The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America on Friday approved a resolution to allow gays and lesbians in same-sex relationships to be ordained. ELCA’s highest legislative body voted 559-451 during the biennial Churchwide Assembly in Minneapolis.
I attend a ELCA church. Today our Pastor announced he is leaving the ELCA because of the above resolution. There are going to be lines drawn in the sand in our church. It is going to be interesting to see who leaves with the Pastor and who wants to remain in the apostasy of this liberal synod.
We have an older congregation and many hold to the truths of God’s Word and we cling to each other. Some do not hold to the truths and are being seduced by ecumenism and universalism.
A new article by Jan Markell is fascinating because the excerpt below, describes what is happening this very day in our congregation.
Since the vote on Friday I have heard from good Lutheran people who plan to leave the ELCA. May their vote with their feet send a message that urges others to follow them. The ELCA is likely not going to change, so lovers of truth and the Bible in all liberal denominationsshould take a cue from disgusted ELCA members now looking for a new church home.
Read “Was God in the Whirlwind?” by Jan Markell ….HERE
I believe this tornado was a judgment against the church… Please boldly stand with those who have the courage to separate themselves from the apostasy and walk in obedience to the Word of God.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Rom 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
DiscernIt 
29 comments
August 24, 2009 at 11:12 pm
Craig
This must be a very sad day for you Kim. I read about this a few days ago; and, I also read about the tornado and the resulting broken steeple (and its cross upside down!). Coincidence? I think not!
With the two Romans verses you (appropriately) cite, I always like to add the following:
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals[/catamites], nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. [I Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV]
Verses 9 & 10 spell out the judgment for those leading those lifestyles, while verse 11 gives hope that these individuals can be changed by the washing of the Word Who became flesh — Jesus Christ — and died for all who believe in Him and obey His commands.
August 25, 2009 at 6:35 am
cheryl U.
Hi Kim,
I feel your pain at the moment. There is a special pain, I think, that happens when a church you have been a part of takes a desperately wrong turn and goes into apostacy of whatever sort it is.
May God give all of you that are taking a stand His grace and also His comfort and peace during this time. And maybe He will use you too to impact others to wake up to the reality of what is going on! God bless you.
August 25, 2009 at 8:31 am
cheryl U.
Hi again Kim,
I’m glad to know you have been able to make a difference in your local church. It is just sad that no one has been able to do it at the denominational level, isn’t it? Doesn’t sound like even a tornado made them stop and rethink! I am just so glad to know that God is still faithful.
August 25, 2009 at 9:23 am
jb
et al,
we have been burned so many times that we haven’t attended a church group since April. Raised RC, moved into gnosticism, scientology, yoga, than new age, then new age Baptist to AoG, to a Calvary Chapel and being saved some where in there despite them all. God is amazing, listen to this:
Last Sunday my family and another family that is fed up with the garbage went to a home fellowship. My wife and my friends wife thought it would be weird and I had some doubts and promised if it seemed cultish we would get up and walk out immediately (I’ve done it in churches before).
Because of the path I took earlier in life I can smell new age from a mile away, but the Lord brought a peace to me when we were leaving to go Sunday morning.
When we got there it was a nice home in an old wealthier part of town. They were welcoming, but not touchey/feeling or weird, and the peace was still with me, but I kept waiting for something weird. It was just like a small group! Only they made the point that Christ was always the center of worship and praise during the gathering, so they break bread (not communion, which is eucharistic and RC) first with it being on the coffee table (someone baked a loaf of fresh bread). There was no ceremonial waiting of eating and drinking of the juice.
We sang 4-5 old hymns (they have more contemorary hymn/songs) in books that were laid out on the coffee table so everyone could turn to say song 96. In between songs someone would share a few bible versus that they wanted to share or if one just happens to come to them (this happened about 4 times).
