This is a very important article especially in light of the current Lakeland “Revival” being led by Todd Bentley…
It affected me deeply on two levels. Steve relates what should happen in a true revival and the comparision of what we are seeing today is truly stark. Also.. it made me think and ponder the idolatry in my own life. I have to ask myself..what is it that God wants me to GIVE UP in order to serve Him? Please read……
Here is a portion of this article taken from here:
http://indywatchman.wordpress.com
Much is being said, and many are praying for revival. With the carnival act going on in Florida, and the mega-mentality of the Church growth industry, it is being said and believed that, with the mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the people of God all problems would be addressed and remedied, all disabilities and debts relinquished, and all foolishness reversed, etc., etc., etc. Reference is made to past visitations and blessings, and loose translations of Scripture are trumpeted, with the intent that the sheep will draw certain conclusions as to God’s plans and their privileged position with the Almighty. True spirituality, as recorded in the Bible, invariably had the effect of making ridiculous many of the things of which the Church is so proud of today; calling childish most of what the Church requires as essential elements. True spirituality discounts many of the things the Church today takes for granted, and upsets the wagon of the status quo. This kind of revival only takes place when there is a real unity through connectedness, a commonness of spirit, and a foundation of oneness. Real revival is destructive and bold, and turns the world upside down. Revival is a great shaking, and causes things to come apart, and is not applauded by the world, but stomped on, and persecuted, and driven out, and extinguished– if possible.
********************
In times of true revival the Holy Spirit does not revive worldly religious things, He destroys them, and tears them down. All the machinery of men must go. Does it mean then, since we see the exploding of the mega-church growth movement, and the emerging movement, and the carnival healing movement, the massive machinery of men crawling over the earth, building God’s Church for Him, that we are in “Revival?” NO! It is the exact opposite, men have become mega-maniacs, gorged on their own foolishness, drooling all over themselves in their frantic efforts to reverse a world spinning out of control, and they dare not trust something so nebulous, as faith in God. They not only do not trust God, but teach others to not trust God. All these things of men must be left behind, but man has so much invested in his efforts that that is not likely to happen. The Bible just can not mean what it plainly says, there must be an answer elsewhere, and many men are vying for that cherished position, with preposterous presentations, and are winning great followings; it is insanity. The effects of revival is the smashing and tearing down of all our idols; the things that we have built up in our lives and in our heads as being necessary to the spiritual life. No sacrifice was ever made to God that did not die. To die is hard. To empty our selves is painful. To watch as God reduces to ashes our whole life, all that we have built and became attached to, it is nearly impossible to do. To take our most cherished possession and hand it over to God is a real stretch that throws our whole life out of joint. He doesn’t want our damaged goods, only our very best is good enough to give. That little lamb that would have been the beginning of that new flock, that would allow you the retirement you long for, that beauty, that had become the family pet, the one that was well beloved, it alone was good enough and you know it, spotless, without blemish, perfect in all his ways. You watch as your young son hands over the little lamb, and the priest puts the blade to his neck, and you watch as you see your retirement run out onto the ground, a scarlet red, and you watch as the body is laid on the altar, and you watch as your life goes up in smoke, a sweet savor unto the Lord. Then it is that you realize, you have been accepted of the Lord, and your life is in His hands, and you are truly safe and sound, in Him.
There is none of this in all the talk you hear today. There is none of this coming out of the pulpit, the cost is just too great, jobs could be jeopardized, funds depleted, and people lost. But, this is the message of revival. My heart aches at the thought of such a move of God. I am not satisfied with phoniness, the foolishness going on today to please the crowds and keep them coming, and giving. The delusional visions, and words from God about so-and-so, and such-and-such, sickens me. The casting out of demons, even from furniture and houses and cars, it’s lunacy, and it is dangerous. It doesn’t matter if it is false manifestations of the spirit or the manifestations of men, it is all of this world and God has discounted it, and weighed it, and found it worthless and vain. It is not only unimportant but it is a barrier between God and man. All of these methods have been found wanting, they just have not produced the kind of men that God requires, but God has found Himself some men and women, who will do His will, who know what God wants, and with His help they obey.
It is nearly impossible for Christianity to believe that anything can go on without the influx of men and machinery, marketing and management, and all the support from the organization! God’s mightiest and most fruitful works in nature and in His gifts to us are not done in a closet, quietly, inconspicuously, and they are done even before we realize there exist a need for it. We can’t appreciate the resurrection of nature every Spring-time without appreciating God’s mercy for an unworthy race. He knows what we need, even when we don’t deserve it. What God is trying to tell us is that we don’t need an organization, we need an organism, a real LIFE.
