being targeted unfairly in this discussion would quickly stand for the reality that Jesus did indeed come in the flesh. No doubt.
November 6, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Mary
Ummmm,
Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Buddhists, Jim Jones, Muslims, Secularists, Catholics, Hindus, etc etc etc all would agree Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Our calander and history agrees. Would you consideer all of those followers of other gospels brothers in Christ?
One who does not acknowledge Jesus has come in the flesh-that is not the definitive and only description of a false teacher.
November 6, 2007 at 9:43 pm
John Burton
I was referencing the verse that was used in this discussion.
Just be aware that you’re on a slippery slope. Based on the criteria on this list, it would be extremely easy for someone to accuse you (and anybody) of being a false teacher.
To call someone a false teacher is to align them with the unsaved. This is a serious accusation indeed.
If someone believes that you are not interpreting scripture correctly, according to your own guidelines, it would be appropriate for them to warn others of your ministry as being false.
There are people out there on the radio, who write books, etc. who are doing such a terrible disservice to the body of Christ… they are elevating themselves as the final authority in regard to Bible interpretation… and have no grace for others who have differing ideas. It’s not right. They need to humbly admit that they may be wrong.
It’s one thing to speak about an issue such as prophecy, end-times, etc… but to start naming names of other precious brothers and sisters in the Lord who have differing views than you is evidence of insecurity and worse.
The Bible tells us not to fellowship with slanderers… it seems as if many are awfully close to falling into this category within the church.
I’m sure there are many theological disagreements that I have with you… just because we’re human. Would it be fair to create a website and focus it on defaming you? On tearing you down? On making sure others know you are a false teacher? I hope you see the point.
Here’s a great article from the President of Fuller Theological Seminary:
A snippet from the article:
We want to oppose false teachers because they do not teach things that are true. But if in our attempts to defeat them we play fast and loose with the truth, by attributing to them things that they don’t in fact teach and if we don’t really care whether we have it exactly right or not then we have become false teachers: teachers of untruths!
I suggest this as a rule of thumb: focus on false teachings rather than on false teachers. When we concentrate on opposing false teachers we tend to think about defeating people which can lead to all kinds of dangers. When we concentrate on the careful examination of false teachings we are more aware of the need to speak truthfully.
November 6, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Kim
John, i see from your website that you are heavily involved with IHOP.
http://r180.com
But i am curious… how do you interpret the passage 2 John 7-11?
Also i have some questions about your book “Covens in the Church” but i have to get back to work for now……
November 7, 2007 at 12:22 am
Mary
John,
Are we like touching a golden calf or something? I don’t consider calvinists, arminians, cessationists, those who sprinkle in baptism, those who dunk, dedicate their babies, ie the minor points of the faith as unsaved or false teachers.
Ihop? That’s a different story.
November 7, 2007 at 12:59 am
John Burton
2 John 7-11 is a fairly simple to grasp warning against non-Christian teachers who declare that Jesus didn’t actually live on the earth. He didn’t come as a man. We are to stay away from such teachers because they violate one of the most important absolutes of scripture.
November 7, 2007 at 1:05 am
John Burton
Understand, my intent is not to defend IHOP or any minister necessarily… but to help bring clarity to a destructive mindset of disunity.
Remember, we have to be very careful not to align ourselves unwittingly with the enemy by ‘accusing the brethren’.
I wonder about the motive of the heart when people live in attack mode against others… and usually against people whom they have no relationship with.
To accuse another believer… especially regarding non-absolutes of scripture, and especially when we don’t even know that person or have had the opportunity to get to know them and allow them to clarify their positions… and give them the benefit of the doubt… is a very serious violation.
November 7, 2007 at 1:20 am
Mary
John,
***sigh****You just won’t consider what anyone else has said here. So no need for me to continue here.
November 7, 2007 at 3:15 am
Kim
John,
So that we can get to know you, would you please clarify your position on Dominionism?
My motive is to understand your positions and how they relate to the standards of Christian othodoxy.
November 7, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Kim
I copied this comment from another post regarding how biblical prophecy is always correct. This is a great link.