We then prayed a few prayers and broke for a small brunch, talked with people in the group (most have given up on institutional churches) many small biz owners. Then one of the “elders” taught a few versus of Col. and related it to some OT and the like, then we prayed and it ended.
My wife is Jewish by birth and said it was exactly like her growing up and going to passover except their were no Yidish being spoken and no Hebrew songs sung or candles. SHE LOVED IT! I was so happy I almost cried. My friends wife was the most reluctant, but couldn’t find anything she didn’t like other than it wasn’t “institutional enough”, she likes the idea of outward ministry and asked a few questions about it with the elder who taught Col. He said there is nothing wrong with getting together and going to Senior homes or orphanages. As far as tithe goes he went and printing of some pages on how the OT tithe is actually 28% and the NT is 100% tithe and was honest enough about saying he didn’t know where the 10% tithe came from. Tithe is never asked for and if the group gets too big it splits or “multiplies”. If a group wants to meet a goal for donation to the needy it is encouraged and accepted, but not imposed upon anyone no matter what.
The reason we went was because my friend was training through an AoG and the church went to heck in a hand basket and for the last 2 years they’ve been bouncing around and he thought about starting a home church. After Sunday, my wife offered full commitment to use our home as the meeting place with my approval.
May the Good Lord find you where you are and bless you Kim. The only thing different about what we witnessed on Sunday was TRUTH. You do not need a “pastor” to baptize you, all you need is a believer who is saved, and you do not need a “pastor” to break bread, the same truth applies. It was no different than a small group meeting with the breaking of the bread and a teaching by an elder who EXPECTS YOU TO DISCERN IT AS A BEREAN.
God bless you all.
jb
August 25, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Kim
jb,
The fellowship you found in this home sounds wonderful. And you made some great points.
We can administer to each other, 100% of what we own belongs to the Lord, we can give as we see the need, bread can be used for communion, (I sometimes bake the bread for altar guild), the older hymns are sung, (the words are God-glorifing) and sharing verses inbetween hymns sounds great. wow…
August 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Valerie
Question concerning the breaking of bread.
Does it matter if the bread is leavened or unleavened?
The leaven represented sin.
I know that we are no longer under the levitical laws, but knowing this fact about leaven, I would have a hard time saying that I broke bread, when in fact it would need to be either cut or ripped apart.
I know a lot of churches have started using loaves of bread. I used to attend a church back in the mid 1990’s that started doing that, and it turned out that they were following Jack Deere and the Signs and Wonders teachers.
With that said, we are not saved by which bread we use or by the “sacraments”, I was just wondering what others thought of this concept.
Any comments would be appreciated.
August 26, 2009 at 2:22 pm
cheryl U.
Valerie,
I have a comment, but it won’t be very helpful except to let you know you are not alone in your question! I had wondered about the same things and have no answers either.
August 26, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Kim
I am on the Altar Guild at our church. Here is what we do. We have a manual but I have never seen it.
It is suggested that we use unleavened bread. We have an unleavened bread recipe that contains wheat and white flour, molasses, salt and water. It is quite good but not easy to make. You pat it out into 6″ circles and bake them.
We ALWAYS use the unleavened bread during Lent or the 8 weeks before Easter. We are given the freedom to use regular bread the remainder of the year. We bake it ourselves. Once though a lady forgot to make the bread and brought banana bread. We still whisper about that one occasionally.
I am not too worried about yeast in the bread since we are to partake as a remembrance of Him. Some think it is too legalistic to ban the yeast. Some have said the passover bread had no yeast because the meal was to be prepared in haste. No time to rise.
I grew up in a church that used the Matzah crackers. I prefer unleavened bread because it seems more authentic, but I am not ready to call communion bread with yeast unbiblical. I look forward to more comments.
August 27, 2009 at 5:49 am
Craig
I have some comments; but, it’ll have to wait till I return from work this evening.
August 27, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Craig
First, we must bear in mind that OT practices/customs are many times a type or shadow of things to come in the NT.