Full article:
here – http://indywatchman.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/gods-secret-of-revival/
DiscernIt 
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June 12, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Rudy Pohl
Bentley Explains:
On June 8, 2008, Todd Bentley posted on his ministry’s website a detailed letter explaining a number of things that people are confused or stumbling over regarding the outpouring and himself, and in which he appeals for unity in the Body of Christ. We have found this letter to be solidly Biblical, balanced, well-written, and quite helpful. It can be found at this link: http://www.freshfire.ca/?Id=1059&pid=993
Biblical Scholar provides theological support:
Dr. Gary S. Greig, PhD., former Associate Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Regent University School of Divinity, and Senior Editor, Theology and Acquisitions for the Regal Publishing Group, has written a theological response to questions and criticisms of the Lakeland outpouring. Dr. Greig recently wrote “Biblical Reasons to Receive God’s Glory and Give it Away in Power Evangelism,” so that as many as possible would receive “biblical permission” to get on board and fully commit to receiving the Lord’s glory and anointing, and to give it away in power evangelism. You can find his paper at this link: http://www.freshfire.ca/UserFiles/File/drGreg_biblicalperspective2008.pdf
Read more at http://www.barrhavennewlifechurch.ca/Lakeland_Revival_Bentley.html
June 12, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Mary B
Excuse me but what?????
Rudy Pohl said:
“Biblical Reasons to Receive God’s Glory and Give it Away in Power Evangelism,” so that as many as possible would receive “biblical permission” to get on board and fully commit to receiving the Lord’s glory and anointing, and to give it away in power evangelism”
I have no idea what that means. Convoluted statements like that only reflect the need of this movement to turn the mind off in order to pass this off as something that is of God.
June 12, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Mary B
I see Rudy Pohl is making the blog rounds to defend Todd Bentley- Perhaps due to the massive condemnation of Todd’s revival coming from the internet. Todd’s probably sending out his supporters in hopes of squashing the doubts that are arising due to his inconsistent visions and practices. At the very least I hope Emeril sues Todd for stealing his signature “BAM”.
June 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Kim
Yes, this seems evident.
There is so much wrong with Bentley’s statement that i am boggled down to attempt to reply to it.
http://www.freshfire.ca/?Id=1059&pid=993
June 13, 2008 at 11:40 am
Lee
Kim,
I know what you mean regarding the Bentley statement and “Biblical Scholar” Dr. Gary S. Greig, PhD. That will require quite a bit of time to refute it point by point. Why do people buy this garbage?
June 13, 2008 at 11:46 am
Lee
Kim,
Have you seen this yet?
http://ag.org/top/General_Superintendent/Statement_on_Revival.cfm
Dr. Wood provides a very balanced view of just what a revival is. It’s obvious that he is speaking on Lakeland/Bentley in the way he stresses certain words and phrases.
June 13, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Kim
Thanks Lee,
I got it posted. Although i posted another response stating this was lame but better than nothing.
June 13, 2008 at 7:02 pm
John Burton
Todd’s letter is truly excellent. It highlights his devotion to Jesus Christ and comes across quite humble. Some may say that what Todd does is unbiblical, though the more accurate way to say it is: I have a different view from Todd on some issues.
Differing opinions are ok… though, to declare oneself final authority on Bible interpretation is quite a declaration indeed. Of course, we all must agree on the absolutes of scripture, which is why we can disagree on lesser matters and still love Jesus, win the lost and love others.
The last point I pasted below is important. We are so intellectually oriented that anything mystical or supernatural can make us uneasy. Why? We can’t explain another’s encounter. He makes some great points:
>For someone to assume that something that happens to us isn’t of God because it’s not in his or her doctrine or knowledge of Jesus is, in my opinion, to grieve the precious Holy Spirit. I believe each experience is unique and tailored to the individual’s background, experiences, circumstances, capacity to receive, and personal relationship with Jesus.
>Because one person may not be able to relate to a dream, vision, or experience of another, he or she may attribute this to the devil or to the flesh, or hallucinations, for example. I’m sure many have seen strange things happen in our meetings – things that puzzle, things that aren’t normal to them, but understand – God doesn’t seek approval for how He manifests through His people or in signs and wonders.
>Mary, Paul, Peter, Jesus, the shepherds, and several disciples, and many Old Testament folk like Abraham, Hagar, Daniel, and others had angelic encounters and some interacted with them in conversation. That doesn’t suppose they worshiped these angelic beings or sought them out for revelation apart from God. I never summon angels directly. I do ask God to send angels to encamp around me, and others.
>In visions and encounters that I share, I emphasize that it boils down to Jesus Christ who is the essence of everything and is the All in All. It’s all about Him, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. An encounter with heaven is an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ
>Revival shakes paradigms. It doesn’t fit the mainstream Church’s way of thinking. Revival is an upstream move of God that breaks away from the stagnant pools of religion and tradition. Those bound by tradition and inside a paradigm of do’s and don’ts who give way to an upward stream, find transformation, and a new supernatural, empowering paradigm for their lives.
>Spend time in His presence and you won’t be as resistant to change.
> Certainly, some people may not understand the visions God has given me, just as I may not understand theirs, but I’ll always hold and stand firm on the truths and the promises He’s given me because He lines them up in my life with the Word. What eternally matters is His Word, which is steadfast and true. My visions may fade away but God’s Word never will.