“Prophecy. That is the proof of the Bible. Over 300 Messianic prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled with Jesus Christ. The odds in that happening? 10 to the 38th power. Here is an article by a man named Hugh Ross, PhD, http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/prophecy.shtml where he discusses the reliability of the Bible in relation to prophecy fulfillment. We are watching prophecy unfold before our eyes. It is quite amazing. The Rightly Divided Word of God does not contradict itself and Bible prophecy will occur 100% of the time.”
November 8, 2007 at 10:22 am
Rev. Illuminatus Maximus
Somehow I never thought of the International House of Pancakes as something that needed defending, let alone a “false ministry.”
November 8, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Lee
Rev.,
Since I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or if you just don’t know what we are refering to I will state this:
IHOP stands for International House of Prayer of which Mike Bickle is the “leader” if you will. This “ministry” is based out of Kansas City. If you do a ‘net search, you will find plenty of info.
November 8, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Lee
I have been researching a bit to find commentary of 2 John 7
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
and here’s what I’ve found:
From the Matthew Henry Commentary:
he brings some error or other concerning the person of the Lord Jesus; he either confesses not that Jesus Christ is the same person, or that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, the anointed of God, the Messiah promised of old for the redemption of Israel, or that the promised Messiah and Redeemer has come in the flesh, or into the flesh, into our world and into our nature; such a one pretends that he is yet to be expected. Strange that after such evidence any should deny that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God and Saviour of the world! 2. The aggravation of the case–such a one is a deceiver and an antichrist (2 John 1:7); he deludes souls and undermines the glory and kingdom of the Lord Christ. He must be an impostor, a wilful deceiver, after all the light that has been afforded, and all the evidence that Christ has given concerning himself, and the attestation God has given concerning his Son; and he is a wilful opposer of the person, and honour, and interest of the Lord Christ, and as such shall be reckoned with when the Lord Christ comes again. Let us not think it strange that there are deceivers and opposers of the Lord Christ’s name and dignity now, for there were such of old, even in the apostle’s times. [emphasis mine]
From Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament:
Who maintain that he assumed the appearance only of a man, and was not really incarnate.
And from the NIV Study Bible notes on 2 John 7-11:
This section deals with the basic Gnostic heresy attacked in 1 John, namely, that the Son of God did not become flesh (Jn 1:14), but that he temporarily came upon the man Jesus between his baptism and crucifixion
So, if one believes we all have “God potential” like the Theosophists/New Agers and many Eastern religions this is akin to denying Christ’s deity by equating it to our own.
and from Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory
on the Whole Bible:
The oldest manuscripts read, “have gone forth,” namely, from us.
confess not . . . Jesus . . . in the flesh–the token of Antichrist.
is come–Greek, “coming.” He who denies Christ’s coming in the flesh, denies the possibility of the incarnation; he who denies that he has come, denies its actuality. They denied the possibility of a Messiah’s appearing, or coming, in the flesh [NEANDER]. I think the Greek present participle implies both the first and the second advent of Christ. He is often elsewhere called the Coming One (Greek),…
Please note the underlined portion above. Bickle implies this (denying Christ will return bodily but only in Spirit form) with the Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army (who will be the “body” the returning Christ will inhabit)teaching.
November 8, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Lee
On my last paragraph above “Please note the underlined portion above” I was referring to “the Greek present participle implies both the first and the second advent of Christ. He is often elsewhere called the Coming One…”
Sorry for any confusion. I hope that clears it up.
November 8, 2007 at 6:45 pm
Lee
“Remember, we have to be very careful not to align ourselves unwittingly with the enemy by ‘accusing the brethren’.”
Satan is the accuser of the brethren. By pointing out false teaching we are not “aligning ourselves with the enemy.” We are doing our biblical mandate!
November 8, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Lee
On the other hand regaring International House of Pancakes — weren’t they the ones perpetuating the virgin Mary apparitions in the their pancakes. Heresy indeed! 🙂
Just trying in inject a bit of humor!
November 8, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Mary
LOL!
John said:
To accuse another believer… especially regarding non-absolutes of scripture, and especially when we don’t even know that person or have had the opportunity to get to know them and allow them to clarify their positions… and give them the benefit of the doubt… is a very serious violation.
I would say ,John, Jesus’s bodily return to earth is an absolute. Don’t You?
Bickle’s public teacing is clear. I don’t need to approach him and get to know him personally and give him the benefit of the doubt.