The OT practice of the Passover / Feast of Unleavened Bread [festival of freedom] was in commemoration of the original Passover (Exodus 12) in which a sacrificial lamb was slain, its blood placed over the doorpost of each Hebrew family’s home in order to save the firstborn from death. Each year afterward on the 14th of Nisan was to be the Passover Meal which consisted of lamb just as the initial Passover. In addition, on the 14th through the 21st [the last week of March] – The Feast of Unleavened Bread – they were to eat only unleavened bread. However, on the 14th and 21st there were to be sacrifices and celebrations. Moses established this as a lasting ordinance.
In the NT, The Last/Lord’s Supper [Matt. 26:17-30; Mk 14:12-26; Lk 22:7-23] was done just like the OT custom during Passover. The Luke passage and the (post-resurrection) 1 Corinthians 11:24 are the only two which specify that we are to continue celebrating this [“…do this in remembrance of me”].
However, Jesus is the new “Passover lamb” [John 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:7]; and, obviously His atoning work on the Cross means that we are not to practice any more sacrifices. Jesus also fulfilled the Law. So, does this mean we would necessarily copy the OT practice of using unleavened bread only without the sacrifices? Also, given that this was an annual festival, does this mean we are to celebrate this only once a year?
Following are NT examples:
42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. [Acts 2:42-47 NIV]
This was some time after the Day of Pentecost (which is 50 days after Passover); so, I think it’s safe to assume this was NOT during the following year’s Passover. Also, there’s nothing to say they partook of the cup – just that they ‘broke bread.’ And, these passages do not say which kind of bread; however, verse 46 seems to say that they were eating regular meals and breaking bread with them.
…6But we sailed from Philippi after the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and five days later joined the others at Troas, where we stayed seven days.
7On the first day of the week [Sunday] we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “He’s alive!” 11Then he went upstairs again and broke bread [early Monday morning] and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. [Acts 20:6-11 NIV]
Once again, it is obvious that the breaking of bread did not occur during Passover as the Feast of Unleavened Bread had passed at least 5 days prior according to verse 6. Also, note that the breaking of bread was done two days in a row.
15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. [1 Corinthians 10:15-17 NIV]
Here Paul speaks of the ‘cup of thanksgiving along with the ‘bread that we break.’
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. [I Corinthians 11:23-29 NIV]
This appears to say that we are to partake of the bread and cup periodically but no specific time interval is given.
I believe also we should take into account what James said in Acts 15:19 to the Gentiles:
19″It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. [NIV]
Therefore, my own conclusion is that we should take bread (any kind) and drink (any kind — preferably other than strong drink, or at least only a small bit so as not to get drunk) and celebrate the Lord’s Supper in memory of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the Cross whenever we feel led. I think it comes down to a heart attitude.
My two cents…
August 27, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Kim
This has been an interesting study…
Here are two verses from the NT both using the Greek word for bread.
Mar 8:14 Now 2532 [the disciples] had forgotten 1950 to take 2983 bread 740, neither 2532 3756 had 2192 they in 1722 the ship 4143 with 3326 them 1438 more than 1508 one 1520 loaf 740.
1Cr 11:26 For 1063 as often as 302 3740 ye eat 2068 this 5126 bread 740, and 2532 drink 4095 this 5124 cup 4221, ye do shew 2605 the Lord’s 2962 death 2288 till 891 302 he 3739 come 2064 .
here is the greek definition for 740 bread.
G740 Bread
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one’s thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord’s Table
So it is interesting…while we know that the Lords Supper that occured in Gospels was the passover which called for unleavened bread, the instruction in 1 Corinthians uses the same definition for bread, a general bread that the disciples would take on the ship with them.
I would say that this it is not really conclusive but i do like this verse:
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
So I am in agreement with Craig about a heart attitude, that it should be sincerity and true.