>Many people don’t see what’s happening in the spirit realm, viewing things only from the physical realm. This is one reason why there’s so much division right now. I have found that many are judging things by what they see or hear in the natural, by their natural senses, to feelings, or without having relevant supernatural experiences themselves.
…the issue of revelation is so important. If someone has an angelic encounter that results in the fruit of greater love for Jesus, then we should be invigorated. Excited. If something is expressly forbidden in scripture, then an appropriate process must take place. That process doesn’t include loveless warnings for others to avoid that person… but, rather it includes dialogue, a heart to heart talk, an invitation of appropriate overseers and other steps that help us gain crystal clear insight on the situation. We then go to great lengths to serve that person well through the process.
What people are doing to Todd, even if he has made some mistakes, and even if he adheres to different views of scripture on the non-essential level, is not Christian love at all. I just don’t get it. I have yet to hear Todd mention one belief that is strictly forbidden in scripture. He adheres to all of the absolutes of scripture as far as I can tell.
June 13, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Kim
“Some may say that what Todd does is unbiblical, though the more accurate way to say it is: I have a different view from Todd on some issues.”
We are test all things against the Word of God, so it is not my view, it is God’s.
“Revival shakes paradigms”
Paradigm shift which is a new age phrase which means a new enlightenment, new thought, new revelations, new experiences. Out with the old.. in with the new. What scares alot of us is when there are enough “enlightened”, “empowered”, “anointed” folk out there….the stage will be set for the one world religion. That is what all this boils down to.
What is happening is merely what is predicted in the Bible as apostasy not revival.
Revival is Repentence. A crying out to God for forgiveness. Revival is realizing how much we need God because we are so sinful.
“I have yet to hear Todd mention one belief that is strictly forbidden in scripture.”
Doesn’t have to. His uncontrollable shaking, his head butting, his violence, kicking, is not God-like.
June 13, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Mary B
“I have yet to hear Todd mention one belief that is strictly forbidden in scripture.”
I would say his being taking to heaven and having angels lay him on an operating table is demonic or a fabrication. Having angels make incisions down his torso and stuffing white boxes in his belly is insane.
And that doesn’t include Emma his female angel. Todd is either insane or one big liar. Imparting “the anointing” is unbiblical.
June 13, 2008 at 10:22 pm
John Burton
>We are test all things against the Word of God, so it is not my view, it is God’s.
Of course we do, but we do interpret non-absolutes differently. That’s one point that is strange to me… that it seems as if some of you might not understand this. Am I missing something? There are many wonderful people who love Jesus who disagree on all sorts of theological points? Right?
>Paradigm shift which is a new age phrase which means a new enlightenment, new thought, new revelations, new experiences.
Jesus shook paradigms. It must happen again. There is so much man-made tradition out there… also, fresh moves of God result in encounters… some people may have experienced those encounters, while others will say they are new. Some have never felt God the way others have. Reformation in the church will result in fresh freedom for the Holy Spirit to manifest in power.
>Doesn’t have to. His uncontrollable shaking, his head butting, his violence, kicking, is not God-like.
That’s your opinion. It’s not biblically based. That’s a ‘deduction’ of scripture at best, but certainly not an interpretation or an absolute.
>I would say his being taking to heaven and having angels lay him on an operating table is demonic or a fabrication.
Again, opinion. You simply cannot find scripture that speaks against this.
Keep in mind, people that are zealous and hungry for more and more of God, those who are praying night and day, pursuing the depths of God… they will seek and find. The discern spiritual things spiritually… they hear God’s voice, dream dreams and have visions… this is for all of us… but for those who are logically driven sometimes have a tougher time pressing through to encounter… God is emotional and tangible… he is to be known intimately. This is why lengthy, passionate, experiential prayer that’s bathed in the Word of God is so powerful. God does things that blow us away and shake our paradigms.
June 14, 2008 at 4:33 am
Lee
John,
Please define the ‘absolutes of scripture.’ Once you do that then we can have a real starting point for dialogue.
Thanks,
Lee
June 14, 2008 at 8:32 am
Lee
Here is a point to point refutation of Bentley’s letter:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/response-on-todd-bentleys-recent-defence-to-public-criticism/
Here’s one excerpt:
“Apart from the question, is Todd really a Christian, and does he in fact reject the cross of Christ because of his antichrist and gnostic teachings, this is not the Bible’s point. All visions and revelations – Christian’s or otherwise – have to be tested. They can be deceptive. Paul commands it. John commands it. Todd is not at all concerned about it. But I thought he said earlier things have to be tested! The Bible also says there are wolves with sheeps clothing, angels of light and false prophets – in the church.
What Todd is saying is, Christians cannot be decieved, so go with the flow and accept my revelation. I am beyond deception. Arrogant, decietful and manipulative man who twists the word of God for his own evil ends. But Ah! what shall his end be! He is decieved and a deceiver. If he knew his true end, he would be truly on his face crying aloud to God for his mercy and forgiveness.
Furthermore, the Colossians heresy indicates that it is not just pagans who are at harm of accepting the heresy of overly-focussing on angels but the church were. This is what Paul warned them of.
Rejecting the cross of Christ can be far more sublte that saying ‘I do not believe in the cross’. Rejecting the cross of Christ can add onto the finished work by works, or replacing or undermining Christ by experiences with angels and talk of portals and ladders.”
Miriam takes a STAND for the TRUTH!
June 14, 2008 at 8:44 am
Kim
“Keep in mind, people that are zealous and hungry for more and more of God, those who are praying night and day, pursuing the depths of God… they will seek and find.”
Yes, this is wonderful. BUT the supernatural experieces many are having are paranormal, metaphysical experiences which easily occur from the desire of experience instead of repentance and Christlike behavior. If one seeks a paranormal experience Satan will glady provide it.
In Dave Hunts Book “Occult Invasion” he states:
“It should be of more than passing interest to everyone that Jesus Christ and the prophets and apostles, whose words are recorded in the Bible, predicted the burgeoning interest in generic “spirituality: which we are experiencing today. As we shall see, they foretold a time of unprecedented interest in the mysterious and apparently miraculous. Yet they warned that these “last day signs and wonders” would be a great delusion that would prepare the world and a false church for Antichrist.
We are also seeing as a part of the “signs and wonders” movement a burgeoning “church growth” movement..and a “spiritual warfare” movement, all working toward the same goal. Few are those who dare to see any connection between these movements within the church and the false “signs and wonders” which the Bible prophesies for the last-days apostate church. Those who call themselves Christians are just as reluctant to admit the possibility of any satanic involvement in their “miracles” as the secular world is to admit the possibility of such development in the human potential and psychic powers it seeks to develop. ”
you said….
” they hear God’s voice, dream dreams and have visions…”
These things can also be accomplished using Transcendental Meditation but it is not God that is being reached here. Satan comes as an Angel of light and those who glory in themselves have been deceived. Those who think they are spiritually advanced…..pride.
I have seen of the books suggested in IHOP’s library. These mystics advocate metaphysics.
June 14, 2008 at 4:57 pm
John Burton
Question- how do you encourage believers to embrace true supernatural encounters? You say often that New Agers and others can also experience them… which is true. However, they are the counterfeit. How do you promote the true experiences? Dreams, visions, etc.
And regarding the absolutes of scripture… that’s a key point. If we could understand this, sites like this would have quite a different focus. Much healthier, in my opinion.
Hopefully, an answer can finally be offered to the question, “Can we as Christians disagree on certain theological issues?”
Simply, if one were not to adhere to an absolute of scripture, he would be a non-Christian. That’s why it’s scripturally easy to see that Mormons or Jehovah’s Witness, etc. are not Christians. They disagree with biblical absolutes.
Here’s the long version… sorry for the length, but it may give some insight:
We believe it is absolutely critical for Christians to unite for a common purpose- THE GREAT COMMISSION.
While we may disagree on certain issues, the greater importance is that we ensure as many precious people enter into a wonderful eternity as possible.
Some issues are absolutes- we take them to our grave. Other issues are opinions, deductions, interpretations, etc. If we can agree on the absolutes, and then agree to disagree on issues that are not absolutes, then we will go a long way toward seeing the Great Commission fulfilled in our generation!
When discussing ministry styles, it’s important that we identify exactly where the particular topic rests within the whole spectrum. Let me explain. I believe there are several different levels in which we can examine structure or style of ministry. Most church bickering and splits would be eliminated if we understood this. Unity would thrive and the Great Commission would be more quickly achievable. The first level is:
‘Absolutes’- Every Christian church must agree on the absolutes. If a church doesn’t accept an absolute, it would certainly not be considered Christian. Absolutes include the fact that Jesus is God, he rose from the dead, salvation only comes through him, there is one true God, Jesus is coming again, sin separates us from eternal life, etc. We can never sacrifice an absolute. We must never waiver from our position here. Churches that accept the absolutes can get together for prayer, fellowship, etc. Examples of this are Promise Keepers, Christian concerts, days of prayer, etc. In Colorado Springs we had the nations largest National Day of Prayer event. Thousands got together to pray for our city in a downtown park. We all agreed on the absolutes.
‘Interpretations’- Next on the list, resting on the foundation of absolutes, are interpretations. These are scriptures, that we form opinions or sometimes even doctrines on. They are always taken within the context of the passage. They are fairly focused ideas, but since they are interpretations, there can sometimes be disagreement. The problem is when we allow this disagreement divide the church. Examples of interpretations can be- everybody is meant to speak in tongues, pre-trib rapture, etc. Since these aren’t absolutes, it’s ok to disagree. It’s tragic when people deem certain movements and people as ‘false teachers’ because they disagree with them over interpretation.
‘Deductions’- Deductions are broader and more general than interpretations. You can arrive at a deduction when you read a larger portion of several passages of scripture. Doctrines should never be made on deduction alone, but there is much liberty to allow your ministry to include deductions as long as they agree with and enhance the absolutes. As with interpretations, it’s certainly negative to identify deductions as un-biblical when they in fact don’t contradict an absolute.