Also I learned that yeast was not the main leavening agent. It was fermentation. Like sourdough. A bit was added from the old batch to the new batch. Therefore we get “a little leavens the whole lump.”
August 28, 2009 at 1:15 am
Craig
Kim,
I was going to point out the definition of 740 as you did above; but, I didn’t (obviously). However, please note that 740 also has a 2nd definition:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=740
…which is:
2. food of any kind.
And, I agree — this was an interesting study!
August 28, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Valerie
Thanks Craig and Kim,
I am especially grateful for the scripture that Kim quoted.
1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
Just like circumsision is to be of the heart.
I appreciate your time and effort and sincerity in searching this out.
This is one of my favorite blog sites.
Grace and Peace,
Valerie
August 28, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Sandy
Hi Kim,
I do not know if you remember me, but I posted on your “False Prophet” blog I think it was.
I am so sorry. I know many are having a field day with this, and I have just posted a blog on the Lutheran site also, that it is time to pray and not gloat. I am the Catholic if you remember.
There is a Lutheran Church next door to me, and they are horrified over this.
I want you to know at times it is very hard to worship in a Church which has scandals attached to it. But you have to seperate your worship from the sandals. Your worship is about God, and not the wrongs in your Church.
I am asked many times, “How can I remain in a Church with such scandals as we have had?” To which my reply is, “God is God and man is man. My worship of God and where I worship Him is totally seperate from how I feel about the scandals.”
Keep your chin up and I am praying for you all.
God Bless, Sandy
August 29, 2009 at 9:26 am
Craig
Interestingly, while searching for something else entirely I stumbled upon the Greek word “eucharistia” (or eucharisteo) which is Strong’s 2168 meaning:
1.) to be grateful, feel thankful
2.) give thanks
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=2168
From the NIV I looked up the words “thanks” and “thanksgiving” and found that the English equivalent was derived from the Greek “eucharisteo” (or a variation of this) most of the time while at other times these words were derived from a different Greek word (more on that below). In the NT 2168 is predominately in reference to being thankful to God (27 out of 37 times). It was also used in reference to the ‘bread and fish’ (3 times) in Matt 15:36, Mark 8:6 & John 6:11; and, these passages have NOTHING to do with the Lord’s/Last Supper.
The point I’m trying to make is that I find it interesting that the Roman Catholic Church has redefined the term ‘Eucharist’ to mean a ‘Holy Sacrament’ when this Greek word is simply about being thankful or giving thanks.
Here’s more. Even in the passages which speak of the Lord’s/Last Supper there is a split in their usage between 2168 and 2127 (eulogeo — where we get the word eulogy). In fact, 2127 would be closer to the Catholic Church’s redefinition with the 3rd definition below:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=2127
eulogeo:
1.) to praise, celebrate with praises
2.) to invoke blessings
3.) to consecrate a thing with solemn prayers
a. to ask God’s blessing on a thing
b. pray God to bless it to one’s use
c. pronounce a consecratory blessing on
4.) of God
a. to cause to prosper, to make happy, to bestow blessings on
b. favoured of God, blessed
Here are two examples of the split usage:
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks [2127] and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks [2168] and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.” [Matthew 26:26-27]
22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks [2127] and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.” 23Then he took the cup, gave thanks [2168] and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.
One may conclude that 2168 has to do with the ‘cup’ while 2127 has to do with the ‘bread’; however, the Apostle Paul reverses this usage in 1 Corinthians 10:16 and 1 Corinthians 11:24 while the good doctor Luke uses 2168 for both [Luke 22:14; 22:17].
The bottom line is that the RCC has twisted the meaning of scripture to justify its paganistic ritual of the Eucharist and the accompanying belief of Transubstantiation.
August 29, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Sandy
Dear Kim,
I understand fully and trust me, my heart bleeds for all of you. When things like this happen each person must do what they feel God is telling them to do. You know I understand. I do not feel one person needs to catch any slack at all for the stand that they make, if it be to stay or leave.