‘Subjective Opinions’- Broader still, subjective opinions are arrived at by individuals that experience certain insight when searching the scriptures coupled with living out what they find. Of course, subjective opinions must always agree with absolutes and must not contradict scripture or they must be thrown out. Subjective opinions my include teaching that hymns are more effective than contemporary worship or that we should dress like the culture that we are trying to minister to and relate to them on their level. This is where ministry style can have a lot of freedom to experiment by trial and error. Discovering what works best in your situation at this level should never be accepted as absolute truth, or even as a deduction.
‘Personal Preferences’- Personal preferences may have less to do with controversial scriptural matters and more to do with personality, likes and dislikes. For example, a minister may prefer to have a robed choir every Sunday while another may prefer a single barefoot guitar playing worship leader straight out of the 70’s. Another example would be to take tithes and offerings by passing a plate rather than having the congregation bring the tithe to the front of the sanctuary and lay it on the altar. The Bible is usually silent on such preferences.
‘Feelings’- Feelings would include simply what we like and don’t like. Can you believe there have been church splits on this level??! What color the carpet, or whether to use hymnals or a video projector has more to do with atmosphere than with anything else.
‘Cultural Norms’- This simply has to do with the style and system of a particular culture. For example, you may find loud ‘Amen’s!’ in an Afro-American church while it may be more subdued in another style of church. You will also find a lot of cultural difference between different denominations and different socio-economic classes. If every church were a hooting and hollering roller coaster ride, then there would be a large segment of society that would not be reached, and vice versa.
Sometimes scripture doesn’t demand something be done a certain way. If we all focus on the absolutes and resist creating divisions based on lower levels, we will certainly have a powerful army ready and equipped to accomplish the Great Commission. Understand, I am all for discussion. Iron sharpens iron. But sometimes, the scripture remains silent or vague. As long as we do everything we can to create healthy churches, we have a lot of freedom to work it many different ways.
June 14, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Kim
I cannot think of any scripture that “embraces” or promotes supernatural encounters. Although we are to desire spiritual gifts for the edification of the church, we are to walk by faith……
I love the Great Commission.
“Therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”
TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. Everything that Jesus commanded was spoken. Not experienced in a dream, or supposed in some trance, or seen in a vision, but by the spoken word that is recorded in the Word of God.
June 14, 2008 at 10:14 pm
John Burton
We are to desire the gift of prophecy… that’s an important scripture. God is revealing some key realities to his church. Warnings, directives, etc. Angels deliver messages for the moment we are in.
There’s a huge difference between knowing about God and intimately knowing God. If we are on the moon do we want to learn about the makeup of oxygen, or do we want to breathe it? Both are important, but to learn and not breathe will cause us to die quite rapidly.
Dreams are so important as well. We just talked about dreams tonight at Revolution House of Prayer. God gives warning dreams so intercessors can respond, for example.
I’ve had countless stunning prophetic words that reveal and confirm in astounding ways God’s directives for me. It’s a critical part of life as a believer. I wrote about this in my book, Revelation Driven Prayer.
God’s revelation via dreams, visions or other communication has resulted in some amazing and undeniable encounters. People getting dramatically saved, healed, etc.
June 15, 2008 at 11:01 am
Lee
God is revealing some key realities to his church.
God is revealing to whom these ‘key realities?’ Just select individuals? I have not heard of any ‘key realities’ except the ones already revealed in the Word.
And, John, I do appreciate you taking the first step regarding the essentials of the faith. I’ve been working on what I think are the essentials; and, I’ll post them when I’m through.
I can tell you, though, one of these essentials is the inerrant, infallible Word of God since Jesus is the Word made flesh [John 1:1-18]. Given that, I believe the canon is closed and no further revelation which pertains to the entire church at large [that has not already been revealed in scripture] is necessary. Our next revelation for the entire church will be Jesus’ second coming. Hallelujah!
I’m not one to have a lot of ‘super spiritual’ experiences; but, let me relay one recent, albeit rather small, experience.
I had a dream about a week ago which caused a bit of a stir within in me. I usually do not remember dreams the next morning; but, this one I did. I even mentioned it to a co-worker; but, I didn’t think much of it. A few days later I read on another blog of a someone else’s dream and the interpretation of that dream. Then, in an instant I realized my dream had some prophetic significance. Here’s the dream:
I was floating on a very calm ocean on what appeared to be a very small piece of land. I felt the presence of someone else with me; but, I do not remember seeing anyone. Next I saw that I was drifting near an island replete with palm trees. I thought that I’d just make my way toward this island. I had no fear or sense of urgency at all at this time. It was just like “Oh, OK, that’s what I’ll do.”
Then, I saw in front of me off to the left a bit as I approached it was what looked like a large rock just barely jutting out of the ocean. I looked a bit to my right and saw my ex-wife floating on the same sort of thing I was floating on. She was floating to the left while I was floating to the right of this ‘rock.’ Then, as we drew closer, I saw that the ‘rock’ was actually a very large crocodile! I saw the fear in my ex’s eyes. I sat as motionless as possible so as not to stir the crocodile; and, I floated right next to it without stirring it. I did not see my ex any longer. Then, I woke up.