Things like this hit our Churches which we have no control over. The only thing we can do is what we feel is right for us spiritually.
Again, all of you are in my prayers. I will never come against one of you for what you decide to do. One of my best friends is Lutheran and she and I were discussing this yesterday, and she thinks it is just horrible. A lot of Lutherans are doing a lot of soul searching on this issue. May God lead and direct your paths, and may He give each and every one of you the comfort you need in your hearts.
Love in Christ, Sandy
August 29, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Kim
Thank you Sandy,
kim
August 29, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Sandy
Kim, One last thing. You have my email, and you know you can email me whenever you need to vent, talk, or just need someone to listen. I am here for you. Love, Sandy
September 2, 2009 at 2:50 pm
jb
Craig,
great post. I wonder though if the protestant church hasn’t followed suit in many ways of the RCC. I have become very cynical of religious institutions so take my opinions with a grain of salt and know that I will offend, but I also love my brothers and sisters in Christ no matter what franchise, ahem… denomination they are in.
This past Sunday we started our home fellowship with just the two families. We had the following: 2 adult M, 2 adult F, 13, 11, 10, 7 year olds. The kids attentions were held and we all had a great time breaking bread and having juice in rememberance of Jesus. My friend commented that they could only find cranberry juice in the small 1 liter and no grape juice. “Well then, can’t do it!” Sounds kind of stupid doesn’t it? Leavened or unleavened, who cares I don’t think it’s about that. If you are going to get it that detailed you better start thinking of many other details that go missing out of denominational tradition.
Has anyone read Frank Viola’s book Pagan Christianity? I’m not a follower of his and there is some contradictions in there and he is making money of followers, but he has some great insights into how our “church” as it is now does not resemble the original church no matter what a pastor says. I have heard a couple of pastors who wanted their “church” to be like the original, but when you look into it we look very much like a combination of the Corinthian church and combination of a few of the churches in Revelations.
September 2, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Craig
jb,
The Protestant denominations do not go as far as the RCC with its doctrine of Transubstantiation; but, I agree that the practice of Communion gets legalistic and strays from what I believe was Jesus’ intent.
Like you, I have a hard time with denominations. Since I did not grow up in the ‘church,’ and, since I was a non-Christian up until near the age of 40, I was turned off by most denominations. The more I studied Scripture, the more I saw practices I did not like even in the non-denoms I’ve attended. Also, having studied the New Age Movement BEFORE I became a Christian I was wary of some denominations and practices at other churches. So, currently, I’m ‘churchless’ although I do lead a study which is hosted at a friend’s place every other Friday.
The word we translate as ‘church’ comes from the Greek ‘ekklesia’ which means essentially “called out ones.” Here’s the Strong’s:
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=1577
So, I’ve never gone for the idea that one must become a ‘member’ of a particular ‘church’ as this sounds almost like a covenant (at least one church here in town actually states this) while I believe in the clear words of Jesus, “Let your yes by yes and your no mean no.” [Matthew 5:36-37]
I’ve not read Viola’s book; so, I can’t comment.
September 3, 2009 at 9:10 am
jb in co
Craig,
we have similar backgrounds. I am in my late 30s and was into some na things. I am aware of the meaning of church and understand what you are saying, I agree 100%. I went to catholic school all my life, and you wouldn’t believe what priests believed back then. I had a biology teacher (priest) who worshiped with crystals and this is back in the mid 80s. One of the principles was queerer than a 3 dollar bill, everyone knew it but the board? Two had drinking problems. I might be giving away where I went when I say this, but it’s hilarious! One principle was infatuated with winning sweepstakes and would buy boxes of candy like snickers and peanut butter cups and spend all day opening them and/or scratching the little insert inside with a penny to see if he won. If you got into trouble and were sent to his office, he would make you help him open and scratch them, but you weren’t allowed to eat the candy bar (some kids came out of there somewhat looney seeing a large trash bin full of uneated chocolate bars- ha ha!)