As I read the words of the other blogger, I realized the calm ocean represented church buildings or just Christian gatherings in general. The croc represented those who’ve crept in unawares (wolves in sheep’s clothing) waiting to devour unsuspecting, undiscerning Christians who feel secure in the ‘calm ocean.’
I believe that I make it while my ex doesn’t. I hope, for her sake, that’s not the case.
So, who was the presence I felt yet who was unseen? It was the Holy Spirit!
June 15, 2008 at 11:03 am
Lee
I have a question based on your absolutes of the faith. Why are you discounting the Mormon’s?
June 15, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Lee
OK, I have the essentials of the faith as I understand them to be. I welcome any comments:
Jehovah God is one God in three persons (Elohim) known as the Holy Trinity: God the Father, Jesus Christ His one and only begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and conceived by the Holy Spirit fully God and fully man.
Salvation into eternal life is only through Jesus Christ as a result of His death, burial and resurrection on the 3rd day thereby defeating Satan and atoning for our sins. Christ has now ascended to be at the right hand of the Father serving as our mediator. Salvation is a free gift of unmerited grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ death also fulfilled the Law of Moses; so, Christians are free from this bondage.
If we believe the aforementioned and acknowledge the fact that we are sinners in need of a savior, repent of our sins, and accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior we will gain eternal life. At the point of salvation the Holy Spirit indwells each believer. Christians are a Royal Priesthood with the ability to enter the Holy of Holies to petition the Father in the Name (i.e. in the character) of Jesus Christ His Son.
The Holy Spirit empowers all believers; and, His presence in our lives is a seal guaranteeing eternal life [2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:13-14]. Evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit is by the convicting of sin and guidance into all Truth. He will bring glory to Jesus Christ [John 16:8-14]. The Holy Spirit gives believers spiritual gifts disbursed as He determines [1 Corinthians 12:7-11; Romans 12:4-8] and intercedes on our behalf [Romans 8:26].
Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh [John 1:18]. The Holy Bible is the Holy Spirit-inspired, inerrant, and infallible Word of God complete unto itself. The Bible will never be superseded by any other teaching and nothing should be added or subtracted from it; and, its full counsel is the way to live a full Christian life.
All Christians should have a part in the Great Commission making disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey the teachings contained in the Word of God.
Jesus Christ will return again to judge all people. Unbelievers will be separated from God and will be forever dwelling in Hell, while believers will be in God’s presence in Heaven.
June 15, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Mary B.
Lee,
Just curious, did you say that other person had the exact same dream as you did?
June 15, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Lee
Mary,
No, the dream was totally different. It was in the realization that his dream had prophetic insight that it was revealed to me that mine did as well. The thought just didn’t occur to me until then.
June 15, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Lee
Mary,
I welcome your comments on the dream — pro or con.
June 15, 2008 at 6:24 pm
Mary B.
Lee,
I am fascinated by the discussion. I think it is amazing that you were given understanding to interpret it. I am sure it was pretty painful for you as you gained the insight to it’s meaning. I completely believe that dreams can have prophetic meaning. But I am rather conservative about it in comparison probably to those of the charismatic persuasion.
I don’t pretend to know the meanings of dreams but I have had a dream that I thought was probably pretty prophetic regarding my family but I never really understood the meaning – well I think it was revealing to me the spiritual warfare that was going on with my unsaved family members.
Know you do have me wondering then, do you believe your exwife to be a true christian, or just a sunday go to church social christian? Or is that too personal a question?
June 15, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Lee
Mary,
That was the first dream ever that I felt had any prophetic significance; so, I never tried to interpret any of the others. Most dreams I forget by morning anyway. I’ve had other unctions from the Holy Spirit to do certain things. One was visiting my step-father last year and spending some time with him. He’s the only member of my family who I believe to be truly saved. He and I had some good conversations even though we are VERY different. The purpose of the trip is a rather long story with a surprise (for me) twist at the end.
I don’t mind talking about my ex. No, I don’t believe she is a true Christian; but, I’m not sure. I do know she regretted divorcing me. Her actions both during and subsequent to the divorce showed her not to be a believer at all. This is why I believe she doesn’t make it. Or, it could be that I’m to warn her. I’ve been thinking of giving her a call.
June 15, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Mary B.
Thank you Lee,
I didn’t mean to sound like I have dreams all the time that I think have spiritual meaning. I had a dream shortly after I became a believer . I just had that sense that it had spiritual significance. And then when it was repeated I realized it was probably something the Lord was trying to show me.
Thanks for sharing that. I will pray for your situation with your ex wife.
June 15, 2008 at 8:04 pm
John Burton
On first glance, those ‘absolutes’ you shared look great.
At one time, a ministerial alliance in my town used the Apostles Creed as their document to unify around. One pastor (a UCC pastor) refused to participate because he didn’t want to offend his ‘pagan and Muslim brothers and sisters’.