September 3, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Kim
jb,
What odd experiences you had in the catholic school….the players sound like a cast from a secular school in a movie.
I also like the home fellowship churches. We will see where the Lord leads me.
Sandy,
You are very kind and do not be suprised if I take you up on your offer.
kim
September 4, 2009 at 5:32 am
Valerie
Kim,
I just wanted to comment that my husband and I had our names removed from the membership of a PCA Presbyterian Church in November 2008. After studying some of Rick Warrens ideas on Church membership, I was no longer comforable with the whole idea of Church membership.
I believe that this is an unbiblical practice used to control the sheep instead of those under their care being constrained by love. If pastors were really wanting to serve their fellow brothers and sisters, they wouldnt’ be so quick to make every effort to grow their “churches” into these huge monstrocities that they call churches.
Putting on a mask (the gospel message) for greed!
I am a member of the only true Church by faith and by the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. God has written my name in the book of life. Funny how they won’t let you serve in the Church until you pledge a kind of loyalty to that Church. I understand why they think this is neccessary, but it is really a joke. Most people agree to the “terms” of membership without any convictions whatsoever. Just like marriages, people are constantly “changing their membership”.
Valerie
We are attending a local church right now, but we are never going to “join” another local church.
Thanks so much for your blog and I will pray for you about leaving your church home. It is a hard decision. We had been at our previouschurch for 13 years.
September 4, 2009 at 7:04 am
Kim
Thank you Valerie,
I knew the day would come when it would be time to leave this church. What surprised me is that the Pastor is advising the congregation to also leave and reform.
If enough people agree then we could stay, if not, we will search anew. I suppose I am being naive about the number of people against the gay resolution.
I didn’t realize at the time that I should not become a “registered member” of any church.
September 4, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Sandy
Dear Kim and Valerie,
Just to let you know Kim I had to shut blog down for awhile, have been diagnosed with MRSA, so your prayers are greatly needed and appreciated. Anyone elses for that matter, feeling pretty lousy. But God has been good and kind to me through it all, and I will wait until He heals me.
The reason I am writing this though is to let you and Valerie know, I feel and hurt for all of you so much. Being Catholic I truly understand how man and his sins can come into a Church, any Church, that is truly meant to be a beautiful place to worship our Lord and make it very ugly. Then so many decisions are laid before us that all of a sudden we are forced to make because of those sins. Some we make that others do not understand and some we make they do. You must remember it is never about another’s opinion when it comes to what we feel God has called us to do, and where to do it at. At that moment it is only between you and God.
I hate it so bad that you are going to ask to be taken off of the membership of your Church and the same for you Valerie, but I will uphold the two of you for any decision which you have made.
All I know is this. I truly trust God to work all the problems out we have in our Church and I trust Him for the same in yours. I have to as some in the Christian community it seems are so full of hate for those who go to this Church and worship this way or that way. We need to remember, “Church is a place for sinners not a house for saints.” We are all trying to get to heaven as best as we can.
I see much more of this coming in the future for many Churches, as we have become a society which tolerates much. I wonder at times what the future holds for our children regarding their Church and the beliefs of that Church. We need to pray for them as much as we can, while we still can.
My spirit is truly sadden by all of this. Valerie I do not know you, but I have read what you have written and I know your heart is very true to what you believe, and that is all we can hold to.
Kim, I have had conversations with you, and even though we have gone to different Churches that has never stood in our way of our belief and love of God. It has never stopped us from being kind to one another. I want you to know you and the Lutheran Church are in my prayers, but most of all I pray this door which has been closed for you only leads you to a greater and wider door, with only the love of God standing on the other side. May He walk before you in each step you take towards where He is calling you. I know this Kim, you will do what you feel He wants you to do. This is always my motto: “If I make a mistake getting to the place God wants me to be, He will take care of the mistake as long as I am trying to get to Him.” The same will hold true for you if you take a little stumble on your new highway so to speak.