That’s an example of the absolutes of scripture in action. They effectively brought clarity to what Christian leaders were standing for… and the pastor that made that statement effectively announced that he was not adhering to the absolutes.
But, there are many, many people who adhere to those absolutes, but differ on many other theological issues. The interpret or deduct scripture differently. That ok.
June 15, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Kim
I think i already shared the dream i had on the Sign of Jonah site. I was looking high over a city and saw that it was covered by what i thought were black clouds. Then i was zoomed in and realized that what i was seeing was not black clouds but demon wings. There were thousands of demons, all focused downward, massing over the city… or now i know…IHOP. I had already been concerned about KC but didn’t know why. That is how i found Sign of Jonah. And that is how i learned about IHOP and started studing about dominionism…..i thought it strange that a ministry that had non-stop territorial type prayer would be covered in demons. I have been praying for this ministry ever since.
Lee, thank you for sharing your dream.
June 15, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Kim
On a different note, it is interesting to note as one studies the NT how the gifts change as time passes and as the church is established.
Corinthians was written in 55 AD. The gifts in Romans 12:3-8 are prophesying, serving, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and mercy, written in 57 AD . In 1 Peter 4:11 there are just two mentioned, speaking and serving. Peter was written in the early 60’s AD.
June 15, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Lee
Kim,
Yes, I do remember your dream. For some reason I was thinking it was Miriam who posted about that dream.
Interesting observation on the spiritual gifts. Hmmmm.
June 15, 2008 at 8:47 pm
John Burton
I’d actually interpret that dream differently. I was at Jimmy Swaggart Bible College the year Jimmy Swaggart fell. I sensed, prior to the news of his failure, a massive swarm of demons hovering. It’s strangely similar to your dream.
That ministry was undeniably the most effective evangelistic ministry in the world at that time. Thousands and thousands were getting saved. The enemy was sending a huge number of demons to attack that ministry.
I would suppose the same is true regarding IHOP. The anointing and presence of God… and the deep strategy and 24/7 intercession is a threat to the kingdom of darkness… and the enemy is responding.
June 15, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Lee
John,
Yes, my intention on these absolutes is to be as specific and all-encompassing of the Christian faith as possible; and, if anyone is offended then so be it. Jesus did not come to bring peace but a Sword. The Sword of Truth!
It was a great exercise; and, I will look over it from time to time. I will probably add more scripture references.
June 15, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Kim
In my dream, I definitely was given the impression that those demons were responding to an invitation.
June 15, 2008 at 9:06 pm
John Burton
That would be so radically hard for me to believe. The effect for the Kingdom that IHOP is having is off the charts. I’ve been around many ministries, and the humility, love and passion for Jesus is so powerful.
A simple theological disagreement (on non-absolutes) wouldn’t be enough to give license to the enemy.
Of course, my opinion is that the theology is quite right. This is just an example of lovers of Jesus- zealous Christians- seeing things differently.
June 15, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Lee
John,
OK, stepping back a bit here. Given the essentials of the faith as I’ve outlined, where do you see the problem in the Mormon religion?
June 15, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Kim
So are there statistics that KC is more Godly than its surrounding areas? I heard that there were many covens in the area, was told by a former IHOPer that witches were coming to the IHOP altars, and Zach Hensley once told me that witches left a dead black cat on his property.
June 15, 2008 at 9:19 pm
John Burton
I don’t know about that… but, I do know that witches will intentionally attempt to infiltrate places where God is moving.
Regarding statistics, I’m not sure what you mean. It’s the only ministry I know of that has been worshiping God non-stop for 8 years. That’s so powerful. I lead an internship here and you would be shocked at the number of people who are showing up that are simply saying how hungry they are for God, for an encounter, for intimacy with Him. It’s pure, raw and innocent. I absolutely love it.
Of course, IHOP is simply a ministry full of hungry yet weak people. This place is by no means the elite or the best. It’s simply Christians loving God passionately from a place of intentionally humility, a fasted lifestyle and zealous servanthood. There’s another ministry down the road that’s experiencing an outpouring of God recently too.
June 15, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Kim
John, I thought that the spiritual warfare movement was to “pull down strongholds”, so if the ministry is so powerful there, then i was curious as to the effect it was having on the area.
What other ministry are you referring to? Not the United Methodist church there that is engaged in goddess worship or the Unity church there, i hope.
I would like to add that i know that there are people desperately seeking God because they cannot find anywhere that truly teaches the Word of God. Many are terribly lost and need to find Jesus Christ as Lord. When they do find Jesus and are truly saved the regeneration in their lives is very evident and very amazing.
June 16, 2008 at 11:19 am
John Burton
IHOP isn’t really a spiritual warfare movement. It’s much more diverse than that. In fact, the warfare part of it is minimal. The key focuses are intimacy, intercession and eschatology. There are keen focuses on Israel, worship, “The Excellencies of Christ”, healing, fasting, etc.
Also, the warfare movement, which I’m very aware of, doesn’t always show immediate results. It may take years and decades before the breakthrough in the invisible realm is made… and then it manifests in the natural.