God Bless you both, and May He not take His Hand off of either of you, Sandy
September 5, 2009 at 10:00 am
Valerie
Dear Sandy,
I must admit that I do not worship the same Jesus as the Roman Catholic Church, so you are right to understand that we do not agree in this area. Now the only concern for us is that we can’t both be correct. One of us is wrong.
The only correct understanding comes from the Spirit of God through the Word of God. It does not matter whether I agree with you or the Roman Catholic Church or whether you agree with my views. It only matters that we seek to be in agreement with God and the words that Jesus spoke.
Thank you for your concern. I know you are sincerely concerned.
I will pray for you to recover from the MRSA.
Valerie
September 5, 2009 at 11:12 am
Kim
Sandy,
I so sorry to hear that you have MRSA. My prayers are with you.
The church has nothing to do with a building, statues, memberships. The early church in Acts met in peoples homes. Like Craig mentioned earlier the church means a people ” called out”, separate from the world, holy to the Lord.
I have no problem whatsoever, walking away from a membership that says that the church leadership can be homosexuals. The world is becoming more and more sinful and the apostate church, (those who do not obey scripture) is following right behind it.
September 5, 2009 at 11:46 am
Sandy
Dear Kim and Valerie,
Thank you so much for your prayers, the abcess I had looks much much better today, so I know God is hearing and answering all prayers.
You both are correct we do not agree on some things, and we cannot all be correct. Does that mean we are all wrong though? I have a hard time with that one, as we are all going to make errors in judgment and of course we are all sinners, redeemed by the Blood of Jesus.
I do not know about worshipping this Jesus or that Jesus. I worship the One who loves us all, and was willing to pay the price for all of our sins. Who rose on the third day, and forever keeps us in His heart. To me that is Jesus as there can be no other. If He did not turn the thief away when he cried out to Jesus or even those who persecuted Him and hung Him on the Cross, I cannot see Him doing it to anyone who calls upon His name.
I know this, we are very much loved by God. We all love and worship a very forgiving and merciful God. I know God has wrath, but even in His wrath there is still mercy. As long as we trust in that, and trust and believe what the Cross did for us, I think the differences on how we believe, God Himself will handle one day. Until that day I will love all of you be you purple and yellow and call yourselves a duck:>) I just do not care. I might be wrong but I am sorry that does not enter into my life with another created creature of God. I am more concerned about how my actions represent Him to others, than I am about who is wrong or right.
There are too many Churches out here and too many different beliefs for us to all be at war with one another. Again that is how I feel and no one has to feel that way.
Keeping you all in my prayers and heart. Kim, I am very happy that you have peace with your decision. I thank God for giving you that peace.
God Bless you both, Sandy
September 5, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Craig
Kim,
I’m glad you are taking a stand and rescinding your membership. I’m sure it wasn’t an easy decision; but, the fact that you have the group outside the church probably made it easier.
I feel there will very soon become a time when the true remnant will be ‘underground;’ i.e., worshiping in home groups and not in a church building per se.
Valerie,
You are quite right, of course, with your statement about belonging to the corporate church of believers worldwide. Any Holy Spirit indwelled true believer is a brother or sister of another.
It is frustrating that most churches require ‘membership’ in order to serve. For that reason, I was always sort of on the periphery when I was going to the different churches here in San Antonio.
One thing I’ve often wondered about: what should one do when leaving town for another city/town and then ‘joining’ a new church. Does this necessitate rescinding membership from the previous church? What if it’s the same denomination — does this matter? Once I started thinking this through logically, it just didn’t make sense to join any church. I believe this is just one of those ‘traditions of men’ that got handed down through the centuries. And, I do believe my coming to faith rather late made some things much easier as I didn’t have things to unlearn.