The other ministry is World Revival Church.
People at IHOP are most definitely finding God… it’s so amazing. You would be blown away by the countless testimonies that happen here… The Word of God is preached there in depth to an incredible degree. It’s very refreshing. It’s but one of many, many places on the earth where Jesus is exalted. And, again… we are all weak, hungry people who are growing intentionally day by day. Here at IHOP, being in the prayer room for 4-6 hours a day causes us to see more clearly the areas of our heart that need a touch… the areas of our mind that must be conformed.
I’m concerned with your general outlook… why does it have such a negative and suspicious feel to it?
When I mentioned another ministry having revival, your response wasn’t joy or hope or excitement… but scrutiny. You said:
>What other ministry are you referring to? Not the United Methodist church there that is engaged in goddess worship or the Unity church there, i hope.
You are excited about revival, aren’t you? A massive end-time move of God?
Also, remember… it’s not enough to learn the Word of God. We must be transformed by God Himself… the Living Word encounters us, breaks us, heals us, infuses us with power, heals us, etc.
There are many people who know and memorize scripture, but are nasty, lifeless.
We have to concerned with that just as we are the issue of violating absolutes of scripture.
June 16, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Kim
The others who have critized my ministry are usually new-agers. They are the ones who usually call me negative or suspicous, narrow-minded, etc.
I was “called” into the discernment ministry as one would be called into the missionary field. Just because you said another ministry is having a revival doesn’t mean i should take it at face value, that it is so.
Yes, i do want to see people in revival. I want to see them on their knees in repentance. I want to see them reading their Bibles. I want to see them hungry for the Word of God. I want to see their faith grow because they have put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to see them grow in their faith so that they can indeed fulfill the Great Commission which is to teach others to obey the commandments.
June 16, 2008 at 2:33 pm
JeN
Speaking of revivial. I have a friend who thinks that Iris ministries http://www.irisministries.com/ in Africa is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 🙂 According to their website they have planted over 6000 churches in southern Africa, 1000s are saved every week and they have even raised 50 some from the dead. They are a signs and wonders type ministry and Todd Bentley has had some dealings with them over the years. So the question is is what they are doing wrong? Are people really, truly being saved? What if people are truly being saved? If they are then they have quite a thing going in Africa. I am guessing that they are dominionists, they probably believe that salvation can be lost and the charismatic behavior really turns me off. Do I reject what they are up to because my brain can’t handle their doctrine? I have been thinking about this for the past several days and I don’t know what the answer is. I have a nephew who is finishing up seminary and is going to be involved in a church plant with the Church of England South Africa in the Cape Town area. This past weekend Hillsong opened a new church in Cape Town. They had over 3000 people attend 4 services. He was questioning what they were up to. People came to his blog and said what does it matter? People are being saved, Hillsong is there to share the Gospel and are at an advantage because they are known throughout the world. So I guess this kind of thinking runs in our family. 🙂 Does it ultimately matter how people are saved even if it happens in a way that isn’t within our way of thinking? I am tired of going around and around with this in my brain. I really don’t know why it bothers me so much. Help 🙂
June 16, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Kim
Your concerns are valid. I was watching some You-Tube videos of revivals in Africa….one was beautiful..The pastor was asking for forgiveness from God and people were on their knees. On another video people were calling out for the Holy Ghost but it was obvious that their bodies were being wracked with kundalini. The difference was stark.
Then one has to ask, does just saying the prayer, save you? Or does it take more….a definite repentance and a turning away from sin….I have heard some say that after they were saved there was not an immediate difference in their life but as they grew in the Lord, the changes in their lives became evident. This is sanctification.
Only the Lord knows what is in man’s heart. Only He knows for sure who is truly saved. We can only guess by the regeneration in their lives.
Something i learned when studying the Beatitudes struck me deeply. When you grieve over the sin in your life, you know that the Holy Spirit resides in you. When you ask the Lord to EXPOSE the sin in your life to you so that you pray for forgiveness and His strength to overcome the sin…again you know you are living for the Lord.
June 16, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Kim
Jen….Iris Ministries belongs to Rolland and Heidi Baker. Oh boy…
June 16, 2008 at 7:34 pm
JeN
Yes, I know. I don’t know much about them besides they are deep into the toronto stuff. I want to believe that people are really being saved, but I don’t know. I know I don’t want to work with them which is what my friend would like. Remember my husband’s experience with Reinhard Bonnke. He wasn’t healed physically, but he was spiritually. That was 26 years ago and he is saved and his life has been cleaned up. I think that alot of what goes on in Africa is suspicious. God becomes so magical, like it is a competition between Him and the witch doctors or something. There is alot of black magic in Africa. I don’t know. I look back at my 10+ years of dabbling in charismania and all I can see is massive confusion. My life was really cruddy as I was searching for more of what others seemed to have. I never did “get it.” I went from really knowing what I believed to not knowing what the truth was. I praise God we were taken out of that situation and I have been set back on the right track. I have no desire to jump back into that. Some people must be saved in spite of what is happening. I really pray that is the situation.